The “Bore Scoring” Scare: Something Doesn’t Add Up, Blackstone Interview

Welcome to Renthousiast Radio, the podcast where Will and Derek navigate the winding

roads of Porsche Obsession, exploring the good and the bad of Porsche ownership.

Grab your favorite beverage, pull up a chair, and join us, Renthousiast Radio, because life's

too short not to talk about Porsches.

Welcome to Renthousiast Radio.

I'm Will.

And I'm Derek.

And I am stoked out of my mind about this episode here, Derek.

We have the unique opportunity to interview, hang out with, chat with someone from a company

called Blackstone Laboratories.

They do oil analysis, they give Porsche owners really great news or really bad news about

the health of their engine.

So we'll get into all of the details of how they do what they do and trends that they

see.

But the reason I'm stoked out of my mind about something that sounds maybe not that

exciting is that we have, we're going to hear the pro who knows what's up, he's going to

dispel four of the most common myths out there that tends to scare people off from

Porsche ownership.

So, I mean, I'm getting...

All right.

We got to lay them out just for the people up front, because I'll be honest with you,

I was completely blown away by some of these because I thought I knew and I didn't know.

Some of the things that he told us we were wrong about, go.

Well, you hear about bore scoring on many of the motors that in these Porsches, so basically

you're looking down the barrel at a motor rebuild and almost all of them at some point

or another.

And he tells us that's just not the case, the data does not support that.

In fact, the data supports that a very, very small percentage of these cars have that issue.

It gives us those numbers, more of the cars that you've always heard are going to explode

in your driveway.

Yeah, dude.

He also talks about how the oil type, guys get really hung up on their disciples of this

oil type or that oil type and whether or not it's synthetic and does it have these additives

and all this.

And we found out that frankly, may not matter, may not matter.

To me, it's a marketing scam now that I've learned what I've learned.

I mean, it also finding out that maybe depending on your car and how much you drive it, you

don't have to change your oil for years in a Porsche.

So this one was great.

I mean, I was dead serious.

This one really was great.

Before we get into it, I just want to invite all of you check out Will's new GT3 video.

It is sick.

I mean, the car is killer.

His first intro drive where he kind of shows the ins and outs of how it came to be his

first kind of initial feelings hitting the road and maybe a little bit of foreshadowing

of what might be coming down the track as he gets into it.

Yeah, Derek.

So like right before we started recording, I got the estimate from my mechanic.

I just shot a video of like the PPI or post-purchase inspection process, cars up on a lift.

We have everything taken apart, the motors out of the car.

I got footage of that and I got my mechanic talking me through all that.

I'll publish that on the channel.

But literally right before we got started with this, I got the estimate for the parts

in the labor.

Let me just tell you, dude.

Yeah.

How much?

12 grand.

And before anybody out there likes to do the pounce, all the mechanics taking you for

a ride.

Like, no, he's not.

These are things that I have validated through his third party who knows what's up.

These are the things that need to be done at this age, this mileage, along with many

of the symptoms I'm experiencing.

So joy, joy, man.

You know what?

Joy, joy.

I'm not even mad.

It just is what it is.

Well, with a car like that, it's hard not to always be smiling.

Yeah.

Over on 11 after 9, that's all spelled out, 11 after 9.

Just launched in this past week, an intro video to my new car, an 05 Porsche 997.1 in

seal gray, a car that I personally think is super misunderstood and really overlooked

when you look at the 996 generation and then jump right to Will's Fantastic Guards red

997.2 generation.

So I get into that a little bit.

Just a first touch here in the snowy New Hampshire roads and kind of my very first thoughts about

owning that car.

So please go check that out.

I had a lot of fun making it.

All right, dude.

We got to get into this.

Welcome to Renthusias Radio.

I'm Derek.

I'm Will.

I'm Joe.

So everyone, we have a special guest today.

I'm actually really excited about this.

Listen, when I know growing up when I was owning all these cars, I would look at my engine

in my car and it was this black box.

It was mysterious.

And you buy a car, you drive a car, and you don't really know what the engine is doing.

Is it a healthy engine?

Is it a sick engine?

I mean, if it starts leaking on the ground, maybe it's a sick engine.

If it's blowing smoke, maybe it's a sick engine.

But what about if you have a car that drives fine, makes great power, but it might have

a sick engine?

This is the story of a Porsche owner.

This is what keeps us up at night because most likely we're in great shape, but we always

worry that we're not.

And so Will and I wanted to invite Joe on the podcast.

Joe is a senior analyst with Blackstone Laboratories, and he is also the host of the SlikTalk podcast.

Joe has done no less than tens of thousands of oil analysis.

So Joe, welcome to number one, welcome to the podcast.

We're so happy to have you here, and we're going to hit you with a lot of really uncomfortable

questions that keep us up at night.

And I hope you're ready.

Hey, that's what I'm here to do.

Fantastic.

So Will, we have the guy, you and I, we can be a little bit neurotic when it comes to

all the ins and outs of looking for cars, reading these forms of death, trying to decipher,

is this a problem that I really need to look into before I buy my car?

And lo and behold, Blackstone Laboratories has been fantastic and really has made their

name for uncovering or pulling back the sheet on potential issues for a healthier sick motor.

Have you ever used their service, Will?

I have.

And it was a long time ago.

So I'm going to go ahead and give you some, some full disclosure here.

Even the name Blackstone gives me anxiety about what they might find in my oil.

So it's one of those things where, yeah, so I mean, great company, great service.

And yes, I've used them in the past.

And I've also, so you send the oil off and you get this report.

And what I was always touched by was like how customized like the narrative in the report

is.

So it's clearly each one has to be written to the, to the actual sample.

It doesn't seem to be copy and paste, but to answer your question, yes, I've used it.

Yes, I've been impressed by the findings, but yes, also even the name Blackstone gives

me anxiety.

It's kind of like going to the dentist.

It's like, if you don't go to the dentist, you don't have cavities.

That's just how it works.

Dude, I will take 100 cavities over a motor rebuild.

Maybe that's a stretch.

How about 25?

I'll take 25 cavities around to rebuild a freaking motor.

All right.

Well, then we're really setting Joe up for failure here because we're making him out

to be a villain and he is not.

He's actually the white knight.

He's the hero because he's letting people know what's going on in this black box

that rides in their car.

So Joe, if you don't mind, I'm going to let you grab the stick on this and tell us

what exactly does Blackstone do and why would someone want to use your services?

Let's start a big picture.

Well, we test oil from anything that needs oil to do its job.

And the reason being when oil is in a system, it picks up metal, it picks up

contaminants, and so testing that oil tells you a lot about the system it's

taking care of, whether it's an engine, transmission, gearbox, we look at all of

it.

Fantastic.

So when someone reaches out to you when they send a Blackstone analysis in,

and what are they hoping to get from you?

Is it a report card?

Do you give them the clearance that your engine's healthy or do you just give them

numbers and they have to figure that out on the back end?

Like how far do you go when it comes to diagnosing samples that come in?

So people come at us from all different avenues, whether that is wanting to know

just strictly from a diagnostic standpoint, does my engine have a problem?

And maybe they're wary of a blown gasket.

Maybe they are concerned about bore scoring.

Maybe, you know, they're wondering if there's signs of an IMS bearing problem.

Or maybe they just think the motor is fine, but want to ask more of it.

They want to extend their oil change intervals safely.

They want to see is the oil filter holding up well.

So some people are coming at it from a purely diagnostic standpoint,

daily maintenance or a pre-purchase inspection.

Or it's someone who is, you know, just modified and want to know, hey,

is this tune, is the engine responding to it well?

So honestly, if anyone has interest in their engine,

for whatever reason, they'll come to us to see what's going on inside

without having to open the thing up.

That's so that's really interesting.

I know some people that literally every single oil change, they'll send a sample

into you. I mean, they're really that anal about it.

And then others, it's really just for a pre-purchase inspection, they'll send it in.

Do you, can you capture like the health of an engine just in one snapshot?

Like you get an analysis and can you tell like, let's use bore score for an

example or an IMS issue?

And again, because we're talking Porsche, right?

But like, can you say the health of an IMS or the health of someone's

cylinder walls by just one snapshot of an analysis?

Bore scoring is something that stands out in our tests, specifically in the form

of high aluminum, silicon and iron, because they're aluminum and

silicon cylinders with a steel coating.

So we'll look at all three elements and see how they compare to what we see on average.

And that's specific to the engine type you're sampling a 3.4, 3.6, 3.8.

Is it running a leaded fuel, unleaded, so on and so forth.

Now we're also going to pay attention to whether or not it's a new engine.

Is there break into consider?

Are you racing it?

But one sample can tell you when the levels are flat out scary.

And then if they are more in the gray, or if there's the context of break

into consider racing, because there are levels that think of it like blood pressure.

There's an ideal range, right?

And you can sneak in or out of that range.

And a doctor is not going to tell you you're dead, but they are going to tell you

where we want to keep an eye on it.

So there are levels akin to that.

And then there are going to be levels that are just smack dab average or better.

And in that case, we wouldn't assume a problem.

So bore scoring, absolutely something you can see in testing.

IMS bearing problems, that gets a little more vague.

And the reason I say that is because the IMS has its own oil supply.

We're only going to see oil from that or metal specifically from that.

When the seal has failed.

And at that point, we can see a lot of iron scary amounts.

And we're looking at it in part per million.

So for reference, something scary would be in the high hundreds and thousands up from there.

But the thing is, when you're at that point, oil analysis really isn't your

friend because a problem is rather obvious.

Bore scoring, though, you want to catch that early on.

And that's something we are effective at.

So definitely makes us a popular option among the porous community.

Okay. Okay.

Why do you want to capture that early on?

Because it's kind of my understanding that once it starts, it's not going to stop.

I mean, would you recommend rolling with it for a while or just give me

give me your opinion on all this.

Trends play a huge role because some of these engines can wear a little

differently than others.

And the only way you're going to know what's consistent or normal for you is

in testing, finding out what's normal from one oil change interval to the next.

And if you start seeing levels that creep up, the thing is, this is an evaluation

tool where people might be wanting to know, do I need to unload this?

Is this an engine I want to continue taking care of?

Is it past the point where I want to do the maintenance or the repairs or the

expensive, you know, option of replacement, you know, cylinder replacement.

So knowing where things stand means a lot for people, especially knowing if

things are starting to trend downhill, at which point they want to be prepared

and have all the knowledge about the health of that engine and where it's going.

Do you hear that, Will?

It tells you when you need to go sell your car to Caravana.

Yeah.

I mean, so I'm an honest guy.

So the problem is, is disclosed, disclosed, disclosed.

I mean, I've been the victim of too many piles of steaming shit thrown in my

lap, but you know, I kid, so, so the reason I'm asking you this is obviously

I'm just as an enthusiast interested, but literally some, so my office sits over

top of my garage.

And I think literally right below me is my 2009, uh, 997.2 is a Carrara S.

And, uh, as an owner, as a lover of that car and that platform, clearly, you

know, boar scoring is a topic and it relates to that car.

And so that's why, you know, I'm already getting anxiety here.

And you think here and you talk about that.

Well, you know what?

Let's joke.

Can we, let's get into it.

Cause this is, this is why I would listen to this podcast is I'm looking to buy an

X Porsche.

I'm, and the biggest question that we always hear is, should I get a base car

or should I get an S?

I really want the S.

S is super great, but I hear S's have more bore score than the base engine.

So we're talking like, say, in a 997, like a 3.6 or 3.8 liter.

What is, what's your take on that?

Do the S's actually have more issues?

So I think it would surprise a lot of people.

First of all, I will give a disclaimer.

Um, we're organizing our averages to the engine type rather than the specific

model of the car.

So if it's a, like for example, 3.6 is at large, 3.6 flat six.

Those signs of bore scoring, I just talked about aluminum, iron, silicon.

We've really only seen that combination testing high in about 2% of the 3.6 flat

six.

Now again, this is relative to the population of samples we've seen.

So, you know, I would love to say, oh yeah, we have data from every 3.6 in the world.

And I do think that a lot of people who are sampling with us are generally just

good with maintenance compared to the general population.

Like if they know about oil analysis, chances are they probably care about their

car more than, more than a lot of people and they take care of it better.

But yeah, just 3.6 and then if you want to talk about 3.8, that combination of

elements that can show bore scoring, 3.63% around there is what we found.

And another one, oh yeah, go ahead.

So how many 3.6s have you looked at and how many 3.8s?

I mean, certainly have a huge database.

I hear you that it's going to be biased, but it's got to be, okay.

I don't have that number right off the top of my head, but it's well into the

thousands.

Okay.

So enough, enough to matter, enough to matter is by far.

I think when you talk about communities that sample with us early and often where

we have really strong average files, you're looking at Porsches, BMWs with the

bearing concerns, whether that be, you know, M3, that any iteration of the S65

engine, I know we're getting off Porsche here a little bit, but I know what you're

talking about.

So if it's a, you know, Porsche community, BMWs, diesels, like the 6.7

powerstrokes, 6.0, ISBs, those average files are strong.

And that means that you're getting a really good baseline because not only have

those engines been around for a while, but the owners of those engines really care

about looking for these problems.

And that means we just have a good baseline for comparison.

Derek, have we gotten, we have like, this is the first time I've heard like

concrete research based.

I mean, because you go read the internet forums of death, like every freaking car

has VOR scores.

Every single 3.8.

It's not a matter of if, but when.

How many times have I heard that?

That you got to spend 30 grand on a motor rebuild.

Like that's it, you know, this is, this is invaluable.

I mean, hell, as an enthusiast, it's great.

I don't want to make it too rosy, but I will say even of those samples with the

high levels we've talked about, some of those probably include some break-in

situations, some might include some other issues influencing those levels.

But the fact that we're only seeing that combination test high that often, it

should make you feel better.

I mean, take care of the engine with a diagnostic tool like oil analysis, know

what's going on.

But it's more of a common concern than a common problem from what we see.

Well said.

Yeah, I agree.

And so do you, you find this rolls back into like with the 996, the 3.4, 3.6

liter, how about the 3.4?

So the base career and a 996 for those of you that are out there.

Do you have an idea of what those numbers look like?

I'm glad you asked because 3.4 is the other example I had, Andy.

3.4 we're seeing 3.8 percent thereabouts.

So higher than the 3.8 liter?

Those, that combination, yeah, a little, just a little bit.

So we're seeing slightly more examples, but, you know, in general, I think

that's true not just for Porsches, but like the BMWs I talked about earlier.

It's more of a common concern, but you can alleviate that concern by

knowing what the user oil tells you.

I'm, well, I'm blown away.

And I know this is super deep, nerdy, but I think a lot of people out

there that know these cars, like this is super important and super interesting.

I'm going to hit you with another one.

Will, do you have a question?

Go ahead first.

I, you know, I think it's, I don't know that it's even that nerdy.

I mean, maybe I've been given feedback that we're pretty close to our product.

And so we might be using internal jargon too much.

But, but I think about even somebody who's just, you know, maybe they're

looking for their first 9-11, they're maybe looking at a career ass of some

generation that we just discussed.

And, you know, they, they do their research and they don't know much,

but they trip over the same information that scares you and me and

keeps me up at night.

You know, so maybe they're not nerdy, but they want to get in, but then

they're frightened off.

So like, this is powerful information right here.

You know, I mean, this is a reality check.

And, and Joe, I get it, man.

Like, you know, I don't want to oversell it.

But I mean, this is the most like specific, concrete reality check that

I've had on these myths.

Yeah.

I mean, there are YouTube channels out there that 100% say that if not,

if it's not an if, it's a when they're all going to do it, especially the

S's, you're guaranteed an early death and a rebuild.

And so that's super interesting.

Your point is well made that maybe the people that take the time to send in

the oil samples generally are more fastidious in their car.

Maybe they warm them up in the way in which they say you should.

And maybe they change the oil more often.

And maybe they use certain oil, uh, formulations that are more

friendly to keeping away the poor score demons.

All that being said, if you have a sample size that that's that big.

I mean, that makes me sleep a little better night, especially when it

comes to the S's because dude, like with boxters, with caimans, with, with 996s,

997s, people are like, nope, if you're not going to get a dot two 997, then

don't bother because the dot ones are going to leave you on the side of the

road and your motor's going to fall through a hole in the earth.

And, and it is, it is great to hear that.

And, you know, I just picked up a 997.1.

And the biggest thing is the biggest static now.

I mean, you just doubled his pleasure.

Dude, I mean, well, I mean, but, but, but to be fair, let's see how the oil looks.

I'm falling into Will's camp.

I don't want to know.

So no, but, but honestly, I'm going to send a sample in because, but, but I

went through with the PPI and I'm going to get into all this in a later

episode with Will, but I did a straight up bore score.

And I went deep into the cylinders to try to find out from a visual standpoint

about where things stand, because I thought that there's a really high

chance that we were going to have an issue.

So that, that's pretty huge.

All right.

So that's 996, 997, 3.4 through 3.8 liter.

So I have a question for you.

Will, you've probably heard this too.

People go, oh, well, you have a 997.2.

Even the 991s are suffering from bore score now.

We're, we're hearing reports that even the vaunted 991 with a 3.4 or 3.8 liter

isn't safe.

Tell me, do you, do you see them even in the later engines and the dot twos and

the 997 and the 991s?

Do you see levels of bore score?

I mean, you can, but it doesn't mean it's any more prevalent.

Okay.

And the thing is, and when, and when we're looking at two, I think something

that also might put people's minds at ease is that, you know, these average

files, what I'm referencing, you know, that's even down to unleaded water

cooled iterations.

If you have an air cooled iteration of any design, you know, I've referenced

beforehand, the averages are going to be specific to that too.

So we don't throw them all, you know, in one big pile.

And, and just try and pick what's typical.

So in other words, you're not comparing a mid 2000s motor against a mid 70s

motor in terms of, you know, a scoring or metal accumulation, anything like that.

If there's a meaningful difference in design, then we're going to have a

different average file for it.

How, how reliable are the more modern Porsche motors when it comes to finding

particulate in the oil?

Do you generally find like, I guess what I'm asking you is in the water

cooled era of portion, I know you said that you're not model specific.

But what I'm really asking you is the question I really want to ask you is,

what's the most reliable motor when it comes to having the least amount of

problems are the modern ones, meaning the last 10 years as low in incident

rates as these early 2000s models that we're hearing you speak of?

We don't really see a reputation for rampant failure, I don't think in a,

in a particular iteration, you know, whether it's more so modern or not.

It's not like a situation where we are routinely seeing the failures that

encourage this oil analysis.

So I really couldn't give you a model where I say, oh, bulletproof more than

the rest, because honestly, in general, a lot of them look good for a long time.

And again, it probably ties back to the fact that a lot of our people are

better owners than, than the rest.

It's a solid point.

Will, do you have any, I don't think on that before I move forward.

No, I've heard enough.

I'm going driving now, dude.

No man, this has been great.

No, no, no.

So yeah, keep it going.

You know, do you have any best practices?

People ask you this all the time.

I'm sure, you know, when it comes to taking care of your motor, how do you

extend the life to the best possible extent?

Do you have any tips or tricks?

Well, I hate to say it, but oil analysis is a big component, obviously.

Without a diagnostic tool evaluating, especially the changes.

So that's mainly what I'm going to focus on.

When you're asking more of your engine, be it in the, the oil change

interval or use, if you suddenly start mixing in track days and you're not

paying attention to how the engine is responding to it from a wear standpoint,

that's where a lot of things can go left and also not evaluating contamination

ever until you're seeing something wrong on your end.

Like for example, a lot of people can't identify a coolant leak on their end

until it's already done a lot of damage.

So an analysis obviously is, is a big starting point, opening the door to

learning everything we've talked about from engine wear to contamination, how

your air, your oil filtration systems are performing.

But I think finding an ideal oil change interval for you, which again is, is

very much so something that you can accomplish with analysis, but finding

the right oil change interval and then paying attention to the presence

or lack thereof of contaminants and addressing them, not just letting it ride.

I can't tell you how many times we see people develop, say a slight coolant

leak and then they just run it and the coolant leak gets worse and wear

metals get worse and then all of a sudden they're looking at needing a new motor.

So addressing contaminants early on because there's nothing that kills

an engine like coolant, there's nothing that can, you know, leave that slow

death like fuel system issues, but then just simply making sure you're not

running the oil, the oil filter too long.

Yeah, I don't know what you're talking about.

My BMW says that I don't have to change my oil till every 15 to 20,000 miles.

That's when the car tells me I need it.

Are you saying that's not a good thing to do?

Not, not that.

You might even be able to run it longer.

So here's the thing.

A lot of people are fearful of OEM recommendations in the modern day.

You know, they see that double digit wreck and they immediately think, ah,

this is a ploy by the manufacturer to kill my engine to make me need another one.

Like that is the common concern.

But what I'm saying is you can actually use analysis to learn if that

interval could be longer, maybe you need to shorten up.

It all depends on how your motor is responding to the use it sees.

So when I talk about not running the oil too long, it's, it's not saying that

your interval wreck from the manufacturer is off.

People often want to exceed that and we can help them do it safely.

But when people don't pay any attention to how their engine is wearing and

if it's developing problems, that's, that's when longer intervals come into play

that shouldn't and all the problems that come with them.

It was a, uh, will you remember when BMW came and I don't mean to crap on BMW

because Porsche probably did it a little too, but BMW was known for, um,

all the maintenance is included through a certain amount of miles.

And, uh, it would, the big, uh, I don't know what I'll call it.

I'm going to call it a conspiracy was that when they announced that included

maintenance program, they also immediately extended the range of recommended oil changes.

Like, you know, it was like from 7,500, it went to like 15.

And just like Joe said, it was like, hmm, why is that?

Are you guys trying to save money or not?

So what you're saying, Joe, is do the analysis.

If it's a stop and go driver, they probably need it a lot sooner.

But if it's highway driving, maybe not, it depends on the driving characteristics.

Exactly.

Highway can involve longer intervals, stop and go main, main, main, main shorter.

But you won't know just if you assume that your motor is just like everyone else's

or that it's going to follow the way of, you know, like Porsche owners

assuming that bore scoring is going to happen to them.

You have to actually give them the data to know.

And so that's why using analysis to inform those interval choices is so huge.

You might assume that a common concern is a definite problem in your motor,

but that's not necessarily the case.

Climates, do you see more metal in motors from the northern part of the United States

or the southern part or internationally?

I guess it really doesn't matter.

But warmer versus colder climates, do you see a difference?

Not necessarily.

If there is going to be one area, we might see an engine produce, say more iron

than most from idling to warm up.

But even in those cases, people can track hours and that way we can know what's

normal for hours too, you know, when you're tracking miles, that only works

when the odometer is going.

But if you're an owner who say you live in a colder area, you do a lot of idling

to warm up, then you might want to track hours because that tracks all the use

in agencies and that way we can account for what a normal iron level is for you.

But by and large, we don't necessarily see that impact metals the way people think.

Really?

Okay, all right.

But what you are saying is idling not as good as maybe putting the engine under load

so you know you have some oil pressure getting the oil where it needs to be.

Is that what I'm hearing?

That and you can also just have more iron accumulate while the engine is running

just due to the fact, you know, the majority of wearing components are usually steel.

So while it's running, not necessarily under load, you can have more of that accumulation,

but it can be normal depending on the actual hours that the engine is running.

So I put myself through college working at Sears Tire and Battery and I was slinging

tires and diehard batteries and we would have an oil sale probably once a month.

And it was some no-name rebranded oil.

Will, it was hilarious.

I think it actually had a picture of a dinosaur on the container.

It was like purple or green or something.

And you would have people literally lining up, I forget when we opened,

maybe 6.30, 7 o'clock in the morning.

We opened up early, people at the door to get in and buy, you know, 30 quarts of oil for 79 cents

a quart or whatever it was back then because it was so dirt cheap.

I actually think it might have been reprocessed to recycle the oil.

So let me ask you this next question.

Do you see a substantial difference when it comes to

dino oil versus hybrid mix oil versus fully synthetic oil?

Do you see a substantial difference running those?

Believe it or not, you won't necessarily see an engine make more or less metal,

just due to it being synthetic versus conventional.

People get really wrapped up in additive packages, being obsessed with, you know,

this calcium level or that amount of phosphorus or zinc.

But key things is it a API certified product and is the viscosity appropriate.

If you've crossed both those off your list, you generally in good shape.

Because even like a synthetic, let's say, if you take two different synthetics,

they can have wildly different additive packages and they're both synthetic.

So you would assume, oh, you know, they're going to be packed with the same amount of molly,

the same amount of phosphorus and zinc, maybe, maybe not.

You know, you'll see some pretty bizarre additive packages,

especially with the more novelty brands, the more top shelf items.

But really the key thing is whether or not you're running an API

certified product with the right viscosity.

So not only do you not see a huge difference between all the different types of oil,

but what you're saying is even some of these specialty oils don't trust them

in terms of being that much better than just something that you get off the shelf for less money.

People have to keep in mind that additive package, a lot of that's,

you know, at the end of the day comes down to branding materials in a way.

You know, when you, when you advertise that your oil is great because it has

this particular ad of lineup.

Well, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't trust the oil's ability to do its job,

but does that ad of package mean that your engine with that problem is going to suddenly not have

one or that's going to wear better as a rule? Not necessarily.

Do additives ever help? Like if you, if you, especially with Porsche again,

just talking Porsche specific, is there an additive that you would say is beneficial

for Porsche motors? Not necessarily beyond what's in the oil to begin with, because the

oil is going to have the additive for detergent dispersant purposes, for anti-wear purposes.

When you supplement the ad to package, I don't think it hurts anything, but it also is just kind

of, you know, there's a limit to a good thing. I guess I should say, like there's only so much

phosphorus and zinc that your engine can take advantage of. You know, when you keep packing

more additive in there, it's like, okay, well, what's the engine going to do with 300 more part

per million of this element or that? You know, I think that you're generally in good shape just

running the oil. Now, some additives, they can serve a purpose, stop leak stuff, viscosity

improvements, slowing down a leak, using a dye to find a leak, so on, so forth. But

that oil is certified for a reason. It's because it has the ability to provide the anti-wear

purposes, the detergent dispersant that, you know, holds stuff in suspension so it can be filtered out.

It should cover the basis. And I, you know, I think that makes sense that you buy the oil and that

oil is going to do the job needed to keep the engine going.

What a, what a, that's great news too. Now, I can just get cheap oil.

Simplifies things, I think.

Well, it really does.

Yeah, between that and the fact that I have a 98% chance of my motors just fine even at 85,000

miles. I mean, this has been a great day.

Test it, baby.

Will is all smiles over there.

I'm not so sure that I'm interpreting all this correctly. Of course, I'm having a little fun,

but that's cool. Hey, so I have another question for you. It's a little bit of a different angle.

And this is something that I've wondered about, like as a user, as a customer, you know,

so I send my little container of oil off to you guys.

Like what happens? Is it showing up in a mail slot and you got some scientists behind the scenes

carrying it into some clean lab? Like talk me through what actually happens on your all set.

Actually, before that, how do you get that little cylinder? Like where do you find it?

Like how do I get something to you?

Yeah, so you can order a free test kit right off the website.

We're going to send you a test kit that also has a shipping and handling included.

So all you need to do is just send us the oil and we're charging for the actual analysis,

the report you receive. So once the sample arrives and most of them are going to come to us through

the post office, unless you've overnighted one, which I should say if you're interested

like a pre-purchase inspection and you need those results next day, then absolutely overnighting

isn't your best interest because someone from FedEx or EPS, they're going to walk in and hand us

the sample. Whereas I don't think people understand the volume we get from the post office. We're like

bags and bags of hundreds at a time might be delivered. And if you need news the next day,

well, okay, I got to go find a needle in a haystack. But they're going to arrive,

like I said, most of them from the post office in a great quantity.

Then we're going to unpack them. We're going to see who sent us the sample,

make sure it's under their account, set it up for testing. Now set up means divvying up

that sample volume, which is three and a half ounces, between what we need for each individual

test. So we're going to set up in the lab, have our lab techs make sure we have the right amount

of oil for each and every test. If we don't have enough oil for every test, we'll let you know,

we'll test what we can, but best practice is to fill out the bottle. And then we're going to run

our testing. The data is then going to come to someone like me who is going to evaluate it. And

then I'm going to write the report, then we'll send it off to you. In that process, right now,

our turnaround time is about five days. It can fluctuate depending on time of year, colder

months for people don't want to change the oil, or they just haven't been out driving much. Maybe

we won't see as many, but you can bet the warmer the weather gets, the busier we are.

That makes sense. So you have a quick turn. As long as it's overnighted to you, does that kind

of put it at the front of the line? Will that get it back to me the same day or the next day?

If you need that news as soon as possible, a day or two, then overnight is the way it go. I say

just because of the fact that, like I said earlier, they hand it to us individually. So I know exactly

what you need when, and that's why it's quicker that way. But in general, our turnaround time is

still pretty good even with the post office. What does that cost again?

Yeah, so our standard analysis is $40. So that includes checking for wear medals,

signs of like coolant, fuel, excess dirt, checking your viscosity, seeing if the oil filter is

keeping solids low, all of that's wrapped up in a standard analysis. And that really does cover the

basis for most people. And then you can add from there and do you do other oils from the car,

gearbox oil, etc. Yeah, so whether it is a transmission that is running ATS,

gear loop, you need to test the differential oil, coolant, or if you need to look at gasoline,

you know, we look at fuels because often people will run into cases where they thought they

bought some bad fuel or it can be an insurance situation, someone needs to file a claim, Nissan

needs to decide if they're going to honor your claim because the wrong CVT fluid is in there,

it really does run the whole spectrum. Interesting. And do you also look at oil filters?

We do filter analysis as well. So if you were to send in like a section of filter pleats,

we can evaluate the metals and the benefit there is mostly for the aircraft community

that they comprise most of our filter business, but whatever filter it is, again, much like oil,

we can look at it, see what's there visibly, what the metals are, you know, if it's steel, aluminum,

brass bronze, if you have, you know, anything visible, that's where a filter analysis comes

in handy because the oil analysis is stuff that's too small to see with the naked eye. So

a little different, sir. I actually have, well, I know we're running low on time, but I do have

one question for you that is always something that comes up to me and I'm never quite sure if I know

the right answer. So here I'm going to ask you, Joe, up here in New England, we put our cars away

for the winter, at least as good boys we should. And do I change my oil before I put my car away

for the winter? Or do I leave it and then change it first thing in the spring before I get going?

I wouldn't change it unless I had accumulated the mileage I wanted, because another thing that I

think is just good news for most owners, Porsche or not, the oil is not going to break down just

from time. It's not going to accumulate acidity or moisture just by sitting in the sump. It only

gathers up metal and loses its effectiveness when it's actually doing the job of cleaning and

lubricating. And that's not happening when it's sitting. So if you were to dump good oil,

just because it's time of the season, I put 200 miles on it and it's going into storage, well,

okay, you didn't do anything wrong, at least for the engine's health, but miles are what matter.

So get the miles or if you're tracking hours or track days, so on and so forth. Get the use you

want and then change it. I mean, look, Derek, we are fortunate to have a man who has the facts

sitting here on this podcast and he has dispelled like three or four of these rumors. You get these

people on the forums and Facebook groups where they are definitive authorities and they're going

to tell you how the oil is going to do this, that or the other, like fear mongering and it's worse.

Dude, I feel like up is down, left is right. Joe's throwing his curveballs because I think I know

what he's going to say and then he's like, no, don't worry about that. It's fine. Yeah, I mean,

I mean, I'm sure you look, you got to take care of your stuff. Okay, fundamentally, but all these

like these myths that float around out there. And as I'm listening to him talk, I'm thinking about,

you know, I can't remember specific posts, but just the tone of some of these posts of these guys

that are weighing in, like they have all the answers and they're so definitive in the things

that he has just told us very factually just aren't true, you know. So, so, so Joe, all right,

let me, I'm going to push you a little bit further. You drive your car 300 miles a year.

It's a Sunday Queen. You get it out. Can you, can you literally push your car for three years

between oil changes? Four years if you're under 2000 miles in four years time?

I think I just looked at, it's funny you asked me this question. I think I just looked at a,

it was a Mustang. I believe they ran that oil for I think seven years.

And maybe like three to 4000 miles looked great. And for me, it would be the same story

in the sense that I just don't have reason to worry because what's the oil doing? It's not

getting dirty. It's not picking up metal just from sitting and also the ad to package doesn't just

expire. I mean, these aren't eggs. So, yeah, I wouldn't have reservations at this time.

Yeah, but why does Porsche say you got to change it every X number of miles or every year?

Why do they say that?

Truth be told, I'm not, they got, they got put something. They have to put some sort of deadline.

I mean, and that goes for not only them, but every manufacturer, you know, it's going to say one year

or 12,000 miles. I'm like, what, what sense does it make if I only got 1000 miles with the years?

Like, why? I honestly, I think they have to draw a line somewhere. And at the end of the day,

an owner is never going to go wrong by just changing it. It doesn't make sense. It's,

they are going wrong in terms of, you know, their wallet and, and, you know, obviously losing good

oil. But I think at the end of the day, you're always going to be playing it safe. If you just

change it based on a year, but here's the thing, like what if, what if that year involved 30,000

miles? I mean, it just makes sense to go to the data after a certain amount of miles,

rather than days where you may not have been driving at all.

If you had to pick on average Joe, you had to pick on average one mileage that you would recommend

someone with a sports car change their oil at, just give me like a number. Is it 3000 miles, 7,000

miles, 15,000 miles? And I know it's very dependent, but like I'm asking for an average of like,

if, if, if I gave you a Porsche 911 in your mind, you'd do your analysis, we're going to say that

right off the bat. But then you would be like, you know what, just to feel safe so I can sleep

at night and I'll cuddly in my bed. I'm going to change your oil at this mileage. What would it be?

There's never one size fits all. It's all specific. So like for example, I can look at some samples

where a 911 owner might do 3000 to 4000 miles and mix in three track days. And then I'll look at one

owner who maybe they just don't know how to drive that well, may end up doing four track days and

500 miles and guess who's sample looks worse. So it really does come down to a case by case basis.

And yet again, it's why like every engine has its own story. And you need to understand what's

what yours is. It's not Dave's down the street. And for good reason, you're not Dave. So, you know,

you just have to go there, go the numbers. All right. Any final wisdom that we need to be that we

need to be aware of, at least as it relates to Porsche. Be careful what you read on the internet.

And don't trust samples that are not yours, but also be wary of opinions on the internet that

are interpreting data. And it's not who actually brought you the data. I can't tell you how many

times people will will base opinions off of their own analysis. They'll feed a report through chat

GBT. I've been dealing with that recently, and have actually had to yes, I've had to go to war

over AI recently. And I'm just really glad to report that fear not AI has not won yet.

I had a guy who next week, next week, another week, we're putting it off a day.

I had told him that his engine looked fantastic. This was a Toyota. And he didn't tell me he was

worried about bearing problems, but he was. And then he fed his numbers through chat GBT.

And it told him that lead was his bearing metal. And lead was zero. And he goes, see, my bearings

are great. And I was like, well, I got good news. I got bad news for you. Good news is your bearings

are doing well, but they're made of aluminum, not lead. So make sure you actually go to who's

providing the data and ask them how it's going. So yeah, it's just like I was told, coming up as

a kid, be careful what you read on the internet and don't trust a forum more than you would the

cold hard facts that come with analysis. Love it. Love it. This has been a great one. I mean,

for me, isn't like an individual owner. I'm psyched there.

My hair's blown back. I'm not going to lie, Joe, like there are a lot of things that, you know,

I'm going to use my air quotes conventional wisdom has has told us forum wisdom has told us

that is really just kind of old wives tales. And the guy with the numbers sitting behind the desk

doing these reports is saying, well, that just isn't so. And I can't tell you how valuable this

podcast has been for me in terms of informing how I'm going to, you know, craft my ownership.

And I'm not just saying this to blow smoke, Joe, but I am going to be getting some kits and sending

them in because just to get a baseline on my cars, it would be fantastic to really know where

things are at. Fantastic. We'll put my name down on the slip and I'll check in myself.

That is white glove service. Well, I appreciate that, Joe. I appreciate you.

Thank you so much for coming on Renthousias Radio. And I'm sure this is going to generate

some questions down in the comments. And so if you folks have those burning questions,

we'll definitely get Joe on again and we can hit them up with another rapid style.

Is it right or is it wrong? So thanks again, Joe. I appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you guys.

And that's a wrap for this episode of Renthousias Radio. We hope you enjoyed diving deep into the

world of Porsches with us today. And if you enjoyed today's show, be sure to check out previous

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The “Bore Scoring” Scare: Something Doesn’t Add Up, Blackstone Interview

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oil analysis

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Porsche 911

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engine wear

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engine under load

oil pressure

hybrid mix oil

fully synthetic oil

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