The Smoking Tire’s Zack Klapman on Overhyped Porsches and Real Drivers’ Cars

Welcome to Renthusiast Radio, the podcast where Will and Derek navigate the winding

roads of Porsche Obsession, exploring the good and the bad of Porsche ownership.

Grab your favorite beverage, pull up a chair, and join us, Renthusiast Radio, because life's

too short not to talk about Porsches.

Welcome to Renthusiast Radio.

I'm Derek.

I'm Will.

I'm Zach.

Hey, everyone.

We have an amazingly special guest with us this week, Zach Klatman of the Smoking Tire.

Before we introduce him, I do want to mention Will is having an amazing reaction to his

love letter to his Porsche 993 on his YouTube channel.

I watched it again, Will, because Zach, you don't know, but Will and I were at Lyft-Cacolt

and we were tearing it up in the North Carolina mountains.

And while we were driving at speed, Will recorded his impressions of his 993 because

that is his ultimate air-cooled Porsche.

And on my channel, 11 After 9, 11 After 9 all spelled out, by the time this podcast

drops, I will have landed my comparison of my 1972 911T with the last generation 911T.

And does that T carry the torch?

I believe this is the same car that Will once owned, and this will be fun to get into in

a future episode.

This is the 992.1 version.

And I didn't think it was as bad as you thought it was, Will, but we'll have that discussion

at another time.

For sure.

So, yeah.

The 991.2 for life, sorry.

That's it.

991.2.

Yep.

Died in the will of that guy.

Yeah.

Zach, we'll get your opinion.

So hey, listen, everyone, Zach Clapman from the Smoking Tire, God, it seems, I think you've

been there like what, almost 17 years as a co-host and producer with Matt Farah, one

of my favorite podcasts that I catch weekly.

And as a triple threat, Zach also is a photographer, a videographer and a driver.

He has worked on the Drive network and as well as a number of Hagerty and Tangent Vector

productions, and Zach is just an all-around fantastic guy.

He's joining us to give us his opinion of all things Porsche because there's probably

very few people that have driven the number of different Porsches, especially modded Porsches

in the California mountains of Zach.

But what I did want to mention, Zach, is Driver's Test, which is your new YouTube channel.

It is a fantastic program that's styled in the, I don't know, I'd call it in the kind

of the grand tradition of the British panel comedy show.

And Zach has his first episode out and I encourage all of our listeners to go out and check that

out because it's a fantastic way to spend what's about a half an hour.

So Zach, welcome to the podcast.

Welcome to Renthousias Radio.

Yeah, thanks for having me, guys.

And yeah, everyone, check out the new game show.

We're shooting another one this weekend.

But yeah, I've been around a lot of cars for a lot of years is how I think I would say it.

Yeah, you always seem to just, and I'll probably make reference to your podcast from time to

time because you guys have cars that are lined up as loners.

And also for a long time, you would drive listeners cars up in the mountains.

And so you were behind the wheel of some really crazy cars and specifically some of the older

Porsches that people like really mod to infinity and sometimes not always for the better.

Yeah, I've driven a lot of privately owned cars.

I wouldn't say I've driven a ton of privately owned Porsches, but funny enough, all the

air-cooled cars I've driven except for one museum car, I think were privately owned.

But I don't know if it's a Southern California thing or just car community in general.

Like Porsches, they're pretty mod-friendly.

The Porsche community seems mod-friendly.

They don't shun people that tweak their stuff the way other exotic or luxury brands might.

I think that's changing overall.

But for a long time, if you modified a Ferrari, you were banished from the dealership and from

the club.

But Porsche, you had our group, you had all these people that were always modifying, tweaking.

The cars are raced a lot, so I think there was a lot of that that was encouraged.

So I've been exposed to some water-cooled stuff, some air-cooled stuff.

Some of it modified with 700 horsepower and some of it, 912 is fairly slow.

Yeah, even though Michael Gideon is a huge fan, he was on our podcast a couple months back

and we had a long talk about the beauty of 912s, even if you're not going fast.

They are.

If you go into it with slow expectations, there's plenty of magic in the car.

I mean, it's the same thing as like a Miata or any momentum vehicle.

If you're just jumping in it to be thrilled by acceleration, you will be bored and disappointed.

But if you pay attention to how it steers, how it feels, the pedal placement, shifter,

all that stuff, you can definitely fall in love with the other mechanical magic.

Well, you look like you had something to say, sorry.

No, no, no. I was just thinking back, we talked a little bit about it, but I mean,

I know a gentleman who has a 912 and he knows what he's doing and he'll go rally with us

and we're all in like, you know, 993s, 964s. I mean, we will leave him behind in the straightaways,

but once the curves come up, the switchbacks, I mean, the dude's right on you, you know?

Sure. That's why I love watching like SCCA races and stuff where you'll have

Miatas and Camaros in the same field and it's just BOP stuff, right? So the Camaros got 450

horsepower, whatever it is, but it weighs 3,800 pounds plus all the safety gear. So the weight

disparity, I mean, the Miata just carries so much speed in the corners and that's when you

can really learn like you can go fast in more parts of a race track than just the straightaway.

Well, in the last week, two of my buddies, two separate guys just picked up 912, so maybe they're

getting hot, at least in my community. They've been picking up for a while. I think 911's got

so expensive and everyone goes, well, what else is on this parking lot? 912 has the look, it's

got some of the magic. They're really expensive. If you want to make them fast, it's incredibly

expensive, but you can get a pretty good taste, I'd say, of what the Porsche restaurant has to

offer without spending as much money as an air-cooled 911.

The interesting thing is, is that to really mod a 912, unless you're going to go like with a

Wilhoit thing and you're going to pile in this like really souped up four-cylinder,

essentially what you're doing is you're just making your 912 a 911. And people are like, well,

you know, what are you really trying to do? But the prices on 912s have been insane. I remember

forever, it was a 10-12 grand car. I remember I almost bought a 912, Zach, I was, I live in New

Hampshire and I traveled up to Maine and it was this little seaside town up in Maine and the 912

was being sold out of the basement of a church, like randomly enough. And I'll never forget,

it was red and I drive up there, get my U-Haul trailer and I'm pulling it on the U-Haul trailer.

And as I'm going up the ramp under the trailer, it's raining rust down onto the ground. As I'm

going up and I make it up halfway and like literally the 912 starts to flex and I just,

and so I just said, I literally stopped and I backed it off and I unfortunately backed out of

the sale at that point, but the car was going to crack in half. So that is the problem 912s,

everyone, is that the cost the same as 911 to fix? Yeah, one of my buddies who bought the thing,

he just sent me a little video yesterday, he's pulling the bondo out from underneath it where

it's rusting and he's pulling like shreds of newspaper for some reason, like 1970 New York

newspaper, I guess was stuffed in, I don't know how the hell it dropped out, but yeah.

Rust, whoa. Horse hair, everything, just stuff in there. Yeah, just pound that

panel out and then fill it with newspaper and slap bondo on it. Good Lord. Yeah, when you're in Ohio,

you just, you have what you have on hand and that's just what you use, it's fine.

I mean, that's just a, that's just like a, that's just a sketchy body shop, I think.

Well, he's a brave man. He's a brave man. What do you have in your garage, Zach?

I only have one car, I have a 2002 BMW M3. So I'm the, what's the joke, all BMW owners or

future Porsche owners? So I'm hanging on, I've had it for nine years now, which is shocking,

I think I've put 50,000 miles on it and I haven't spent so much where I could have bought a 911,

especially as the prices have increased, but I probably could have bought a pretty

high mileage Cayman at this point. So yeah, but with the proceeds, with, you know, just

the maintenance, the upkeep and some modifications too. Those weren't for that.

Have you done the big three on the E46 and three yet?

I did, I did, I did the subframe in the cooling the first month I owned the car,

because I knew I was going to take it drifting and I did not want to get stuck in the desert.

But the rod bearings, I don't know if it was like, I'll just wait a little bit,

it had 80,000 miles on it. I don't think they'd been done before. I just had them done literally

a week ago. So I felt like I was unborrowed time, yeah, you know, for a bit and no,

and my old changes were regular, no, there was no metal showing. And when they took the

bearings out, they looked at them and they said, actually, these look pretty good.

So maybe they'd been changed or I was just, I was always putting red line oil in the car,

I was doing, you know, good oil changes and stuff. And maybe I just took care of it better than I

thought I did. But now I have peace of mind that I can drive it hard and other things can break,

but not those things.

No, Will is a Reformed BMW Aholic and he owned his fair share of M cars as well.

Yeah, man. And I still have a really soft spot in my heart for E46 M3. I mean,

every now and then I start poking around thinking, man, I'd like to pick another one up.

But, you know, the nice ones are crazy expensive. I mean, I've looked at enthusiast auto group,

which is an interesting business, man, you know, you got 18 owners on them because they

keep buying it back and selling it. And I guess they have choice, choice examples, but, you know,

strong money. Great cars, man. I mean, theirs are like museum quality. And if that's what you want,

cool, but you are paying museum money for them. I mean, their cars, I think are like 80 grand or more.

And that's fine. But like, I, you know, Farron, I own M3s at the same time.

And mine was a lot, a lot, a lot cheaper than his, but I drove it harder and I played with it,

didn't care about it. And he had this museum car and like literally, I think he'd wash his hands

before he'd drive it because he didn't want to mess up the interior. So it just depends on what

kind of ownership experience you want to have. I feel like cars like that, at least for me,

they hold you hostage. You can't really go enjoy them. And Derek and I talk a lot about like how

individuals enjoy the Porsche hobby, for example, individually. And you know, I'm just, I'm not a

detail cars and coffee guy. I'm gonna go beat it on back roads, throw stones at it and enjoy it

type, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I think you have to be able to do that. I mean, our big, my favorite

meet around here is the Good Vibes Rectors Club. It's up a mountain, there's rocks on the mountain,

there's sand on the mountain. And I think what's cool is the people that show up there,

they at least had to drive 40 minutes up a big, big hill to get there. So you have to be willing to

endure, you know, some, maybe some damage from the environment, hopefully not too severe,

and put some miles on the car. I can't tell you how many people a week reach out and they say,

oh, I want to do these mods to my car. What do you think about this mod or that mod? And inevitably,

as always, well, I think I'm going to repaint it and then I'm going to PPF it. And I say,

don't, whatever you do, don't repaint it unless you have like real peel, or you have some serious

rust that you have to address. You just won't drive it. You'll be so afraid of messing up and

and getting some sandpaper on the front of the hood. And it's just not worth it. And to your

point, you get held hostage will by that beautiful pain or brand new rims. And it's like, you're

afraid to use it up. And then you're, it's just sitting in the garage, which is absolutely ridiculous.

Yeah. And unless you can, you know, if you can afford to repaint the car and PPF the whole thing,

and then go out there and drive it because you have this shield over the car, great. But, you

know, most people, I think if they hear the cost to PPF their entire car, you know, depending on

their economic situation, like they might then get stuck held hostage by their car in their garage

because they go, well, I can't take it outside now. The paint's too new, but I also don't want to pay,

you know, eight grand to PPF the whole thing. Dude, Zach, so I bought this racing yellow GT4,

I don't know, a couple months back. When I bought it, I kind of rolled the dice. It had

matte PPF on it. And, you know, you could kind of see through it, but you didn't really know what

was going on with the paint. And I don't know, maybe some out there liked that look. I didn't

like that look at all. So I paid to have the, I paid to have it removed. And I'm looking at the

thing and it is immaculate. It's like brand new paint. So I had the front clip PPF with the right

PPF clear. And the car has sat in the garage for, I don't know, the past six weeks, I haven't really

driven it too much because the paint's too nice. So I finally broke down literally day before yesterday

and dropped it off for full PPF. But that's money you're never going to see back. But I felt like

the car deserved it, man, you know? Well, if then it'll make you encourage you to drive it

wherever you want to go in any condition, then I think it's worth it. And, you know, PPF is cheaper

than paint. And we're getting a whole thing re-cleared. And you can peel it off and hopefully

the paint stays on the car. And then you could, you know, you get brand new, it's like having a

tear off on your goggles on a dirt bike or something like that. So I think it's amazing

technology and I'm glad it exists. Well, but it hurts to pay for it. The next owner is going to

be so happy that you did that. Right. Isn't that true? Yeah. Isn't that true? If I buy that car

from you one day, I'll go, thanks, man. Great. And I'll be like, I had fun and think I didn't tear

up the paint, you know? Thanks for being so fastidious. Yes. So speaking of driving cars on

road, Zach, let's, I want to start off with an easy one. And there is no right answer,

but are you a manual guy or a PDK guy when it comes to Porsche?

It honestly depends on the car and the environment I'm going to be in. So when I drove

911T, even the new 7-speed felt really, really good. Or no, it's a 6 now. Like that, that

manual felt really good in the hand. Gearing was a little long. So you didn't get to shift

as much as I would have liked. But I was in Georgia and the roads were great and the traffic

wasn't a big problem. And that was totally fine. But if I was driving it every day in Los Angeles

and mixed between commuting for 30 minutes, but also going to the canyons, PDK is awesome.

And I think when you're driving fast, it feels like race car. I feel like race car driver.

And it performs exactly how you want a paddled shifted transmission to perform. There's no

no real compromise. Whereas some of the ZF boxes, or like the lesser DCTs,

especially on downshifts, when they when they lag behind what you want and expect when you pull

that paddle, and there's a beat or three beats or like a full second before it downshifts,

now your brain is going, wait, why isn't it downshifting? You're not paying attention to the

corner. And then you are sacrificing something from the drivability and the joy of the car.

So I think it just depends. If I'm driving a GT3 RS, especially on the track,

I'll take paddle shifted transmission or a GT2 RS, like it's too fast. It revs up too fast.

It's too fast. But if it's a car with less power, or manageable power, or something special,

box or spider, something like that, then it's really fun to just row your own and have that feeling.

I completely agree. When I've ever done any track time over at like Pecla, or my local tracks here,

and I've been in both a manual and a PDK, I've definitely appreciated the fact that you don't

have to think. It's just, if you're in auto, it's shifting on its own. Or if you're blipping gears,

there's no weight versus to your point, your mid corner, and you're downshifting. And then it's

not there, and you're like, shit. And you look down.

Yeah. I mean, if you're, for most, almost every corner, I think if you're downshifting

mid corner in a manual, you probably should have downshifted earlier. But the difference with DCT

is you can do that. I mean, you can truly do that with a PDK gearbox, and it will not upset the

chassis because it knows how to match the revs and the speed perfectly. You know, human foot

and hand, like there's maybe a few people in the world that could do that really perfectly without

changing the, how the chassis set up. And I don't know if that's possible at true speed. So,

but, you know, once you can, once you know the track, or if you just want to have that added

challenge of, you know, breaking hill toe, downshift, downshift, like, it's an enjoyable thing. So,

if you're not out there trying to win races, then it's about, are you having fun? You know,

you're setting lap times, could you go a little faster with PDK? Sure. But does that

matter to you or to anybody you give a shit about? Probably not.

And for the kind of driving we do, Will and I, in the mountains of New Hampshire, North Carolina,

we definitely have leaned very heavily towards the manual cars, just for that very reason. I mean,

Will has a couple GT cars and has had GT cars. I have a base 981 Boxster and I have a 72 911T. So,

they're low horsepower cars that you just like to rev out and just keep in gear. So, I think those,

I think manual to your point really serves those type of cars. Yeah. Because you're not going too

fast. Yeah, I mean, it's exciting. How about rev match with manual? Okay. Sure.

Yeah, it's a fantastic feel. Oh, you mean having auto rev match?

Yeah, yeah, auto rev match. So, you can do what you're talking about mid-curve, downshift,

doesn't upset the chassis, you roll on. I'll call it a cheater feature,

but I'd be lying to you if I said I don't have it on at all times when I'm driving a car that has it.

It is, I think I was talking, I think Matt, I think Matt was at a launch talking to an engineer and

they said, it was like, you know, when the race car goes out, people turn off the auto rev match

and within like two laps, they turn it back on. It's so helpful. And if you're trying to go fast,

it's a really handy thing. I don't know, I've played with it. Sometimes I'll turn it on in a

car and sometimes if it has it, I'll turn it off just to see what the throttle response is like

under braking and, you know, and also like, does my foot and brain still know what it's doing?

So, I like having the option and playing around with it. And I don't think, you know, people

might poo poo that for not being hardcore enough or whatever, but whatever. Hey, man, it's fun.

That's all it's fun. It's all matters. It's fun. I think it's every car guy's dirty secret

that they love it, but they can't admit that they like it. I know that's how I feel.

You know, I want to be hardcore. I want to say that I heel toe every single corner, but

god damn, that rev match when you're downshifting is so convenient and then you get used to it.

It's like a heated seat after a while. You're like, I can't do without it.

I had a Boxster Spyder, you know, a 3.8 motor had the sport exhaust on it, the auto rev match.

I mean, I would just downshift just for the fun of it to hear it spin up perfectly

and to hear that exhaust. Yeah, it's impressive the way the engine just

lands right where you need it, slot it in. A bunch of companies have it. It's really impressive.

Hey, what do you think about... I want to talk about cars that maybe get too much hype.

And so, you have a beautiful chance to really test all the new cars coming out,

the cars that have all the crazy hype, whether it's the 911 R's or the Sport Classics or the

STs, which I think you were able to drive right back. So, can you give me an idea in the Porsche

world? Are there any cars that have hit the market that you would say maybe don't meet the hype of

like this Porsche like frenzy? It's like, oh, you got to have it type of thing. Is there any emperor

in new clothes? Well,

it's such a tough subjective... I mean, so much was based on economics, but I think

the new GT3 was overhyped in the sense that I just thought this is not a new complaint.

Like, I thought it was way too stiff for being the normal car or like the touring as well.

GT3S, great, that can be super race car stiff. And I mean, look at the thing,

it's got like shark fins all over it. But the fact that for a while they're using the same shock

tuning and setup on both cars, you're like, well then, you know, shouldn't these feel different?

So, I felt like, I think to a degree, like a GT3 RS is overhyped unless you track the car.

I see a lot of people in Los Angeles driving them to car shows and they're low mileage and some of

them are like, they take the wing off, but they leave the posts on. Like, I don't... I just think

you are compromising so much of your life. Like, you're just going to... And you're going to arrive

somewhere with a sore back driving this race car that has no frunk and all this stuff. And I think

a lot of that is because it is the Joneses. People are just trying to keep up with what is cool and

celebrated. But what they're missing or ignoring is that the journalists that praise those cars

are often at a track test. And they're going, yeah, this is the greatest thing in the world.

But if you take something out of the environment for which it's designed and where it really shines,

it may not be great in every environment. So, I think that would be one example. Like,

it's an amazing car, but it's overhyped as an everyday or every weekend sports car unless you

track the thing. Did you say that people are taking off that giant dinner table rear wing?

I saw... I should say people. I said one. So, now I'm doing that thing where people are saying,

I saw one guy, he bought a GT3 RS, but he took off the giant wing and it just looked...

It looked so strange. He was just trying really hard. I don't know.

Did he try to make it like a GT RS touring? He thought he was around the bend?

That is exactly what it was trying to be. But it still has the roof fins and stuff.

So, yeah. So, you've driven an ST?

Yeah, I got to go on the launch. Tell us all about it, man. I want to know,

does it meet the expectation, exceed the expectation?

Dude, it's amazing. It's amazing, which is, you know, prices rose. That's a whole different

discussion. But the engine, it feels special. The lightweight makes it feel special,

like flywheel, sorry. The lack of rear steer feels special. It's just the sound doesn't...

And, you know, Porsche is so good. It's almost to an annoying degree of like,

you know, if they got like 15 knobs on their audio mixer and they can turn them like

one little notch each or turn two of them, but leave the others the same. And you go,

well, this is basically the same as the other car. And then you drive it and you go,

actually, it does feel different. Maybe that's alignment, whatever. But with this thing,

with the light clutch, the light flywheel, the manual, lack of rear steer, like it just,

it did feel like a special car. And also, the biggest thing back then, and Porsche was really

smart, they had a GT3 Touring there. They let us drive them back to back because they knew they'd

feel distinctly different. And they had done a year of programming work on the shock dampers.

It's the same dampers as the same spring, if memory serves, but they just had people in a lab

just, you know, doing different things with their keyboard. They just tuned it and it was

much better. It was like the way it managed the wheel, the way the wheel took bumps or filled

potholes, the way it reacted, it was a more compliant ride, but therefore a more stable one.

You know, I drove, we were in the like southern part of Italy, the roads were pretty bumpy,

and driving with the GT3 Touring, it kind of like shutter skipped across one of these

modeled pavement sections, whereas the ST, you could feel the wheel like drop into the hole,

pop out of the hole, but without upsetting the chassis when it came back up because it was just

softer, softer compression. So that was the biggest standout for me. You know, they just took

elements of the GT3 that were really good, and they just tweaked all those little knobs a little

bit, and they made the thing even better. So it was amazing. I just needed to make a comment, Zach.

You, my friend, are living the dream. I mean, come on. That was a pretty good one. What was

committed to it? And then the ST invite came in, and he is a man of his word. He's like,

I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to bail out and bail out on Nissan and stand them up.

I'm going to go to that thing. He's like, that means you get to go to this. And so that was a

good time. But yeah, I'm very privileged. You know, this job comes with these benefits of driving

these special cars. And luckily, you know, Matt and myself and the other guys that started TST,

we were mostly focused on fun cars. We just didn't really review much like

basic transportation, economy cars, like we just didn't do that stuff. So we became known for

driving the fun things. And now that's pretty much what we get to test exclusively. So it worked out.

We make fewer videos than other folks, but we get to drive mostly fun stuff.

Yeah. You do not get invited to the mini van launches. So that's huge.

We don't. They also know that we're not there. We're not their market. So they go, yeah, I mean,

you know, your audience, our audience won't care. The minivan people know that. They also know that,

you know, me showing up to review minivan by myself isn't going to really display

the capabilities of the Honda Odyssey. Have you spent any time in a Dakar?

Uh, I drove one for a morning with Matt. We filmed it and that was pretty much it. So, yeah.

Okay. Just curious. That's, that's kind of my way. Well, everyone out there knows I'm a huge,

I, I love anything lift, like anything that's a sports car that's lifted,

you put knobby tires on something that shouldn't have knobby tires.

Oh, it just speaks to me. And so I think, yeah, it's just bad ass.

Dude, I've seen 996's with them. Yeah. People are starting to do that. People are starting to,

like, you know, put that, well, not aesthetic, aesthetic to a degree, but also that kind of

performance. They're putting them on everything because they're popular. So they can, you know,

modify one, sell it. But also it, dude, the sports car dynamics translate. That's why rally is so

fun. But if I lived where you live, you've your New Hampshire, you could drive the Dakar year

round. It's fun enough on summer days in the dry. And then when the snow happens or the rain,

dude, it would be so fun. So fun. I, I live about an hour and a half from O'Neill, O'Neill Rally

School. And so I've done some time up there and there is no better time than rallying around in

the mud. Correct. I can only imagine that a Dakar would be frigging sick. Yeah. Yeah. Because you

feel the movement, I think nowadays when you get PASM or any car, like the springs are stronger,

everything's really stiff. And you, you are more removed from the movement of the body. And the

Dakar and other lifted vehicles, that comes back because you have this extra travel. So when you

jam on the brakes from speed, you really feel the nose dive down or you feel it sit back when you

accelerate. It's like, it's like physics has a clearer signal with you and you're having a better

conversation with it. Yeah. But doesn't it take you back to when you were a kid, like on your

bike and you had like a nice bike and you're like, I am going to take it into this dirt pit and I'm

going to trash it. The idea of taking something that shouldn't go somewhere and taking it there

is, I think like every guy's dream. So here you have this amazing sports car that's built for the

road and you're going to go tackle dirt roads and it's going to do it and it's going to do it well

and you get to just hoon around corners. I just feel like that's just the most fun ever.

Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. And also like, you know, trucks and jeeps and things, those are what

we are, you know, quote, expecting to see in those environments. But I've driven a number of

off-road 4x4s. As soon as you get up to like 30-ish miles per hour, even if it's on a fire road,

it just doesn't feel settled. Like it just, it feels like it, I don't know, floats above the

gravel a little bit too much. Unwieldy, the steering response is slow because that's not what

it's meant to do. It's meant to, you know, go anywhere at a reasonable speed. So if you can

go to those same environments with a sports car and, you know, a turn is a turn is a turn,

the surface just dictates how fast you can go around that turn. Well, now you have the dynamics

of a sports car and you have the rotation and some of the agility and it's a fucking great time.

Well said. Well said. All right. Well, you've convinced me. I'm going to go out and get myself

a Dakar because I feel like it's the only thing I should do living here in New Hampshire.

Yeah, you should. Or get a keen safari project. Get the air-cooled version. It's also cheaper

than a Dakar. Yeah, but though getting more expensive by the day, there were a couple of

those down at Lyft. Some people drove those up and they were, they're a sweet in person,

as I've seen in the different videos online. They're great.

Zach, what would you consider undervalued Porsche? If you, let's say that you came to the end of

your ownership with the M3, not that it would break on you. I'm just saying you just got,

eventually you ran your ownership course and you were looking to get into Porsche.

What would you look for, for fun slash value for dollar?

Well, I think I've, I keep going back to either like came in GTS, you know, got the good engine.

It's a good mix of daily comfort, but canyon ability and like light track work. I think the GT4

is probably too stiff for what I actually do with cars. So GTS, I think is just a great value

mid-engine looks great. Two trunks, all that stuff.

996 cars, I think are still undervalued. I don't love the headlights, but they've grown on me.

The interior is actually my least favorite part of that car. But the performance you can get,

you know, if what you want to do is drive and, you know, join, well, drive first, join the club

third. Yeah, like a 996 turbo, I still love those. I think they look awesome. They look tough.

Drive one of those across the country. I think that'd be a very fun time.

Oh yeah, absolutely. The 996, as I do think, it's weird. They were always on the downs,

then they came up post COVID, then they came down again, and I see them starting to creep back up.

I think people just for that reason that you mentioned earlier, you know, the 997.1s,

which are essentially 996s with a new skin on them, are now much, much more expensive.

And so now people are just going back to the 996s saying, we're going to give those another chance.

The only really cheap for people getting into 911s, you can still get a 996 convertible for

like no money. They just, they're not that great looking, but you can still get one for like under

20 grand. Yeah, I mean, it depends on how cheap you want to go. I don't really like convertibles

when I owned a Miata. I think I put the top down like three times. It's just,

I'm getting more into it. I don't know if it's an age thing, but I just think, I think aesthetically,

most of them look weird, especially the 99, you know, any of the Porsches. I just, I want the

shiny metal on top to match the shiny metal on the bottom. And I don't want to like break up that

design line. So that would not be for me. But yeah, I mean, if you want to get in, if you really

just want to be in the 911 club and you can just really focus on having a flat six engine, sure,

you get a 996 convertible and start there. I think I'd rather just get, I'd rather just get a

Carrera S and then Safari it, honestly. If I was going to go real cheap, get a 996, whatever,

Safari it, and then you're going to have a really fun, really fun thing. That sounds so good.

Uh, maybe a 4S, right, Will? That's right. Will is a huge fan of convertibles too,

so he agrees with you. He's his favorite thing ever. What is your favorite generation of 911s,

Zach? Well, I did like, you know, you sent me these questions, which is good. And I did,

I started writing out, you know, 997 is my favorite, because it's a little bit smaller.

Then I actually looked up the specs and the size difference between 997 and 991 is really

like an inch. It's not a lot. The wheelbase is the big change. I think it's four inches,

wheelbase difference. That's a big difference, but the actual body size, it's an inch longer,

it's a little bit wider in the front. So I think I would say the 991, because I think it looks

so close to the 997, the outside interior is a little bit nicer. I think that would probably be it.

It's a really nice place to be. To be fair, it's a great place to be. Now, I've never driven

any of the 997 GT3s. That might sway me a little bit, but once you get in, in my opinion, once you

get into the S's, turbos, etc., like they're all so fast, they're all so good that if I can have,

you know, a little bit longer wheelbase, a little more stability, the front track bites a little

bit better, and the size is basically the same. Sure. I also really like the one gauge to the

right of the tack that became digital. You know, I think that's a really handy thing.

Some people hate it, but having a map that you can pop up there or some other data,

I think that was a really trick way to keep the kind of classic looking gauges,

but add just a tiny touch of modern tech to them. Yeah.

That's a solid point. Yeah. And then Porsche went whole hog, and now it's all digital.

Yeah. And I think they do a good job of it, and they use such good materials for it,

but I do miss the old, just having mechanical gauges and then one digital thing,

but that's just, but it's happening across the whole industry.

I know. I know. I was going back over, so this video that I put out, it'll be out when this

drops on the, on the T, on the Crera T, I was looking at one of my old GTS videos, and it had

the digital screens, but it had the analog rev counter right in the middle, and it just looks

so good because as long as you could fixate on that, you could have your screens to your point

on either side, you could have all your information, whether it was tire pressure,

or the map, or the, or the speedometer, but you just, you just still had that awesome

tack, and it looked like a piece of jewelry. It looked like a clock, and I really appreciated that.

Yeah, I agree. Will, do you think that you'll ever go to a 991.1? Will has a 991.2.

He's a, he's an avowed turbo evangelist when it comes to 911, but, but I'm a 991.1 guy.

You ever think you're going to dip that toe in?

I mean, candidly, I have not put a lot of seat time in one of those. I have a 997.2,

and then I have that 991.2. So to me, I've kind of got, if you smash those together,

you've got the 991.1, and so I'm happy to have both bases covered. I don't know, man,

I like the 991.2. The turbo motor is just fun to play with. Yeah. So I mean,

it's kind of like, you know, I've had a couple of G bodies now, and I've never owned a G body

target. So I guess I'll buy a G body target because I haven't owned one. I mean, maybe the 991.1

will come along that I would own just because you're kind of like, well, I want to cover all my

bases, but I don't know. Right now, I don't feel compelled to pick one up.

I flew out to Salt Lake City, Zach, and I drove one home with one of my sons, and it is in a great

TT car, especially going over the mountains. And then you can hit some speeds on the wide open

spaces of the planes. And it is a great car because you get back, I think we drove for like five days,

hundreds and hundreds of miles every day, and we were not exhausted, which I can't say that about

many cars. You're right. The 991 is a great car. It's a great all-arounder, and it's a nice

backroads car too. And I would, I had an S, but I think that the base in the 991 is also a great

car too. So if you ever do look that way, let me ask you another question. Dude, what's up with

Panamaris? Why does no one ever talk about them? Because every time one drives down my street,

I'm like, damn, that's a good looking car. But no one ever talks about them.

What's funny is my answer to this is that I think they look weird. I think from the front,

they look cool. I think from the right angles, they're cool looking cars. And I think they drive

great because of course they do. But from profile, rear three-quarter, the back, especially once you

go a few generations back or a few years back for the redesigns. So I think that's part of it. I

think that's why I'm moving away from sedans. Everyone's going towards performance SUVs or

crossovers, whatever you want to call it. So in my opinion, you've got people moving away from

sedans in general, moving away from performance sedans in general. And now you've got the one

that is the least orthodox looking in terms of sedan. It's not really a sedan, it's a hatchback,

I know, but it's competing with M5, CLS, all that stuff. It's just like the

weirder looking one until recent generations of BMW in my opinion. So that's why I think nobody

talks about them. They're great cars to drive, but you also have Porsche maintenance cost and

repair costs and stuff. So as they fall into the used market, it's a hard thing for people to choose.

It's a solid point. I think after the redesigns, it got a lot better looking. I think I like the

idea of them. I used to have a lot of five series back in the day when I used to drive a lot for

work and we can't even compare the design language of BMWs nowadays to where Porsche is,

but I agree with you to a certain extent. The funny thing is about sedans is the same thing

that everyone says about wagons. Everyone wants sports wagons. Everyone says sports wagons and

then they come here and no one buys them and then they die out and they get discontinued in one year.

Well, I think it's a real squeaky wheel gets the grease thing. Enthusiasts will seem like they

represent the majority of car buyers and will yell. It's so common in politics too, but we're

just like, we want these fast wagons. Why don't they make them? They're so awesome. They make so

much sense. So BMW goes, fine, we'll bring you seven total and they sell five of them.

And then they don't bring them back here for 20 years and everyone goes, how come they don't sell

them here? It's like because they buy them in Europe and we don't buy them here. So you can't

really blame them for not bringing more of them. We want what we can't have, but car companies

need to sell more cars than there are well-financed enthusiasts that want to buy that car. I think

we don't really like hatchbacks and wagons in general. And the Panamera falls, it's not a sedan,

it's a hatchback technically, but if they call it a hatchback, they'll sell even less of them.

So I think they're in a tough spot. The funny thing is, is those enthusiasts that clamor

for the sports wagons, they only ever buy them on the used market anyways. They're not the ones

that are buying in brand new. So they want to buy them as second and third owners. Absolutely.

Yeah. I mean, the people that have the most time to yell on the internet about cars

don't usually have a job that can afford them to buy a brand new Porsche 5-door. I mean,

there are exceptions. Ferrari Chat is full of people that seem to have all the time in the

world to complain about everything. But I think for the most part, the loud enthusiasts tend to be

younger and they can't afford these 100 to $200,000 cars.

Is Ferrari Chat is a dangerous a place as they say it is. I haven't spent any time there,

but I've heard it talked about. I've heard it talked about too. I think it's hard to get into.

You can stumble on, occasionally I'll search something and I'll find a page that lets me

in to see the page. Oh, it's locked out. It's like invite only?

I think it's locked out invite only. I think you have to, at least you used to have to prove

you had a Ferrari or something like that. That's so Ferrari. We're not going to let you on our

internet pages. Yeah, exactly. Unless you buy a couple internet pages and then maybe we'll let

you on our internet page. Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's ran by a Ferrari corporate, but the

people that are in charge of it, I guess if you want to make sure it's only Ferrari owners and

you don't want a bunch of 12-year-olds to go in there and ask you questions about your,

I don't know, 430 or something, you can't keep it.

It's like, what's that dating app where it was only for people that went to Ivy League school?

I wouldn't know because I didn't. What's up with the 7184 cylinders? Do you think they're

as described, I guess I'll say? What's your opinion on the 7184 cylinders?

They're impressive for what they are, but I don't like them. I mean, I just don't like the engine.

It's a Torque Boxer 4 and look, I owned a Super STI for two years. I'm a huge fan of

Boxy turbocharged 4-cylinders, but the sound just seems alien for what car I'm sitting in

and the badge I'm looking at and all that stuff. Good momentum car. Torque engine,

they can be quick, but I just think you are missing. I think when I drive them,

I feel like I am missing an essential ingredient to what makes a Porsche experience. There's

so many good flat-sixes in Cayman's boxers, everything. I can't remember. I drove the 718T

and I can't remember the price delta between that and the entry-level flat-six version,

but my takeaway was I would rather just drive something else and then save money until I could

get something with a flat-six. It's like, the new C63 AMG has this terrible 4-cylinder turbocharged

hybrid system and the 4-banger is a buzzy thing and the transmission is not great and the hybrid

integration is meh, but for so many of us, when you think C63 AMG, it has to be V8,

it has to sound like that thing. It could be an NA, it could be the 4-liter turbo, it's a great

engine, but whatever way you cut it, it's got to feel something like that and this 4-banger

hybrid thing they have is such a huge departure and you just go, well, now this sounds wrong

and it doesn't perform great. So the 718 4-banger performs well, just doesn't sound right to me.

It's funny you say that. Will, do you have any experience driving those?

None and I need to try it out. I mean, I've watched reviews of them, but never been behind the wheel.

I would say that the way I describe it when people ask me is I say that they have no shortage of

grunt. Sure. You are driving those, it kicks you. That torque was back to your point. Torquey engines

that really punch above what you think that they should. I can't remember. I don't think I've driven

a 708 stick only in PDK, but you throw it in sport mode and it'll move for sure and it'll go rapidly,

but I do agree with you, man. It doesn't have that silky smoothness. There's a rough texture

to the motor and it doesn't feel right when you're touching all these wonderful touch surfaces

and the steering is on point and it's just not quite the same and I just can't find my way to

love them and I think the market actually reflects that, dude. I think you're going to see them as,

I think they are right now. Seven weights are falling down into where the 78 ones are

in terms of price and so I think the market is going to speak on that.

Now, to your other question, that might be a way for someone to get into Porsche cheaper

because you have the handling balance, you have the ergonomics of it are great,

the shifting of that car, the shift action is pretty good. You get a lot of the positive attributes,

but you're just missing what I think is fairly unique to 911s is the flat six.

Yeah, maybe that would be the new 944 or base boxer entry into Porsche ownership. I mean,

who knows? What do you think when it comes to Porsche values? Are we still in a bubble? Do

you still see them going up? I actually wanted to ask you this because Will is thinking about

buying a G-Body and my brother is thinking about buying a G-Body and I've owned G-Bodies

and I don't think they're a $70,000 driving experience. I just don't,

but that's where they are or higher. What do you think about that?

One of my favorite conversations of recent years, I was with Lane from Driving Well Awesome

and one of the co-founders of Radwood and I get in his car, he's got a black G-Body

and I'm like, oh, hey man, he had bought it like six months ago. I say, hey, how do you like this

car? And he goes, it's fine. And I start laughing because so many people that own 911s are like,

it's the greatest thing in the world. I would die for this car. Everyone should sample this Thor's

hammer shit. And I go, oh, and I start laughing. I go, what do you mean it's fine? He goes, well,

it was good for 40 grand, but this was like $63,000 and it's fine. Look, they are well built.

They are reliable. If you do all the things you need to do,

they're just, when I've driven old Porsches, I go, I get it. I get where the DNA, you can feel

the lineage and all that stuff and it's very impressive. But $70,000 for no tech, low performance,

they're not very fast or straight line. Modifying them is incredibly expensive to make them fast

costs so much money. And so I think you have to just, you have to be really into the lore

and appreciate the engineering and all that to be into it. And everyone I know that has them,

you can take them on dirt roads and they don't wiggle squeak. You can turn them into Safari cars.

Like there's such well built machines compared to almost anything of that time period. And

when I drove Lee Keane Safari cars, I go, oh, I would buy a G body and turn it into this immediately

because then you feel like you're going a thousand miles an hour, but you're going 30,

you're on the dirt, all that stuff. I just, the prices seem to keep going up and up and up.

And, you know, the driving experience question is hard because it's, again,

subjective and totally based on what your financial position is. So for someone

who can just throw 70 grand and go, oh, it's my fifth car, like I really enjoy it because XYZ.

Great. Or if you, it's your only car and you love the minutia and the engineering and the story,

if it makes you happy, it's worth it, I think is the crux of the whole thing. But

prices just keep going up and you can get other Porsches for $70,000 that also can provide a lot

of magic and a lot of fun. Yeah. And that might, that is so well said because I think that there

are a lot of Porsches that you can get for 70K that are 70K driving experiences. And, you know,

Lane is completely right. Like for $30,000, it's a steal. For $40,000, that's a $40,000 driving

experience. You start getting over 50, you're like, golly, there's a lot I could buy for that.

Though I do want to make the point that all of our discussions keep coming back to turning cars

into off-road machines. And so I think that if there's one takeaway on this podcast today,

well, it's that everyone has to dirtify their cars immediately. Yeah. Well, speaking of G-Bodies,

I mean, at 30K, I can use one as a donor. But now that they're 60, 70, 80, you just can't feel good

about doing that. You know, I mean, you're talking about an 89 coupe, you know, touching 100 grand,

like I just don't see it. And I would also say this, I don't see the value of a 964,

like in terms of how much they're going for. I mean, Zach, what do you think about that?

Well, that's, isn't that the singer, the singer tide that has, you know, increased their prices?

Yeah. Yeah, they talk about the singer effect, you know, and I think they're definitely rarer.

But I just, I don't see it. I had one and I much prefer the 993 and, you know, touching on that

point of, I sold that car. I won't tell you how much, but it was quite a bit of money and a lot

of the reason I, it was an Amazon green, light interior, you know, C2, 92, the one everybody

wants. But you start looking at what are you actually getting for the value of the car? You're

looking around. It's like a pontoon boat. You ever been on a tritune or a pontoon boat?

Yeah, a long time ago. Yeah. Very expensive these days. Yes.

And you buy one and you're standing on it. You're like, where did my money go?

Yeah. You know, it's plywood floor and all that. I kind of felt that way about the 964. So I

exited that car and I got into a minty, beautiful Sapphire blue GT4 with like 8,000 miles on it

or something like that. And I still had cash left over to play with. And so, you know, it's

about what you're looking for. I mean, the G body is a cool car, but to your point, I just,

I have a hard time seeing an SC at $70,000 and feeling good about that when I saw them floating

around at 30, you know? Yeah. And it's hard. It's like anything with market forces. You know,

you were paying attention a long time ago. You had your, you got to own it, which is great. You

got it in it at what you thought was a fair price. But, you know, I mean, I've been doing this job

for like 16 years. I worked for a company that produced a lot of Porsche B-roll for like six

of those years. And the popularity and like the wave of just like the marketing and the celebration

and not just from Porsche side, like the fandom and the just like this hunger people have had for

the brand has just grown so much in 15 years. It is wild to see. And I think they are, as a company,

they're the best at nurturing that and reminding people of their racing history, their cars, how

they're special, the technology. And then, you know, the fans and the enthusiasts are also good

at perpetuating that and celebrating it and making content. And now you just have these two like,

you know, up wells that are just, I don't know, that's not, that's not the right analogy. But

these two forces are just lifting the prices up and up and up. So I don't know. And I don't know

how big the bubble can get. I think so much of that stuff depends on other economic forces. And

we've been in kind of an up and to the right market for the most part with like, you know,

an exception of COVID. And that was brief for like, what is it 14 years since the financial,

great financial crisis? So that probably has a lot to do with it too.

You know, coming out of left, I can honestly say that there is no shortage of that good will.

And that upward trajectory. And quite frankly, a lot of people with a lot of disposable cash is

what I saw. And so I think all those things added together point in the direction that you

describe, Zach. And if you're going to get in, get in now, because it's just going to be more

expensive later, it's like the stupid housing market, just buy, buy your house now, because

it's always going to be more, it's going to be cost you more later. Let me ask you this, Zach,

as we kind of wind down, when you are filming a driver's test this weekend, who are your guests?

We have Larry Chen, my good friend and Larry's good friend, Cory Burns. He's a kind of a behind

the scenes guy in the SoCal car media scene. Jeff Glucker, who has been, had this job about

as long as I have, he was a host. New Hampshire guy.

Yeah, New Hampshire guy. He was a host at Motor Trend, Cox Media, Kelly Blue Book,

AutoBlog. And then with him is Vinnie Russo. Vinnie Russo has been worked on the marketing side of

like, Spike or Lamborghini, runs all the Hot Wheels events now and can fix just about anything.

So yeah, it's a good crew. Yeah, it's a good crew. And everyone gets along and everyone's

pretty funny. And they all have like overlapping knowledge, but not by very much, you know,

it's like the edges of the poker chips are overlapping. They're not really,

not just one circle. So it should be interesting.

They'd be complimentary as they try to figure out your questions and work together.

Didn't Larry Chen just come back from the Brunei collection? Didn't he go over there and

photograph it? Yeah, he did. He got back,

well, the video went up, I think a week or two ago, and he got back maybe a month ago.

That guy is everywhere. I mean, his Hagerty show is, you know, probably the best microscope

towards global car culture around. And yeah, he got to actually photograph some of the Brunei

collection. He talked a lot about it on the Smoking Tire podcast. And if the story is pretty wild,

and then it's a good precursor to his video, it's like a 50 minute documentary on Hagerty about

like landing there, asking people if he could see the collection. And then like, you know,

some relative of the Sultan comes up and says, Hey, I know you and yes, you can. And then someone

calls him on the phone and says, actually, you can't. And like, he went on a radio show and

talked about it. And that changed the course of what was going to happen. It was wild. I mean,

for such a famous car collection, the way he sort of fell into and out of and into and out of

and into it is insane. He is the personification of being very good at what you do and grinding

until you're successful. And that's what I've always appreciated about his career.

That sounds like an awesome show, Zach. Will, before we wind up, anything you wanted to add?

Negative. It's been great. Yeah, Zach, dude, I can't thank you enough. You are a blast to talk

to in person. And I'm really excited to catch the next episode of Driver's Test. And hopefully we can

wine and dine you with more talk of off road Porsche-ness and get you back on at some point.

Heck yeah. Let's do it. Cool. Thanks for having me guys. It was really fun.

Absolutely. Thank you.

Thanks, Zach.

The Smoking Tire’s Zack Klapman on Overhyped Porsches and Real Drivers’ Cars

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