The Tariff Edition, Lotus Lessons, The Iron Man Effect | Episode 1,005

Thank you guys for all the feedback on the podcast now with video. We're getting really good comments on YouTube every time. It's also available on Spotify. Of course, if you're listening as well, we just love that you're still listening. Thank you for that. It will continue as an audio-only podcast. We are trying to make it a thing where if you're not watching, you're still enjoying. But thank you to all of you that are watching and enjoying. We are diving in with all the stuff. We've got news up front. We've got a topic Tuesday where we're talking about Lotus close to my heart. Well, I thought we've done the Porsche problem. Yes.

I thought we should touch on Lotus lessons. We're technically calling it Lotus lessons. We should touch on just stuff going on with Lotus. The further I dug in, the more questions that I have. I don't know that I solved anything. No, but there are questions. There are many questions. We've got two car debates, two car conclusions, all the normal stuff. We're getting into questions from you guys at the end. Thank you for being with us as always. We're going to dive into, I know this is not a surprise. It's not even really news, but it is official. Stellantis is not doing well.

They're kind of the best of the not doing well. It's the worst of the not doing well companies. The ones we're worried about. Neesons at the top, but surely following them. They're at the top. Yes. The Stellantarians, the weird space people. They put up all the brands you can see. The weird space people. There's so many brands here. Here's the thing. In the US media, when you read this news, they've had a $2.7 billion loss. But it's almost always tied to Jeep when I read it.

I was reading about it in US media because you say Stellantis and the average person goes, I don't know what Stellantis is. Still love what? So it's either Jeep or Dodge get mentioned up front. So people know who that is. But I mean, there's so many brands under here. I would argue too many brands under here. But this whole series of news could kind of be tentatively titled tariff problems because the tariffs are coming around and having major issues in the automotive area. But Stellantis is talking about a $2.7 billion loss that they are attributing. Now I'm sure there's other stuff going on there.

It is technically less than Nissan. Compared to Nissan, we haven't had a bad year. You did it. $2.7 billion. They're attributing a lot of that to tariffs and the new cost because of tariffs. I mean, we know it wasn't going to hide. Yeah. So yeah, that's going on. That's not good news. You know, I've read a lot of comments about where it should be. Where the mojo for Stellantis should go because all these brands, Chrysler brand, they really only make the minivan. Well, wait, we make the Voyager 2.

Same thing. You make the minivan. Dodge coming back and they're thinking about reintroducing the hemi. So nothing like looking to the past to resurrect something that ended to go sales for the future. Hey, we had to go back to things that sold. That was proven that it did well. People liked that. For sure. Yeah. So do we keep going? Do we bring the next iteration of the Hellcat back to make something interesting because I still do not find

the charger EV compelling. It's not an interesting design. It's not a pretty car. Yes. I don't think it's interesting looking and then she can bring it up because I actually, yeah, there's discussion of it's being tested with the actual gasoline motor, which is probably going to be the same thing in the RHO is what I believe it is. It's the straight six. It's the straight six twin turbo, which is a heck of a motor with a lot of power. It's not it's not a hemi, but it's not an EV because the EV sales on these have been abysmal.

Abysmal and I've worried about them, building the new version of the quadrolyo or the Julia on this chassis. Oh, sure.

And making the Julia enormous because that from a business standpoint, that makes sense. You're right. You're right. Yeah.

Well, just we've got this platform now. We'll drive four doors to make it the new. Whatever it is. Be like the Julia as a limo because this is huge car. It's a huge car.

Yeah. Your screen here. Yeah, that I'm not compelled by the design. I don't think it stands out. I think the prior generation was more interesting. Actually, I thought it was interesting. I mean, design wise, I kind of like this. I got to be honest. I actually do like this. I think it looks great. And but you know, and the force door is the one that really hasn't been out much yet. It's been the it's been the EV two norm that they they they can't give away. I mean, honestly, that's really what's happened is they can't give away the two door EV version. Yeah, it doesn't matter.

That it has a crazy EV howl as they're trying to figure out, okay, what people like the hellcat per sound. So let's make an EV how none of that's mattered. We walked around this car. It's seen in two door form. And we're both astonished at how massive it is. It I mean, and also as a two door, it somehow seems bigger. Even a four door. It's going to make a little more sense. But you're right. This is every bit as big as the last charger. I would say if you put them side by side probably bigger. And I don't want this to be the Julia because the Julia is even though it's a cool four door.

And I love it. It shouldn't be this big. I got that sinking feeling like, oh, what if they do that because that's how marketing and business people think, well, we've got that platform. That's the new thing. We got to share. We got an amateur dollars. That's the key. You got to amortize it. The all the machining that you did. Yeah. I think the alpha version of that would be far more compelling. I don't think this is I think it's the generic version of the prior generation. It's the blender more slab sided more generic scrubbed of personality version of the prior charger and challenger actually interesting because I just

see so much of that 69 era in this. Well, sure, but then they're trying to capture that 69 era and draw on the heartstrings. I totally remember those. That's what it is now. Okay. And that's they were counting on those buyers to come back and clearly $2.7 billion worth of those buyers did not show up. Well, I'm looking at all of these brands here that are part of Stellantis. And let's think about all the places that you could use that rear-wheel drive Dodge. Obviously, you could do the Dodge. You could do the the alpha Romeo. I'd hate that. But you could.

Let's see. Maserati could use that platform. You know that you know it's out there. What about Opole? They could do a big box box hall for sure. Box all box hall could do a big new four doors sedan under the box hall brand. This is how you amortize this out. Chrysler would bring the 300 C back. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Look at the current sister cars Bentley styling and just copy it. Make the new 300 C on the I was just there's two big narratives going on right now across all of the car industry. And I feel like so much.

Many news stories were hearing fallen to one of two things. The EV pullback or tariffs. And these conversations today cover all of the above. It is amazing how that is affecting everything. One addition to that thought. And that is the product portfolio itself. Because I think that's the third major part of all of these problems. The entire car industry is having. They don't seem to have the right product mix. The only company that stands out in my mind is Toyota.

They have the broadest portfolio of anybody. Now you're right. It's a good point. It's very the biggest company so they can afford to offer the wide range of products and justify it. But Stellantis is large to absolutely surprise me to find out they're based on the Netherlands. Like, huh.

I'm sure there's a tax reason for that. You know there is. No, there is an outing reason why their HQ is the Netherlands. Yes, I think even if all of these companies had the perfect product portfolio. Yeah. Yeah.

Of course, the EV pullback and the tariffs would have affected that. But I think that would have been lessened because Toyota certainly is making changes and feeling it just like any other car company. But you look at their product mix and what they've done. They've done such a great variety. And here we have Stellantis with car brands that only make one thing.

Dodge with their charger. It is a charger. Challenger, but still it's the same. It is a standard car. Chrysler with the minivan.

Rams with just the truck, even though the engine, the V8 needs to come back. And you know they're going to use that as marketing. The hemmys back everybody. You know it. It's just sales on that one. Yes.

Maserati. I almost think they should divest themselves of Maserati. Almost that and alpha. But I don't know. They can't stand on their own. And you don't know where they go. And who picks them up? You're right. You're totally right. Yeah. Nissan can't afford them. They can't afford Nissan.

GM wants to make EVs. Are those cars need actual like motors? The German. They're not going to touch. They're not going to touch those. Not at all. Yeah.

Yeah. They'd have to be subsidized by the Italian government because of the prideful. Yeah. Maserati and alpha. So they can't go anywhere. It's not that interesting point. It's not that they don't want to sell. It's they've realized they can't. So they have to keep building new models.

Well speaking of things kind of not working. If you want to talk about it in that regard, talking about product portfolios and that kind of thing, I hate to go here, but I'm going to. And that is Porsche.

Porsche has said in articles all over the place, the current CEO of Porsche. His quote was our business model is now proving to not be working.

There's no longer working. Now this is terrible quote. This is their current lineup. At least close to current line. This doesn't have the EV Macon in it. But it has everything else. Okay. Yeah.

So think about it. This is cayenne, Macon, Panamera, TyCon 911 and Cayman Boxer. Okay. This is the product portfolio at Porsche. They actually are having an increase in sales here in the US. About 10% up this year.

But they're down more than 40% in China. North America is now their largest market, which is crazy. China has pulled back in sales.

And this we're talking about also issues again here of tariffs. That's it's more expensive to sell a Porsche here now. So that's part of it.

But then there's a secondary part of that equation that's going to relate to lots of things as we head into our Lotus Lessons discussion here in a minute. And that is I don't think the Chinese care to buy anyone else's EVs.

I think their EV market has been so subsidized by their government and has grown so fast with so many options. Yeah.

That if you're buying an EV, they have so many domestic options. I think that China is becoming a complete dead zone for anybody that is trying to sell an EV that is not a Chinese automaker.

And Porsche is pivoting. As many others have, of course, Porsche is pivoting for, well, let's sell EVs now. Well, if China is off the table, because nobody's going to buy your EV because you're not a Chinese EV company.

And I really do think this is happening. Then you have to sell them here and everywhere else.

And the Taikon sales have fallen off a cliff. And of course, you used, you want to get a deal on an EV right now. Get yourself a Taikon. I mean, they're still $60 plus $1,000, but they were like $200,000.

A couple of years ago, and you can get a really nice Taikon now for well under six figures, which is astounding for what is a very good EV, but people don't care.

And the EV Macon is fine. I haven't heard anything about the fact that it's like, the EV of Macon is selling great. It's not selling in China well at all.

And here, I see a few, but every time I see one here, it looks awkward. It just looks awkward. And I think that awkwardness is what's under the camo of the Cayman Boxster.

Because it just doesn't look quite right. And I can't put my finger on it. I can tell you the things about the Macon EV that look wrong, like the front and the whole front fascia is too long to try to get the air dynamic.

To tall for the efficiency out of it. It comes way down, the front air dynamic. Everything comes way down. It's like, what is that? Why is it weird?

They're packaging it over that flat floor, the same. And they've got to get what's the air flow to get us all the best efficiency and all that kind of stuff.

So Porsche has already said that they're not sure what to do about the electric Cayman Boxster and the entire world is going, we don't really want that.

So that's going on, but Taikon's fallen off a cliff. China is a no-go zone.

So Porsche is now going, what do we do next? And this is in, here's the thing, it's in huge contrast to the fact that the EU has new regulations, which is why the Cayman Boxster have died.

New regulations for the output of gasoline motors. And so the reason the current Cayman Boxster are dying is because the current round of engines don't pass.

So that's why they went, we'll just go EV. And the market is going, we don't really want your EVs. So wow.

The compounded problem, no, let me back up. The Chinese market that you're talking about, I think you're right because we're also going to see quite a few Chinese brands, some we haven't even heard of yet, that will fold.

Because of the glut, yes, absolutely, yes. But with Porsche, it's not just the current product mix. It's what they've got in the hopper.

It's what's in the pipeline currently that we're hearing about that EV Cayman Boxster, that already, if the market is making noises, strong noises, that they don't want a car already before you've even released the concept.

All we've seen is renderings. We haven't even seen, or spy shots on the ring where it's not, Porsche doesn't really want you to see it yet, but here's a spy shot on the ring.

And it's seen that kind of stuff. It's deliberate. It's a game. It's a dance between photographers and the media, and it's just designed to get your excited.

And of course, the car manufacturers peel back the clothing over time. So here's the latest photos with the least amount of cladding we've ever seen.

And now we can really see some stuff. It's this ongoing game that the market has already expressed dismay and disinterest in this EV Cayman.

The sport to resmo tycon, I think, is actually pretty. It's a great, fantastic looking. And I think what I want it though, it doesn't seem at close to $200,000, does it seem like a worthwhile investment?

And it doesn't, to me, simply because of how fast the EV tech marches, how fast everything goes, because as cool as that car is, that's going to feel obsolete in three years.

You're right. You're right.

So there are least mobiles. Everything in the portfolio now becomes least mobiles, which is meaning, means Porsche is pointing themselves in the direction of the value placed upon it.

The overinflated value is going to come down and be parity with everything else, which is what they're feeling.

It's not that, remember the 9.11 thing, it's spiked and 9.11's cost, what they frankly shouldn't.

Well, the resale value of Porsche has always been incredibly high. And you're making an interesting point.

I'll just wait to get it used, actually used a more expensive weight. That's not a good idea.

Yeah, bring them down to everything else. It's not a solution.

I mean, it'll keep their special edition cars really high, but here's another thing that doesn't get discussed a lot.

And again, I am the owner of two different Porsche kians. I know one is a PHEV and one is not.

But there is an all EV kian coming.

That's right. How much does the market not want that?

I mean, honestly, I think a lot, when I heard the Toyota investment in a seven passenger EV, a big SUV that they have now tabled, which means that program has died.

That doesn't mean we'll pull it out a little bit later. We'll wait a couple of years. No, that has been shelved.

That is waiting for any market on there isn't any right now.

And now this kian there, no, no, it'll be awesome.

Okay, a few people will buy it.

Of course, absolutely.

Not what they need, not the kind of sales figures they need.

So the 9.11 will keep marching on, arrow bit by arrow bit to make it slightly faster, don't need more power.

And we talked about when we drove the GTS recently, I think Porsche's really cool split hybrid turbo technology.

I think that's the way.

I think that's the way forward to get efficiency because that car also that's part of back to these EU regulations.

That's part of the reason that exists like that because it's passing the new EU standards for emissions by running that platform.

So let's start working that through the lineup.

So at this point, why haven't we heard along with all three of these issues?

Any car manufacturer talk about e-fuels.

How come that has died?

It's been two years since Porsche was making a lot of noises about e-fuels and supporting all of their models all the way back to the first Porsche with e-fuels to make them more efficient.

The emissions changes and how that affects the emissions stuff.

It's a great question.

No other car company.

Corvette, Chevy, they're not really talking about e-fuels.

The other German car companies are not talking about e-fuels, although I believe that technology is advancing.

Well, and we've also heard that Chevron, I believe, is actually doing a lot on their own about e-fuels.

We have talked about them.

And Porsche was doing their own thing.

And so definitely it exists and it is interesting.

I bring up a great question.

I wonder what do the e-fuels, I know they don't use petroleum.

That's the point.

But do they burn cleaner?

I have no idea.

Because here's the thing.

If that doesn't burn any cleaner, then it's a non-starter with these new regulations.

Of course.

And I don't know how that relates.

And somebody watching, I'm sure you actually probably know.

But this is very interesting that Porsche is just saying, and please don't misunderstand me.

I know we did a whole thing on Porsche.

This is not me coming down on Porsche.

I'm not.

In this case, I'm just saying, I think it's very interesting that Porsche from the top is saying,

we're going to make a big change.

And they have been the most successful brand.

As far as the actual profit per model sold.

And you bring up a great point.

I do wonder if that's just going to have to settle.

So they look like everybody else on the market.

They've been the golden goose for a while.

Where every one of their cars has got huge profit margin.

And that's worked really well for them.

But the stumble and fail of the Tykon in sales is a big hit.

And the fact that I'm going to stand by it, I think that China doesn't want anyone's EV.

If it doesn't come locally.

Because why?

Why?

We've got them.

We've done EVs.

They've got plenty of their own technology now.

Yes.

You're right.

And I think this is emblematic of the industry.

I'm not coming down on Porsche necessarily either.

Because almost every car company has their current models that are faltering.

Yes.

But also what's in the pipeline is not the solve.

They're doubly solved.

Absolutely.

Yes.

I think every car company is feeling that way.

And so you're right.

China, they've got the EV thing kind of down.

It's almost like, well, not leave it to them, but leave it to them.

They've got incredible tech.

China spends a lot of money subsidizing their own products in their own country.

So you have that built on top of the other issue.

And that is prior to EVs, China has no legacy automakers.

It's not like, well, the Chinese have always met, there's not really in that sentence.

Right.

They've always bought other people's cars essentially.

I mean, they've had some, but very minimal.

And all of the pure Chinese cars weren't good enough to sell anywhere else.

So it's almost like they started blank sheet with electric cars.

And they know tech.

And they've done tech very well as a culture for decades.

Yeah.

And then you have a government who's not worried about how do I put this kindly.

Making sure the books look right.

They just, they'll subsidize.

They'll move the pieces around so that it's a shell game.

So as a result, you have local car makers who are going to get subsidized

in a market that only needs to be EVs doesn't need to be anything else.

There's no legacy that we have to worry about.

And then, oh, it's, it's, they're all successful.

Did you know that at Chevron, you can fuel up on unbeatable mileage and savings?

With Chevron rewards, you'll get 25 cents off per gallon on your next five visits.

All you have to do is download the Chevron app and join to start saving on fuel.

Then you can keep fueling up on other things like adventure, memories, vacations,

vacations, quality time, and so many other possibilities.

Head to your nearest Chevron station to fuel up and get rewarded today.

In terms of price, you should run techscorewards.com for more details.

Since you're listening to us, you'll end up shopping for your next car very soon.

And when you do, you need auto-tempest.com.

Any car anywhere at any price, auto-tempest searches all the major car listing sites on the web,

local, or nationwide.

An auto-tempest has recently added price history for every car listed,

so you can see how prices are trending and know if you found a good deal.

You can also create search alerts and lists of saved searches so you can find your perfect spec even easier next time.

Search on any device in your browser or as an app for Apple iOS and Android.

New, used, or unexpected auto-tempest is how we search for cars.

Go to auto-tempest.com slash everyday so they know we sent you.

Auto-tempest, all the cars.

One search.

Speaking of Chinese EVs, that actually moves us very nicely into our topic of the day,

which is Lotus, and I'm going to start right here with the Avaya.

Talk about Chinese EVs.

Because Lotus, my beloved brand that I love very much, you all know, is owned by Glee, a Chinese company.

Who was one of these companies making lots of EVs for China in various subsidiaries.

This is the Avaya.

A fantastic looking car.

If you've ever seen the Avaya, this is what was going to be $2 million in $2,000 horsepower or something like that.

2011 horsepower.

Oh, sorry.

I'm just an easy old 2000.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All-wheel drive electric hypercar.

The best thing so far, I hate to say this.

The best thing so far to come out of the Avaya is it inspired the styling of the Amira.

That's a great point.

I think this is one of the prettiest cars.

I think your Amira is so pretty.

It is the prettiest car on sale hands down.

Currently, it's the most beautiful car far and away.

But this inspired it.

You're right.

Absolutely.

And I think this is styling direction.

Pretty your car.

Absolutely.

It's gorgeous.

But this is five years old.

And they're just now starting to make deliveries.

They just sort out a few things.

And then the delivery starts.

Sorry, that's amazing.

That was very kitsch.

Very quietly put.

Shall I?

Do I need to expand?

Sort out a few things.

Is excellent.

Yes.

Hopefully you understand what I'm referring to.

I don't need to expound on the issues Lotus is having.

But once they've figured out production locations.

And now they've got the car tested and sorted.

And deliveries are happening.

I did watch Ben Collins video when he drove this on track.

And what a superb video.

I liked his commentary while on track describing the car.

But the conclusion that he ultimately reached.

Was where do you take this?

Because it's not designed as I high down forced track car.

So if it's not just a personal track car,

even though it can, but in the hands of Ben Collins.

Anything could be a very amazing track.

But that's not exactly what Lotus is going after.

It's a bit of a showpiece.

You can cruise around in this.

Yes, you can track it.

But there's other higher hypercars just like this.

That are designed as the play toy track car.

So what exactly do you do with this?

If I had deliveries are now happening, which is great.

I'm glad to see that they're coming through because I thought,

oh yeah, whatever happened to that thing.

And they're just now delivering it.

But five years from concept sketch all the way to delivery now,

it feels like I could have bought insert anything else here.

And I could have bought it slightly used five years.

You're kind of waiting for some cool things to happen.

Yeah.

It's still beautiful and cool.

It's cool. I think it's superb.

It's superb.

I love this thing.

The huge crazy going doors.

But the other thing that's happened in that five years.

Think about the competitors for this.

When Lotus announced this,

the turbine hadn't been announced yet.

Moté rematch.

Moté rematch had just taken over Bentley and Bugatti.

And the rematch was being discussed on top here in other places

as the future of hypercars were going to be EV.

The Pena Freedabab Tista had been introduced.

This super high horsepower EV.

And then the market turn.

We're back to tariffs and EV market turn.

Then the market turn.

And even Moté rematch is going,

this upper level buyer doesn't want an EV.

Koenigsegg has identified that.

Horatio Pagani, like you said, Ferrari.

Lotus is stuck in the lurch here with their hypercar

from their Chinese owner who makes EVs

is an EV hypercar that's super expensive.

I heard that actually what I'm about to say

I don't know if it's right.

I heard that if you'd like to get a turbine

and you're not already on the list,

you will be encouraged to buy a rematch.

To get you on the list.

I've heard this.

I don't know that this is true.

This is Ferrari behavior.

It is, but because those are still available,

because those hypercars haven't sold.

We got a bunch of those out back.

You want one of these?

Lotus has had this problem before.

I mean, Lotus has had this problem with his sprees

and other stuff where they got released into a market

that had moved on or a market that had crashed

or whatever.

I mean, this is the thing that killed the XJ220 Jaguar.

By the time it got released, the market had turned

and nobody could afford it.

The problem with this EVa,

if it had been released when they announced it,

it would have been probably a different animal.

But released now,

it's behind the fact that the market is having a shift

that I think affects the entire Lotus product line in future.

We identified Lotus next design concept.

The future of what Lotus would be.

And that would be the theory one,

an EV with 986 horsepower,

a lot of horsepower.

I'm sure they could have made it a thousand,

but anyway, 986 horsepower.

Half of the avaya though.

I don't know what's going on there.

They weren't trying hard enough.

Doors that are patent pending

and carbon tub with composites and polycarbonate panels

and a lot of recycled materials

and a lot of investigation into haptics

and even into clothing, Lotus wear.

The car is called Lotus Wear.

It's all part of the future plan.

The car talks to your jacket and weird things like that.

It sounds insane,

but also these doors are incredibly cool.

They're not just calling doors.

They actually slide back on a track as they open.

Yes.

Doors are timeless.

You can put doors on a...

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

The market will change and the doors will still be cool.

Absolutely.

And this is a concept.

A suggestion of where Lotus could go.

They could go.

Yeah.

But what does every car manufacturer do

from low to high end to create the halo car

that gets customers interested and excited

to get it onto market quickly enough

or else they shouldn't reveal it

and keep it in their hip pocket

because as you said,

what if the avaya were revealed a month ago

or right now?

Yeah.

Wow, what a beautiful car.

You guys know that even...

Your timing's a little off, like five years off.

But it kind of gets a pass

because it was introduced in the past.

Yes.

Five years in car building world

is a long time.

Long time.

Especially now, yeah.

So how do car manufacturers get ahead of the problem?

I still see it as Toyota being a leader

because they've investigated so many.

So many car companies flip their own switch.

GM.

GM, what five, six years ago

said we're going to go all EV.

Well, OK.

On one level, it looks like GM's being cutting edge.

But when the world turns around you,

now you have nothing else to fall back on.

That is tough.

Yeah.

That's really tough.

Interesting.

Yeah, here's the sketch.

I just thought of those.

So beautiful of the avaya.

And this thing is really fascinating.

But as super cars go,

they all carry that same mid-engine kind of shape.

It's a gorgeous shape.

But you could have a V8 or a V12

or any kind of gas motor in this.

And you'd think, OK, some kind of cool super car.

So if it's going to be an EV hypercrazy car,

why does it even have to look like this?

Fair point.

But you've also actually walked us to the next conversation.

And that is, OK, I have an Amira.

And I bought the Amira because it is a last-of-the-breed car.

Forget what Lotus has said, which I'll get there in a second.

It's a last-of-breed car because it is a rear-wheel drive,

manual transmission, hydraulic steering,

mid-engine car that is non-turbo.

That is a car from like 1995.

Seriously.

That's a great point.

It is a car from like 20, 30 years ago

as far as the normal build sheet.

And it's one of the reasons that I love it.

It's one of the reasons that it's unique.

It's one of the reasons, frankly,

that many people online are like,

well, why on earth is the Amira not 600 plus horsepower?

Because we've all been recalibrated to crazy amounts of power.

Ten years ago, 500 horsepower in a car was...

Wow.

That is something.

If you drive an Amira hard,

there are not situations where you're just like,

well, man, that's just slow.

That's not a thing.

It's not a thing that happens.

There's plenty of passing power in the Amira.

It is not a drag strip car.

But it's a very powerful good car.

I mean, the recipe is 95.

If it drove like it did now in 95,

it would have been the world's best car.

It would have been the world's best car.

You're absolutely right.

But I'm saying, that build sheet is like the build sheet

everybody wanted in the late 90s.

And it's been built in 2025.

And I love it because it is a car.

There's a throwback.

But Lotus has said,

this is going to be our last

and her own combustion engine non-EV ever.

When the car was announced.

I questioned that.

I thought that's changing.

No, I agree with you because.

I questioned that immensely.

I completely agree with you because the two cars

that were announced after it.

The Electra.

And the Amaya.

So we've got the Amaya.

Yeah, whatever.

So we've got the Amaya X.

Yeah, here we go.

So the sedan electric.

Yes.

And the SUV electric.

You're not hearing much about those anymore.

Did Lotus customers ask for these?

I know we didn't get a phone call,

but did Lotus customers ask?

You know what you guys should do is.

The Electra is out, by the way.

I don't know if any of you knew this.

I don't know if any of you even seen one.

You can.

Yeah, it's out there.

You as people with money can go by.

The Electra electric SUV from Lotus.

I have seen one actual dealer demonstrator.

And I have seen zero on the road.

Now, maybe you watching have seen one.

But my point is we saw.

We saw it at the Lotus dealer.

Well, it's some of the track when they had the Lotus experience track.

Well, there's that.

But I don't even count that.

That's some sort of PR event.

I'm saying like one in the wild at all.

And it was at our local dealer.

And there it was.

And the local dealer.

I hate to say this.

Was using it as there like when folks at the dealer,

all the people that worked their go to launch,

they would just take that car.

Because it was never needed for a test drive.

It was always full for the EB.

They would just grab it and go.

Because it was easy.

And it's also a little bit of a promo to drive it around.

Yes.

Show it up.

And you can put four or five whatever people in it.

It's easy to go look.

That's how they use this thing.

So the point I'm making here is,

this is not a concept.

We've talked about two other cars that really aren't available from Lotus.

They're new theory one.

And the Avaya that was announced five years ago and just came out.

But did anybody like currently,

right now listening to this podcast,

have you thought about the fact that you could go by the SUV that's currently?

It's for sale.

And I nobody's buying them.

I think you can buy the AMIA.

I think it's some markets maybe.

Some markets that it's here yet.

Not globally.

But this brings us back to my China EV comment.

Yeah.

The problem I think for this SUV for Lotus.

And I understand what the conversation probably was.

Well, Lotus is a small niche sports car manufacturer.

We have to branch it out.

Porsche won by going SUV.

We should follow the Porsche model.

That will work.

I see the logic.

And it is.

Look.

I see the logic.

But the problem is.

Nobody's going to buy an electric SUV from Lotus.

If you can buy an equivalent from anybody else.

And this electric SUV from Lotus is related to Chinese SUVs also for sale.

It's not like it is a bespoke chassis.

It's not like you can't get anything like this.

It's not like the only person selling anything like this.

The only person selling anything like that on the market is Lotus.

You can get.

We could just have an internal list here of other five-seat SUVs that are super powerful from brands.

I hate to say it.

And I love Lotus.

From brands that you know will work.

Also brands that you know exist.

Yes.

Because when you drive your car around, everybody asks you.

Is that a fur?

It says Lotus on the back.

What is that?

People behind it go.

Wonder what kind of car this?

I spent like 10 minutes trying to figure out what that is.

What is that car?

Yes.

A Lotus.

Lotus still exists.

Lotus makes SUVs.

Are you kidding me?

Never heard of that.

I dug into sales numbers.

Oh god.

Okay.

Only January through March, Q1 of 2025 is currently available as of this podcast recording.

It is published on the Lotus website.

Q1 2025 worldwide, 719 SUVs and sedans were sold.

Combined.

But sometimesotic show by audience of an us.

719 total.

Total.

500, that's in Q1an, understood.

But yeah.

That's both models though.

555 sports cars.

So that probably includes the Aviva, but that's probably mostly the,

the mirror.

That's 550 of them where the mirrorists

five of them were.

deliberate.

Um, yeah.

For a total of 1274 vehicles again, Q1,

compared to the previous year, though.

That is a year over year decline of

Minus 42%

Yikes, Lotus isn't a large car company and they're already experiencing a negative year over year of 42% and

last year at this time the prior Q1

was 1800 vehicles and

That was mostly a mirror. I mean it was actually still kind of comparable because these were available in select markets

But it's not a recognizable car brand to most people

Even though

Most of these both of these are priced in the same kind of Mercedes

Porsche

Yes, you know, I know BMW. I guess I've heard of Maserati and oh without question

You know all the rest all those you know if you're shopping they're about comparably priced

These are Porsche alternatives is what they are. These are absolutely partial alternatives

I guarantee they were looking at the Porsche product portfolio and the pricing but the thing I think is interesting about those numbers

You just brought up that means that the Amira holding the line on sports cars by itself

Sold almost as much as both of their brand new models in EV sedan and SUV last gas powered sports car ever my

Well, yes, and I I don't

Not only do I think that but I have an idea for what I think Lotus should be

But I also think this connects up to something else going on and that is

There has been a lot of chatter in the UK in the last couple of weeks

Because

Something was said in passing and I don't know who's it fault here

But something was said at passing at all of a sudden it reverberated through all of the UK and then also the the general

World automotive media market that Lotus was going to close the Heffel plant

And the government stepped in whether yeah whether that's true or not

The UK government has taken it seriously and there have been phone calls there have been I what I imagine are some pretty awkward phone calls because

Lotus has backpedal backpedal backpedal backpedal backpedal backpedal

I don't know where the rumor comes from. I don't know how true the rumor was but Lotus is now standing on going

We were never going to close the Heffel plant. What do you do rumor came from somewhere? Yeah, okay

And so the UK is doing everything it was probably floated by executive's like how do you think we're going to feel like

Yeah, it was like shouldn't we like there was a boob in parliament. No about there. Yeah

Everybody from the prime minister down to like the local

Local people in government in the area of Heffel have said absolutely not on my watch. We're keeping this now the UK

Auto market used to be huge the number of factories in the UK was astounding and there's they're almost all binge been shuttered

But this Heffel plant has been around forever now. It's obviously not high volume

But they put a bunch of money into it to start making the amera, but we're back to the tariff edition

Because the US tariffs have made Lotus of all companies

This is insane to me have all companies on the planet say maybe we should build Lotus is in the US

And I'm going you're not going to spend that kind of money to make the kind of cars you're selling

Volvo isn't exactly the Volvo brand even though it's the UK

Is fighting for lower tariffs. I think it's like 10% tariffs for any UK brands JLR Jaguar etc

Coming into the US and they may get that at Lotus would theoretically be included

But this talk about creating ripples in government

All of the folks in England in government were like you're going to do what now?

So I don't know the represents job losses totally and it also looks really bad because your Chinese company buys a historic

British brand and everybody goes oh my gosh

It's been swallowed up by the Chinese and Lotus goes no no no no yet

We haven't and then you close the historic UK plant that looks really bad. Yeah

So what will happen here? I don't know but that that information is like a week or two old

And it's been fast and not only to read it but then to read like all of the UK is like I'm sorry what now

I mean I heard King Charles even bought an Electra

I mean he didn't really ditch Bentley. He's still got Bentley's in the fleet of course, but there's a lot of cars there

Yes, I got the Electra to motor around in a little bit

But I keep thinking about Lotus and I've asked this before about Jaguar in particular

What is British? What is the Jaguar feel?

They have redefined themselves to what they think it is

But I've asked the same question about Lotus. What is the Lotus feel and it comes always down to

A car that is surprisingly lightweight like shockingly light

And incredible handling

And I also read a recent snippet about how the Corvette factory allows you not only to create your own van

If it works to match another car and you have cars with matching vids yes

But they also allow you as part of a program to come in and be part of the engine building process

And it struck me as

I don't think any of us would care

If Lotus continues to reinvent themselves

I think that's part of what the brand means is reinvent yourself every five years and announce a new product lineup

Yes, you know for stuff that isn't selling

They could introduce some hands-on thing

Is that part of the answer to make EVs or any car more personal to you and make you want to invest in it

I wonder if other car companies should even consider it Porsche

Won't exactly let you in Ferrari is not going to let well Ferrari if you offer him enough money

They'll let you in Ferrari is connected directly to purse strings

They are I mean it always is for sure

But I think Lotus does have specific defining features and characteristics that make it Lotus

So I don't think if if they wanted to partner with any kind of

Engine manufacturer you know Mercedes is a great example

But yeah, I don't think any of us would care

What parts are on the car if they stuck to those core principles. I love that you brought that up

Bring an engine from here Toyota Mercedes. We don't care a gearbox from here

Just make it work. Make it work good. We're cool with all these parts

You've got a lot of all those switch gear in your car. Yes, it works great. Nobody cares

Nope, it's an awesome car and it still has a personality and a distinct flavor of its own

It is the Lotus

Emira

Yes, absolutely. I don't think any of us would care it here to those core principles

And sure source your parts from wherever we're good with it. Yes, you hit on the Lotus

Another thing was on my brain. I love that we both wind up the same place

And that is this is a company for all of the fits and starts for all of the failures for whatever

That it's small light good handling cars. You already said it. That's exactly who they are and a heavy EV

SUV

Nobody is looking to Lotus for that and 52% year-over-year decline in sales as I as I said already look

Nobody product mix. Yeah outside of China

Nobody cares and in China you're going to buy a different Chinese EV

I

Don't think that that everything that goes against what Lotus is known is the way forward for the brand

Because I don't think Porsche has a reputation for being somewhat reliable

Yes, and for much I love the thing Lotus does not

So you're buying your family SUV

From a company who has questionable reliability that is making it in EV

So now it's heavy

Doesn't handle well doesn't have steering feel which frankly you could buy from someone else

Hello, Toyota dealer. Yes, exactly or whoever. I mean go to Porsche go to I mean hack by a Mazurati because it's not no more of a dice roll for that SUV

Let's be honest

Let's be honest in and I whether even if even if let's say the let's say the electric SUV is super reliable

from a brand perception

Somebody buying a family SUV that is debating Mazurati

Lamborghini or us or electric that's equivalent on what it's going to cost me to run on what the reliability is going to be

It's going to be no question and if they know a little bit they're going to go what the earth is related to the Porsche Cayenne

That'll be the reliable one

But nobody wants choice they want that they want the availability. You can't just be the same old same old

So when those brands come around and they offer this kind of choice and they're different brands like you know

I've never tried that before that sounds kind of exciting

And Mazurati could use that as their new marketing slogan

Mazurati at least were one notch better than Lotus

But reliability I think I think the lotus way forward is to be I know we started with slantists

But to be a subsidiary of whatever their larger company isn't Julie is working right now, okay

But let them be what they are and my point here is

They need to make this is their product now a lightweight sports car and a good handling

Rear-wheel drive Ford or sedan

Not an EV sedan

Yeah, the the number of people that write to us for this podcast that want a

Three series and I'm talking like three series from the year 2000 a three-series sized yes mid-size sedan that is rear-wheel drive with good handling

We get those emails constantly now. I realize we're talking to an enthusiast audience

but if there was if Lotus made

a

E90 three-series size with mid-2000 three-series size rear-wheel drive sedan with good styling

With a manual option

That would sell you would buy that from Lotus you're not gonna buy your SUV

You're not gonna buy your EV sedan. No other people go buy a Tesla model plaid if you want a fast

sleek looking

EV sedan just just buy that and call it a day. Okay, don't don't go over to Lotus and I love Lotus, but don't go over to Lotus

Seriously, don't go over to Lotus

I love the brand, but seriously if they were making

I know this is kind of tangential, but the number of you that wish there was a

GR86 in Ford or

Is almost universal where's that from Lotus that just slightly larger than that we're talking

late 90s M3 size Ford or rear-wheel drive with Lotus handling

That would sell Lotus needs to be Morgan or

MG or whatever where they make a thing you know they make and now we're done

They can't be every brand because their reputation isn't broad enough the reliability reputation isn't good enough

And if you're just making Chinese EVs

Buy something else and the Chinese EVs they already got that covered

Yes, for sure for sure. I mean, and I love the brand and I hope that the Amira is not the last of the breed

I really really love mine

We drove it like crazy this last weekend. They're gonna milk that forever

We will be the Amira GT and the Mirage T.S

But I'm just saying last of the breed as far as them making a what Lotus has known for with a gasoline engine

And I don't mind hybridization either

But clearly the market is not saying EVs in my sports car

Right, that's the market doesn't want that we should V8 swap in Amira

Well, that's a whole market you remember they did that with the Esprit you bring that up because there's been a discussion actually from

And this is actually the last thought I had there

There's been a discussion from the leader of Glee

And Lotus that the V6 in my car which is the 3.5 liter Toyota V6

That's been in many other things including the Camryon is awesome with the supercharged love the supercharger wine

Anybody that was in my car the last few days

We had the Utah Park City drive days and people loved it

But that engine again back to standards doesn't pass the new EU emission standards

Which is why they had trouble actually classifying it here as well

So they're gonna have to kill that engine and lean into something else

The AMG is gonna work now keep in mind. That's an engine Toyota's no longer making for the same reason

So that engine they're gonna have to replace it

So now I'm reading about the loosening of the cafe standards. We'll see. So now there's that they can still make it for different regions

They can make they need the Hethel plant. It's all exactly. They've got different

But that's got the discussion happening at Glee about should we put a V8 in the back of the Amira

And then what V8 would pass standards and of course one of the ones that's come up is the 4 liter by turbo

Mercedes motor because oh my gosh

Yes, but manual transmission matters in this car. Yes, so what do you do?

I am very curious to see as you've already said look at the a spree

Look at the list of the a spree from when it was the James Bond submarine card when they finished selling in the mid 2000s

I loved every generation

But every two or three years it got a different engine

They've practically copied that with the Amira because it was originally a 4 cylinder

Yes, what they've got the Mercedes 4 cylinder. Yep. It's almost a carbon copy of what they want to do

It's it's in their DNA. Yeah, they kind of want to be pushed into

shoving a V8 into the back of that thing and figuring it out. I agree

Okay, it weighs a little more, but V8, but don't you want it? Yeah, for sure

Yeah, absolutely. I hope that that's where this goes

And I hope there is a car behind the the Amira that also has a gasoline motor and I want

I think Lotus is in a rare spot where they need to be Lotus just that and not try to be anything else

That is the lesson and also bring back Lotus engineering. They probably still have it around

They don't have no that's why the Amira is as good as it is and there's why they still do

Under the radar. This is the thing you don't realize the number of cars that have been touched by Lotus

Yes, but most of those carmakers in the 90s you could put the handling by Lotus badge

That's what I'm talking about. That rarely happens now. They keep it under wraps

But there's a lot of stuff going on with Lotus. That hallowed bad. Yep. Yep. Yeah handling by Lotus engineering by Lotus

Anything by Lotus

That's what car companies want. They have the DNA and the recipe

In spades more than any other car manufacturer. It's amazing. Yeah when you talk about a particular car brand I quick

What is Audi known for? What true? What is BMW known for what is Hyundai known for quick go just yeah right off the top of your head

When we come to Lotus light weight

Handling handling you're right. That's only right hallowed badge. It's all come around

So let's make a 6,000 pound EV with no steering feel Lotus

Dodge

Everybody everyone makes that Lotus should not

Hi, I'm Lexi your friend and jeweler at shame company will help you find last minute gifts that don't look last minute

Even if you're still planning to propose at shame company will show you perfect gifts at perfect prices in stock and ready to give

Like hand match diamond studs 14 karat gold chains or the ultimate gift a beautiful engagement ring

We have longer store hours so you can skip the crowds and shop when you want or visit us at shameco.com

Because a friend wants you to be a holiday hero shame company your friend and jeweler

Griot's garage is our official car care partner and one of our very first sponsors for the show

They don't just make great car care products. They want you to get out and drive your car

Griot's is a family owned company and they've been a part of every one of our road trips

We always take speed shine on every shoot helping a spot clean cars at a moment's notice

They're foaming glass cleaner is the quickest and best way we've ever found to get windows cleaned before big day of driving

And they're always releasing new and improved products like their updated wash bucket too

Plus all of griot's liquid products are 100% guaranteed and made right here in the USA

The griot's people are always happy to answer any questions to make sure you get the right product and the right results

So get the best quality car care products out there from a company that has always supported this show

Our audience can always get at least 10% off by using the code driver 10 at griot's garage.com

Great car debate for today the first one is from Paul and Toronto who is moving to Switzerland for three years

Paul thank you for writing really appreciate it

He is a long time listener and viewer

He writes this as he watches episode

2003 on YouTube he discovered our content YouTube many years ago started listening to the podcast in the 60s

Wow, not the 1960s the episode six we haven't been around that one of the clarify that yeah

Well his company is moving Paul to Switzerland for three years

So he writes yay twisty mountain roads a sweet reprieve from the flat grids of Toronto, but oh ridiculous Swiss prices for cars

So here's his debate. He needs to buy one family car

And up to six six fun cars for himself now

I must add this disclaimer because as the email goes on he means six over a period of time not six up front

It's not seven cars when he moved to Switzerland. I'm buying seven cars. Well, it's going to be over the period of time

Yeah, as I read this it develops the other reason for potentially six cars is he's he's up for a family car for three years

and he

Moves through fund cars every six months or so for the three years and gets us to that many cars

Or let's do three can't family cars one per year and three fund cars one per year

We're talking about up to six potential cars for his three years there

He wants to have new life experience. I mean Switzerland's going to be an amazing new life experience anyway

Paul and I'm very excited for you, but yeah

I'm buying six cars that I would wait we're doing what that as I read it was like okay

We're not like running out buying six cars. It's just we're looking for potentially as many family

Six cars of of life experience while we're there. Yes

All right, well Paul's had the disease from about the age of three

I think that's most of us. Yes for sure his mother claims he could name all the cars on the road

He's not sure if that's true, but he's never really indulged himself as practicality. He has always won out

I feel like that is a common thread when people write to us. Yes practicality has been part of the life for so long

They're about to throw caution to the wind. Yep

Paul grew up in a very modest household no flashy cars in his history

Most notably a Plymouth reliant wagon, which left him with a lifelong hate of anything Chrysler and by extension

Stellantis it all comes back around we started with Stellantis. We're there again. I like it in college

He was lucky enough to get a hand me down 89 old cutless Sierra

He considers that his first car and he enters into an era of car despair

He he names so many cars that he's had he tells us about the used Honda Civic

SI manual that he had he talked about the 94 Mazda 626 V6 manual that the salesperson told him it handled like an Audi A4

And that sold him it sold him maybe was not sure that was true

Yeah, there's been a lot of bizarre cars in his lineup

It here's the thing for a minute it was looking pretty cool his girlfriend that then became his wife had a

Year 2000 golf GTI VR 6 manual. He was like this is amazing turns out

It was her ex-boyfriends recommendation. She didn't really like cars, but she got that anyway

And then when they got together and she became his minister of finance with kids and mortgage and everything the list of cars after that

is

Vanilla family cars and what's terrifying is how many of them are outbacks

Five I count five three four five sit I get six

Yeah, uh there because he still has another one right now. That was the thing we ended up with another one after all of this

There's so much and here's the thing at one point

He got a big promotion in his life. Thank you still corporate

But now has a car allowance instead of cars being provided by the way the reason for four outbacks in arose

Because that was on the list of a potential company car he had four so there you go outbacks in a row

I understand why that happens

But this is why this was boring

You got a Mazda CX9 your first time to have a turbo

I actually loved it when you had your car allowance try to Volkswagen atlas

Only were able to get the two-liter turbo. It wasn't nearly good enough

Then you wound up in an Audi Q7 family car still paid for with the car allowance

You actually think it's got good power and good handling and then you kind of

Back out and go but that's based on my life experience

Maybe not but you've just gotten into in the last few years

You got your wife a 2020 Kia tell you ride based a little bit on our show and she loves it

So then you had the moment that I'm facing

First child about turn 16 and he thought I'm an excuse for a third car

That would be awesome

What can I get that would be inexpensive that the kids could learn on and you talked yourself into some crazy ideas

You said Audi S8. I mean wow, okay. Maybe an old BMW M3

Yikes

But then while you're debating a crazy car you could buy that the kids could learn on

Your father-in-law realized it was time for him to stop driving and he had a car

That he was able to give to your son to drive and wait for it you probably see it coming

2018 Subaru outback

That was the sixth outback that I didn't count

Six six of them

Yeah, okay got it

He says this is a long-winded way to get to the debate

But he is moving to Switzerland with his wife two of his three kids plus the family dog Bruce

His kids are adult-sized teens and they are taller people. He's got the same proportions as me as we do essentially

He's tall six foot three. I'm wondering if he means shorter torso longer legs necessarily by the way tall people

Not the quite sure

About the only car that all of the family members don't complain about being in is the second row of the tell you ride

No one wants to sit behind Paul

So he needs one vehicle for family duties road trips skiing mountain biking

The dog Bruce usually takes shotgun will reluctantly get relegated to the back seat and then

Will concede sitting in the far back. Yes doesn't like the hatch, but we'll do it if it I'm wondering is your dog

One of those dogs that winds when it's in the place. It doesn't want to be at a line the whole car ride is that why Bruce sits up front

Yeah, anyway, Paul is also a believer in not trying to replicate his North American lifestyle in Europe

I think that's key

Absolutely, but rather embracing it and living like Europeans which means he's open to a diesel station wagon

I mean really the only reason we do this podcast Paul is so people say they're open to a diesel station wagon

I mean, that's really we've accomplished it now. We're done. It's excellent

He said he'll take any of those suggestions as long as they're all we'll drive can fit all the gear and family members

They and something new enough to have car play great if it was something fun and reliable to

So excited. I think I have the car for you. I think I've got it

This will be the first time he can feel like he can be more self-centered in the car choice for him though

We'll choose the family car. Yes, and then the car for Paul needs to commute

25 minutes to work and be driven for fun on the weekends

Then Nürburgring is only six and a half hours away

Only six and a half hours away. Yes, a bit of a trek. Yep. You might want to get a weekend

You could do a weekend. Yeah, don't drive and drive back

Just go out there for the weekend for sure. Yeah, you should take your own car on it. Absolutely

That way you can get the sticker on the back and you know have the

Yeah, I'm sure he's not well versed in the European cars

That we don't get in North America. So he needs some help

He's thinking he could try a different car

Every year for the three years he's supposed to be there or maybe a summer and winter car every year

So that's why he's saying at least the family car and then up to six cars

Others yes, uh-huh

Please recommend two to three cars and how a guy who's standard of high performance is set by an Audi Q7

Should ease into fun car ownership. Does he start with a hot hatch and work his way up to came in ownership

Or does he go straight for the Lotus Elise?

That's probably a bit too far. Yeah, he writes that he's a pretty senior guy in a global head office

So he can't go to boy racer. So nothing with a giant wing. Maybe just a small wing. Just a winglet exactly

But the fun car must be a manual

Okay, ideally rear wheel or all-wheel drive he writes the Swiss are highly militant on speeding

So power is less important than handling not to worry about reliability or efficiency

He's never had a convertible and would be open to it

But he knows hard tops handle better sure, but I wouldn't let that be the turn

I would never show away from a convertible because of handling. I wouldn't do it

Yeah, he's open to a two-seater

So that means he will have to choose between his wife and the dog. Yeah, one of them is going, but not both yes

Please no EVs

No Stellantarian products no Stellantis

Nothing that we wouldn't fit into comfortably and he is considering Audi S5 V8

BMW Z4 came in Boxster 911 Elise mini Cooper S Golf R GTI GR86 all those

Those fun cars GR86 though. That's two boy racer

And if you're the senior manager in a global head office, they'll be like is that your son's car?

Yeah, and a lot and a lot of these cars you could get here even though I've done some of them

But a lot of them you can get here

I really was thinking about let's embrace this European thing

It's the thing I like about this the most Paul is that you want to embrace the European way of life

And I'm going to run through the family cars real quick because I have a couple

That I think you haven't thought of

That I'm very excited to show you and then I'm actually going to show you my wild card and talk about it

You may have the same wild card I do and then we'll get into fun cars in a minute

But you know what you need to do is you need to buy Paul

The BMWs we don't get here a three-series touring or a five-series touring

I mean that they are fantastic. They're available. They're not unique over there

But they're hugely unique to us. We don't get them. So buy yourself

Even if you can do n3 or n5 touring. I mean how high up the the food chain do you want to go

wagons are the right size what you don't realize when you live here

Is that a seven-seat SUV here is a house in Europe

They're huge the ones that we're like there. Yeah, that one's not that big. I mean, I'm not talking suburban

I'm talking like you're tell you ride in Europe

Feels like a really big vehicle in some of those towns

So so a wagon and I'm not saying that the five-series wagon is small because it's not but the wagons because the lower ride height and all that

They just work better. You're not driving a billboard around. It's it seems oh like it's a large car

And we think if it's not a big lifted stupid thing it can't possibly be big enough

What do you drive big lifted stupid thing seriously? So three or five series wagon

I thought of the Genesis G 70 wagon that we don't get here dang it you took mine. I'm sorry

I also thought of the scoda Octavia wagon another forbidden fruit that is solid

That is essentially an outy variant, but we drove and we actually really liked it those were my family cars

I have a wild card, but those are my normal family cars. Okay. I am going to back your play here

Paul

The car that I think you should go consider is the G 70 shooting brake. It's a great looking car

It's superb and you can get it with the two-liter that is 240 horsepower. I think 260

About 260 pound feet of torque out of the two-liter engine all-wheel drive

It's got the hatch. We don't get it here. We really love how the G 70 drives

Superb and it's just luxury and luxurious enough. Yes, it's not too over the top

It's new not too ostentatious if you drove that to work

I think everybody would be say smart choice. Sure. Wow educated smart savvy choice. Who are you again? Mm-hmm

I think this is absolutely your car look at that. Oh, it's great looking

We see them in the absolutely we see them in the rental fleets when we go to Frankfurt every year

We just kind of walk around it for we just get distracted

We're there to rent a vehicle to take people with us on the pilgrimage trip

And we just walk around the G 70 every single and it's always the base model

But it's the base wagon that we don't get. We're like this is so cool. It's so cool looking

It's it stands out although I will back your diesel station wagon anything pick a say-out pick a scoda

Octavia yeah, anything go watch the top gear reviews on those because we don't get them here and haven't really had a chance to drive them

But I recommend all of those wagons there are I think top gear gave them all about eight out of tens for all the say-out the scoda

The wagons they're good. It's just that fussy Volkswagen

Buttonless interface that prevents them from getting hot really high marks

But if that's it you're only there three years and you'll trade it out for an RS6 or the new M5 touring

I'm gonna sell one of these. I'm gonna sell one of these one day

Somebody's going to buy an M5 touring because they heard it here on the show

Maybe you'll work your way there start with the Genesis G 70 shooting break

What a fantastic car. I think it's very cool. I even looked up Genesis of Switzerland

Shooting break awesome. I love it. Yes, I love it

I have a wild card that is that I'm kind of excited about it

I'm kind of surprised you didn't bring it up

But it is my wild card family car and it is ridiculous. It's utterly ridiculous

But we were just in it recently and that is this guy it is the CUPRA with the five cylinder

That is the CUPRA Golf R rebadged thing called the four mentor

It is look the golf has surprisingly big back seats. It's not a huge hat, but surprisingly big back seats

This is the right-sized SUV for Europe because it's essentially a golf, okay

But it's slightly lifted it has this very angry SUV look it has the five cylinder you look you can get it

Even an EV you can get it in in small horsepower

Normal gasoline motors, but this is the five cylinder out of the RS3

So it has that engine. It has that power which makes it super fun in an SUV-ish package

With a really big backseat because it's based on a golf

This is my wild card family car because I suspect this is significantly smaller than what you're looking at

Learning Europe

Like you know what this might work. It's super cool. I'm not sure where Bruce goes

Maybe Bruce does have to go in the hatch

But I we had this when we were in Germany this last year Tom brought it out

Tom Homansek who's who's done pieces force in fact years ago you and I did a three-man review. We did of us go to our

Octavio wagon this is probably five six years ago. It was you and me and Tom

That was quite an edit super cool. That was very fun

So Tom brought this because he knew we hadn't been in it yet and we were incredibly impressed

I think that is your wild card family car, but then I thought about fun cars for you

And I thought of I'm trying to stay away from stuff we get because yes

Absolutely Paul by a boxer be happy

You should have that experience while you're over there

I think you should drive a boxer because it is so very European even though we get it here

Buy it take it all over Germany take it all over Switzerland a boxer with the top down to be an amazing experience

Even though it's not a unique car to Europe, but you know what is

Is this guy the i30 in from Hyundai oh the i30 the i30 is essentially the

Elantra in hatchback form and you have

Manual transmission front wheel drive great dynamics the reason I bring this up is because every year we go to to Germany

And we rent cars from rsr

Somebody will rent the i30 in because it is in the lower part of the price bracket for the trip

And they come in going wow I got the i30 and then we talked to him as soon as they get out of it and they're like that car's

Amazing minds are blown. They're just like I got it because I think it'll be enough

And then they're just wowed by it. What ends up happening when we get to our road tour day is the people that rented the big stuff

Try the i30 in because like why is this so good and they get out of it going that thing's great

Questioning my choices seriously. They rented the big stuff. So the i30 in for like a daily commute car now

You can get it in this this cool blue, but you can also get any normal colors

You can get in the silver. I think you can get it in a black

So this can be made subtle even though I love the cool blue of it

So if this is your car you're going to commute in and it isn't in a bright color nobody's going to look twice

But you're going to have fun Paul that's what I really like about this

So this is my main one for you, but I have one other one that I can't

Ignore because you're in Europe. Okay, and I have one night. I'm wondering probably the same one you thought of

Yeah, Alpine A110 you're over there in Europe. They have Alpines my point is yes

We're here in the US. Yes, unable to drive Alpine A110s every day unable to buy them

And you're going to be in Switzerland and they're just

For sale

They're just they're out there you could just go buy one

I'm just saying if you're over there having a European experience

Even if you don't have it for a long because I know that's part of the fun for you on this whole discussion Paul

Go get yourself an Alpine A110. Oh, yes, please

I will give you my first choice for your fun car Paul and that is

Something we just recently drove against the ND3 Miata. That is

The Z4 the new Z4 M40i manual 382 horsepower, which is totally sandbagging on the power

369 pound of feet of torque that is also

We think it's way more

But look at this thing. It's sophisticated and to your point even though we get it in North America

Yeah, it just seems different when you're in Germany when you just see us more European it just seems

Appropriate it just seems like it fits even better

Hours was 77,000. I went and looked at them in Roni again

It was 77,000 dollars which means when you drive this to work

It's going to be a very classy sophisticated choice a high-end luxury car manufacturer in Europe

BMW yeah, oh the Z4 oh, it's a bit of a sports car, but it's not so hard core true that it's it seems unusable or too exotic like

Oh, but it's manual. Ah, I mean in Europe they get a whole lot more manual so it's not really a surprise

But I think this is just it's just a nice executive's car exactly right. It's not a crazy executive. It's not crazy

Yeah, but I also think you can take this bombing on the out of on you can also take it to the ring

And successfully drive it and just the small ring sticker

On the back window or the back bumper just the small one. Yeah, I love it

And so executives your your fellow co-workers will see this like wow classy sophisticated sports car not too over the top

Not the hottest it's not the hottest 9.11. You're not rocking a turbo s true. Not 11. Yeah, whoo

sophisticated choice

But I am in full agreement with Todd

We didn't just finally drive an Alpine A110 we we got to drive one in North America thanks to our friend Ben who watches the show

He's in France. He doesn't live too far from Le Mans actually and we drove that car not one like it

We drove it it just came out on our original channel. Yep. It is the

06 versus Alpine A110 GT. This is isn't even the hot version

250 horsepower the GT he did some suspension upgrades seven speed GT DCT

What a superb car excellent Alpine A110s are for sale

And it's a very it's a European car European experience in Switzerland by an Alpine A110

I think it's amazing and I actually have a friend currently who lives in Switzerland and he

He always texts me. I get what's that from him randomly about some crazy car he's seen because

Switzerland may be draconian with keeping your speeds down

But they buy the big stuff

He sees every high-end car you can imagine with super crazy power all the big V12s all the big expect

I get like a constant

Car show feed from him because he takes his kids to school and a lot of the kids that come to school come in very high-end stuff

He's like I saw this today

So Switzerland likes their high-end cars even if they don't get to drive them very fast

But come on Alpine A110 is the answer I think new used we think you should rock this car

It's just so delightful to drive watch our review on that hopefully that'll give you a little bit of a taste as to what we experienced

In comparison to something that is very much North American and

American American market it is

To completely different cars, but there is a through line there. So watch that review

Wishing you luck on g70 shooting brake shopping

And Alpine A110 hunting cars for the family and Bruce. That's good. That's good stuff right to us every day driver tv at gmail.com

Topic Tuesday's car conclusions and Alpine A110 GT's

When the holidays start to feel a bit repetitive reach for a sprite winter spiced cranberry

And put your twist on tradition a bold cranberry and winter spiced flavor fusion

Sprite winter spiced cranberry is a refreshing way to shake things up this sip and season and only for limited time

Sprite obey your thirst

You

Second car debate is from Andy writing in from Sydney, Australia

We love hearing from down under they actually write to us often we have a pretty big contingency of an audience down in Australia

And I know what you're saying

We should come down there and yes, we should we need to yes, but it is on the list

But we'll figure it out at some point

But anyway and he's writing in with that that pivotal thing that happens we've had many many of you right in

He says fairly common question and he's right

He has had all kinds of fun cars

But child number two is on the way

Congratulations Andy, which means which means that his beloved

1998 Mitsubishi Evo 5 we talked about cars we didn't get here

Evo 5 will be on the market very soon

Because he's realizing that is not a car for a dad who needs to take two kids around

So he is selling that one and it is a bummer for him

But he's sitting here going. I need something that will take

Modern baby seats

Rear-facing child seats that actually will plug in properly

His wife has a BMW X3 M40i does most of the family work

But if that car goes somewhere and the kids need to do anything in another car

That's what we're shopping for

So he has gotten rid or is getting rid of that Mitsubishi

And this is he's headed down to what is an enthusiast dad drive

Which is a question we get a lot

Thanks for writing Andy sure appreciate it

I love that you're pretty much considering everything

Anything and everything he lists F80 M3's E90 M3's B7 generation RS4's

B8 generation RS4's ISF Julia Quantifolios

He said a B7 RS4 wagon would be the perfect option

Because he'd still love to keep a manual which is so rare

Sure, but they're so rare in Australia as of his email

There's none for sale in the country

Nationwide. Yes

Incredible. He says our days of owning performance oriented driver focus cars are nary and n

So he does have a preference to own something that's more old school like a V8

He has no issues with fuel efficiency or MPG as we say on the other side of the world

Daily ride comfort does not concern him too much

As the drivability performance enjoyment that takes priority

Okay, I like it

He said budget wise the older cars are a lower purchase price

But he would use the fun save for more preventative maintenance and upgrades expected along the way good

And he only has garage space for two cars

He refuses to have even one of his cars parked outside

It would have been a dream to hold the evos the track car

And an additional family car in the mix

But he says he's owned predominantly Japanese performance cars

So the switch to European for a change is what's leading him to all of these options

Okay, they get the EVO 9 wagons as an import and that would have been an easy choice

If he wanted to stay with Japanese cars

But since we had such hugely positive reviews on the Julia

He is now actually wondering if it is truly head and shoulders above the rest

And he would stretch his budget but can't put a price on getting the best option

Okay, so Andy I do have choices for you

I am

Excited to share here. Let's see. I'm gonna pull those up

On photos here and I'm going to

Start you know what I'm gonna start in reverse order. Okay

There we go

Simply because I want you to just

entertain the thought

Everything that I'm offering to you is a V8

The Lexus IS 500

F-sport with the V8 not offered in manual

The problem is when I went looking in Australia

They're like a hundred and nineteen thousand dollars

I was gonna say they're probably really expensive aren't they yeah

They're really expensive but I just wanted to tease you

Because I did love your choice on the list of the

90 M3 with that

Fantastic 414 horsepower V8

It's a great engine and a great version of that car. Yeah unbelievable car

But I just want to remind you

Andy that you're in Australia

And if we were to say the Chevy SS here it's the Holden Commodore VF there

Go get yourself the Holden Commodore V8 family car

I like the BMW E90 M3 but yeah

I could justify it as hey to BMWs in the garage or I could say you know what

To be BMWs in the garage. Yep

Maybe go for the Holden Commodore. I bet these are in your price range and what I like about them is

They're more ubiquitous there so parts service everything about it

Holden Commodore family vehicle kids in the back

Isofics burnouts

V8

This is your car. This is what I'm thinking

This is funny because I want to step to the side really quickly Andy and say yes

I do like the Julia just that much

It is good in four-cylinder turbo. It's good like that

It's the way you want it as a quadrofolio. I don't know that that's your budget

I don't know that that's where we are

But it's another one of those moments where Paul and I just decided to kind of go the same place

But different because did you realize that the Holden Commodore comes as a wagon

I'll see there. There we go. There we go. It comes as a wagon

We didn't get an SS wagon it comes as a wagon holden Commodore

I think is the is the play even if you don't do it for very long and I actually

Part of me honestly wonders Andy if you're going. I don't want anything that's australian

Maybe that's where you're at maybe you want something but but you're asking for you think your enthusiast days are done

You're asking for something V8 and manual and I'm sitting here just like you are Paul going that exists made locally

In variants like this wagon we didn't even get and the greatest thing about the SS or in your case the holden Commodore

Is that it drives that they joked about it in the US as being the four-door Corvette and I thought that was a ridiculous marketing

Employment how I drove it and went you know almost

No, it's it's the here's the thing the the Chevy SS or holden Commodore is the four-door

Corvette in the same way that the Panamera is the four-door 911

You can see it from there. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah great big V8 available in manual available in wagon

This is your hot dad car if you're going to step away from smaller things get into this with the big V8

You're bound to find them there. It's so funny. You said it as well because I was I thought this was the beginning and the end of the discussion

To go with the Commodore it just it's sitting right there probably locally if you're gonna look it up

You're gonna here's the thing you can't find the the EVO wagon that you want or you can't find the RS4 wagon that you want

I bet you you can find pages of these that's where you go

I love it Andy. Thank you for writing. All right. Are you good? Anything more that's the car that I'm right there

Okay, man totally Andy sure appreciate your writing

Thank you for your patronage over the years. Yeah, I hope you're well. Congratulations on your growing family

Send photos of the new holden Commodore that you get

That's where we're going

This episode is brought to you by peloton introducing the new peloton cross-training series

Powered by peloton IQ

Enjoy weekly workout plans tailored to your goals with personalized guidance

With weight suggestions to help you discover new strength and rub tracking so you never lose count

Try the new cross-training series powered by peloton IQ designed for your breakthroughs terms apply

Andrew writes to us with his first car conclusion here podcast episode

498 wow the more things change the more they stay that's the same is the theme

He said back in 2020 he was starting college

Coming up on a major milestone podcast episode and septic but live stream

That's right. He was trying to figure out how to get into auticross

And they had a Honda Odyssey for road trips and daily dog walks that was five years ago

We were headed up to 500 episodes and now in 2025. He's in grad school

We just had our 1000th podcast and he's trying to figure out what he should do to get into the next stage of his car purchases

And they they have a different

And soon to be sold Honda Odyssey so things are the same but things are different

I love it. That's what brings us around to the fact that originally we recommended

Back in 2020 that his father get either a Volkswagen GTI or a focus ST

And Andy was excited because Andrew said you know what he'll get to drive it too

His mom is mortified anytime he drives five years ago now his mom is just mortified

And they were looking at an actual fun car

So anyway in May of 2025 he bought a 2022 his dad did Volkswagen GTI after looking at the Integra

Aspect and the Honda Civic Type R but they took delivery of what Andrew has nicknamed as the mini

mini van

Is the GTI took it home and they're quite happy about it

But they even sent a photo of his dad in the car. It's it's the car that they never really thought they'd have

But that is the fun car that dad ended up with and they're very very excited

Also he has in the background of the photo his own 1998 Lexus named Lexi

Congratulations fantastic. I love it. Thank you for writing

Our next conclusion comes from Benjamin R who is a new Volvo enthusiast

Benjamin's an 18 year old kid that just recently graduated from high school in southern Illinois

He is a military kid so moving every three years is normal

Which led him to go to college at the University of Idaho for Ratsi to be a pilot in the Air Force

That's cool. He's had car love since he was a little kid

I'll be at a family of car indifferent people. I hear you when he got his license

He was given a previous family runabout of an 04 GMC Yukon with 190,000 miles at the time that was given to him

Oh my gosh

He demanded a tire upgrade to all seasons new wheels to replace the corroded stock wheels

Which completely changed the look of the car rights this past winter gave him some reliability issues

Which led to heinous family considering a new vehicle for him to take to college

He said he wanted something engaging reliable enough space to haul friends with a budget of 10 grand

Paul limiter equivalent of 12 grand

He's always had a love for European cars which initially led him to BMW

His grandfather had a mint e92

335i very cool

So he looked at American cars like fiesta STs focuses other SUVs

And that led him to Volvo

Okay, didn't see this coming but it's good after weeks of watching many different models to be sold

He's settled on trying to find a p3 Volvo S80 reasonably powerful very comfortable mid-size sedan

That V8 seemed enticing with its perfect sounding Yamaha engine

Bad fuel economy didn't really jive with him and a 28-hour drive home would be a bank breaker every time

Yes, don't do that in one stent by the way break that 28 hours up anyway moving on yeah great

Well that led him to find a 2010 Volvo S80 T6

With just under 83,000 miles only four hours north

In Chicago when he went up to potentially buy it

He was blown away by the cleanliness the lifelong servicing at dealerships

One owner vehicle and the previous owner traded in to get an outback

So that to an outback okay all right

Well, I mean I understand it was older but okay

All right, but the great thing is he got a deal on this with an even bigger discount because of military

And he got walked out the door with this 2010 Volvo remember his budget was 10 grand he got it for $8700

That's absolutely in love

He said he cannot understate how much he likes this car

Plus Volvo leather seats incredibly comfortable good turbo power all-wheel drive for treacherous

Snowfall in northern Idaho

He said yes, so people put winter tires on it all

I have to say the difference between beat-down Yukon which is cool in its own right and eighty seven hundred dollar

meticulously maintained Volvo is profound

I'm not surprised you're gonna love this on road trips

That's gonna be great for song that 28 hours were the road trip down that's gonna be good

Is excellent and plus your finding Volvo. I love that you kind of got a bigger car

And you weren't thinking just sports cars small lightweight

You were thinking something larger more luxurious and I think that exists in all of us car enthusiasts too that part of us exists

Yes feeding that too I didn't realize it till I bought a faton

But I said but you can haul all your buddies around there be like this is an awfully nice car

What'd you pay again at eighty seven hundred dollars is the answer that's amazing

Send Annie a voice note

Hey sis so okay, you know that cozy hoodie you always deal from Charlie after your workouts

Well, I just went to Lulu lemon and saw they have the same one for women now

I think it's called steady state

Just throwing the idea out there since you haven't added your wish list in the group chat yet

Plus I know how much you love matching Charlie

Anyway talk later. I'll see you at run club

Shop women's steady state now at Lulu lemon dot com

You

Before we get to audience questions. Thank you for writing to us. I wanted to

Fill out a section that we have started called did you see this and I think all of you know my love for furniture good furniture

Actually really high-end furniture very very expensive furniture

I really probably furnish a house

For the cost of one of the pieces of the things you really want

Yeah, I get there slowly, but I I want a house full of

Incredibly different pieces that all somehow have a through line and

Everything is an interesting story. I want that. I want to fill my house with amazing artwork

So if you haven't seen this I wanted to bring this to your attention. Did you see this table from

Discommon dot com there is disk common the website and they are an industrial design studio

Run by three friends found by three friends and disk common goods is the place where you can purchase a lot of their goods

And they're so incredibly well thought out the founder

Actually is quoted as having an allergy to mediocrity

I find that fantastic that this is that part of the internet where I don't ever get there until I talk to you

And then I find myself in crazy places keep going

So what you are looking at is a table that combines my love for furniture

With my love for cars

And this particular piece is a sea and seed aluminum table with the car

Sea and seed rising up out of the surface of the table that is crazy

Aluminum table

But guess what they also offer it in wood in walnut looks like walnut here

It looks incredible sea and seed and so whatever kind of car that you could commission this you can buy what they have

Is it always the same kind of car? No, they continue I've seen GT 40s. I've seen Ferraris

I've seen I think some porches

But half of the car it looks like it's rising up out of the table like the floor in Terminator 2

You know when yeah, that's a great description. That's very right. Yeah behind the vending machine

And he rose up out of the floor. It's like it stopped right in the middle and frozen

In time is this car

Rising out of a piece of furniture out of a table

I have never seen anything like this and it perfectly encapsulates my love for furniture a beautiful table

I have to have beautiful materials and cars all together

Discommon goods go to art because it is furniture that is considered art

And you can go to the website there and find something you can order a bespoke piece

They do the a version of the Concorde out of wood. I'm seeing that on here. It's spectacular

And you never knew that you wanted just an object and we're willing to pay a lot of money just simply for an object

That makes you happy and it's delightful to look at and you just want to live with it

It's so beautiful. That's what furniture is to me. That's what cars are to all of us for sure

This perfectly encapsulates. I love the aluminum table because it's such a conversation piece

I have to I have to say you've got the price haven't you I'm just this bit about the price and I cannot we cannot walk away

without the price

They they begin

At 21,000 dollars and it goes to no money. It's gonna go to at least $24,000 for the full aluminum one

But you but it's series inquiry is only and you have to actually call them and commission it

So I would like to acknowledge they probably want your money before they start the world. Oh, I'm certain

I'd like to acknowledge that a nice car could be bought for the price of this table

Though I have to admit to you pull acknowledge

This is the kind of table that you would have in your house your your house, but specifically that would look phenomenal

I would hate it. It's just

That is a frightening amount of money for something that is I will admit incredibly cool

Incredibly cool that you can't drive, but you can look at and you can appreciate and and and you can share just like you can share a car

With ppf this table. How do you protect this table? You know the I the level of coasters you would have around your house

If you have this table in wood defending this table although consider our preciousness discussion

And especially either wood or aluminum

A dish gets set down or a glass or moisture material something is spilled sure food on your $24,000 table

I know that's a lot of money. That's a lot of money

But an anodized aluminum piece like this eventually the anodization that the anodized part would rub off

With enough use

But what I love about furniture is it develops patina over time the more you use a thing

It develops this patina that does happen to cars but cars you need to actually take care of well

You need to take care of furniture too, but they're they're so the same in my mind. I see you know

There's don't be precious with your table either. Yeah some spots where you know what we've had so many great meals at this table

And my friends over and and there's somewhere in terran various items

And you've played cards or poker or something the first dint in your

20 something thousand dollar bespoke table. I know that everybody's going to be angry

I'm just saying the entire family and everybody that came over that night everybody's feeling bad about themselves

But it is a really cool looking table and I had not seen it. I don't really glad you brought it up

So if you haven't seen it

Discommon goods is where you can buy it and then discommon.com is the the design studio itself allergy to mediocrity

That just resonates like crazy

We have a great question that came up that's a little bit difficult and that was Evan's writing and in saying

Looking at the five major German auto brands BMW or Sadie's Porsche BMW and Audi

If you could erase one from existence all of its history everything it did

Erase one from existence

Which would it be

And the problem is as you go back historically each of these brands has had like a watershed moment where they made a big impression

On all the automakers around them. Oh, so that is the real problem here

But I think the one I'm removing to my surprise is Audi

Okay, now that there's some silver arrow moments early on that would definitely change the way cars developed if Audi wasn't around

And then you've got Quattro that changes rally and you got their their years where they really conquered Le Mans with diesel

So there's definitely things that we would miss

but

Current cars right now

Audi exists, but Audi's not getting a lot of news

Audi's not moonshotting anything. I mean they did with the R8 you could say but

The R8 was a variant of

Lamborghini product it was I think the R8 was interesting because it was Audi doing it

You know what I mean true more than the out if the if the R8 was anybody else

I think we would like it but we wouldn't at the time it would have been like what just happened

The Iron Man effect of the fact that Audi was making a supercar

I think that elevated the R8 the R8 by itself is a very nice mid-engine supercar until we all learned that it was a

Gallardo or the you know, yes

Yes, Gallardo owners like so

Not like that was a watershed moment in car creation

So I actually think of these four as much as it's surprising to say I think

Audi goes away. I think it is the one that does the least destruction

To the pantheon of cars

I think you're right in considering the brands like they're arranged here because

I thought Volkswagen as an entire group if we get rid of Volkswagen group Volkswagen encompasses

VW VW commercial vehicles

Škoda, Seyat, Kupra, Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini, Ducati and Porsche

So if I say Volkswagen is going away

Does that instantly mean all the other brands because then you're left with two Mercedes and BMW and that's it

Fair point. Yeah. All right, but I'm leaving it open because they are all run separately even though

The Porsche and the Volkswagen CTO CTO are pretty much same guy. Yeah, yeah

Porsche can't go away

It can't

Mercedes can't go away the inventor of the modern automobile or the inventor of car. Yeah, yeah, Mercedes can't go away

BMW

They can't go away. Nope. The amount of concepts that BMW has created over the years

Almost exceeds the number of production cars they've actually done

They've done a lot of weird moonshaws. The amount of just screwing around and trying things

They're absolutely right. Concepts represent. That's good

It's almost more than the actual models they've actually brought to market like that you can buy

So therefore if I say VW I think of all the car companies

Audi means Quattro to me. Yeah. Audi means

The classier more gentlemanly the next upgrade from Subaru. Yeah, performance all real drive. Absolutely. Yeah

So if we're leaving it just as Volkswagen the brand I say get rid of Volkswagen because

Aside from the GTI but

Skoda and Sayod can pick up that slack. Certainly Cooper could. Okay, but otherwise VW is a brand

Don't care. You really don't care. I'm not interested. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So for me Volkswagen just

That brand goes away, but then Volkswagen the corporate still needs to have

Lambo and Bentley and Porsche and Ducati and all the rest but Skoda, Sayod and Cooper

They can all pick up the slack with all the other entry entry level bread and butter models. Yeah. Yeah

Specifically because

There's clearly more freedom in styling and design in those other three companies than there is at Volkswagen. It's a good point

So Volkswagen allowed themselves to kind of break out of their shell and start doing some

Wild and crazy stuff and even have that even a tenth of wild and crazy just

Just a small amount and start really pushing on it because you look at the same models from Sayod and Skoda and go

Those are cool looking. I would own those and equivalent VW. I am uninterested in interesting. Yeah, I see it

And that way we get rid of the Tauce and the Tiguan and the T-Rock T-Rock and that way we can get rid of all those

So I say Volkswagen. That's very good. I really like that

Mark is writing in as well and saying power versus handling at a track day

I'm guessing many of you are guessing my answer right here

But he's saying would we rather drive a car with great power and pretty good handling

Or a car with slightly better handling less weight and much less power

He's thinking about it for I guess you're specifically talking about track days, but I'm gonna say in general

Power is a band-aid

It's not a fix for better driving and it's not a fix for a better experience

And we have this conversation at many of our hooked on driving track days in the drivers meeting the running joke is this

And I want to step to the side real quick and say there are plenty of drivers at HOD track days in powerful cars

That drive very quickly and there are plenty of drivers at our track days and all track days that drive Corvettes

Very quickly

Yeah, but we also say in every driver's meeting if you are in a Corvette

And you are coming through the corners and there is a Miata on your tailpipe

It doesn't matter that you're more powerful than him in the straight

You need to let him buy the first passing opportunity because while you could be faster in the straight

They are driving faster than you overall because that's why and you see it every we see it every track day

Somebody in a really powerful car will leave

Everybody in the lightweight stuff and low power stuff on the straight

And then you'll watch them get chewed on over the course of the rest the lap as everybody in the lighter weight cars

Is better handling just works their way up behind them

You should let the lighter car pass a lighter car Miata's GR86

Pick your lightweight car Lotus Elise that handles really well will teach you more as a driver

And I think overall not only will you become a better driver, but I think you will enjoy it more

To have something that handles well

And the other thing that nobody tells you is the powerful stuff is often the heavy stuff

Yes heavy stuff

blows through tires and brakes

Many of the really heavy powerful cars can't get through a single day at the track let alone two days without needing

For new tires and all new brakes and the lighter stuff can go multiple days that way

Over on Facebook Eddie M is currently evaluating the purchase of an allotra N and has observed varying opinions regarding the interior materials

All reviews often cite the presence of hard touch points

It's Eddie's understanding this is a trade-off to maintain the vehicles competitive pricing within the economy cars segment

Is this assessment accurate?

I think it is

mostly

I mean, I'll say yes and that is because the proliferation of techniques to make a material

More cheaply than it actually is represented

Wood paneling wood dash paneling

Stitching we saw the proliferation of stitching to the point where the software from Autodesk that I used to use and sell and and instruct others to use

Actually introduced jitter into the stitching for car manufacturers to introduce

Slop into the steering or into the stitching to make it look like it was hand-look hand-dunge in the dash in the seats

It's called jitter and you could actually adjust make the software adjust you could adjust jitter

You want it to be that's terrible so it starts with software to make it more hand-formed

But all these hard touch points are talking about well, they've got to have texture if it's just shiny hard plastic

That's even cheaper that feels even cheaper so

Car suppliers to all the tears suppliers. They're actually trying to invent

techniques to make a material

mimic something else that is a higher level that

Anything that was first manifested and for me really in the BMW X5 soft touch paint on the door handles

Sure remember the soft touch paint and that door handle felt luxurious. Yeah

And then the five year old version of it was all peeling off and you could scratch it

Totally and totally yes same thing with the Ferraris remember the f355 switch gear the sticky switches

People make businesses just making switches for you to replace in your Ferrari that's their livelihood

Same kind of thing so all the things you touch of course things you look at but when you do touch it

It's not going to feel like what it is

But I feel like we're on the cusp of moving past high gloss piano black

Are we it'd be really nice I'm not sure what's next, but it'd be really nice to move past that yes the open pour would

The nickel plating the the burnished dull aluminum the dull metals look really cool

Yeah, those are really nice textiles even on the dash. Yeah, that's true. That's really nice. Yeah, nice material

Different pales in the seats all of that kind of stuff and then of course higher quality materials

We'll just lend an aura of even higher quality, but I think

I think your assessments correct and and we're gonna continue to see car manufacturers

Really differentiate themselves not just in styling, but in the interior materials themselves

So you get in because that's where you live. Yep. Yep. Wow. This is a nice place to be. Wow. That's different. I like this

Aaron's riding in with two different things later in the hooked on driving his first one is he was talking to his wife

And trying to explain what hooked on driving is and he was explaining instructors etc and how you're learning to drive in the car

And she said wait a minute

Is it like hooked on phonics but for driving my gosh Aaron here's the thing when the company was formed about 20 years ago

It was exactly coined after that

It was like hooked on phonics, which is very popular at the time, but for driving so hooked on driving

We love it because it is beyond just track days

And so it is becoming more and more the adventure side of whatever day driver does which is the media side

We just had this park city drive days

We're doing more later this year. We're gonna do Europe trips again this year and more domestic trips next year

So we'll keep having those trips that are on top of the fact that we have nationwide track days

You can find a track day near you at hooked on driving calm

So yes, we are thrilled about the fact that we're just getting you out and driving which relates directly to this podcast

So that is part of it his second comment was what's our opinion of extreme experience or similar things

Where you get to you pay some money he said he went to one and he has his review

He said he gave it kind of like a six out of ten

But it's the thing where essentially it's an exotic driving experience

You pay typically hundreds of dollars to go and do it's typically like three laps of a racetrack in an exotic car

Aaron ultimately this is fine

But this is not designed

I don't think for the person that is ever driven a sports car or is really a car enthusiast

They are a person that looks at exotic cars from afar while they drive an outback or a minivan

And I'm not making fun of those cars. I'm just saying their lifestyle and headspace is they're never buying a sports car

They're never buying a super car

But they've looked at them from afar and so they can get the chance to say they drove that crazy Lamborghini exactly

I've driven a Ferrari exactly and and the way those are set up honestly

The way the instructor is set up in those situations is totally unlike what we do at hooked on driving the instructor in that situation

They are assembly lining people through as fast as possible

It's not about making you a better driver

It's not about really teaching you the car is literally about getting you around the track successfully and nobody's dented

Because the person that is coming out of and and please don't misunderstand me

I am not coming down on this business model. There is a world for this

It's it's similar to speed Vegas in Vegas that we've been to

The the concept is you're you're selling an experience

You're not selling a car or driving itself

And so the instructor is going to be just about telling you what you need to do

To get around the track successfully to then park the car for the next person

There's no learning involved here. It's survival on the part of the instructor and on the part of the driver

But if the driver's coming out of minivan or whatever they've driven before

That's going to feel like driving a spaceship

The level of power the level of grip is going to be so far beyond whatever they've experienced otherwise

And that is the person's design for I don't have a problem with it

But if you want to learn to driver go to a track day don't do those things bring your car if it is the outback or the minivan

Come to one of our events

Guys we'll leave things there. We've got more questions to get to and we definitely will write to us on social media

Write to us every day driver tv edgmail.com

Anything that's on your mind. We love the car debates

We love topic Tuesdays things that are currently in the news and we're watching too

But we really appreciate you watching we really appreciate those of you listening to

Thank you for your patronage. We've got more coda road trip films coming lots more yeah lots more in the in the pipeline there

And thank you for watching really appreciate it till next time cheers everyone

The Tariff Edition, Lotus Lessons, The Iron Man Effect | Episode 1,005

About this episode

Ram trucks

Porsche

Lotus Wear

Request an Explanation

Want to learn more?

Help improve this episode

More from Everyday Driver Car Debate