These Are The Longest-Lasting Car Brands

Hello, and welcome to the Truth about Cars podcast. I am Tim Healy, the managing editor, and this

week we're talking Longest Lasting Car Brands and more. Karl Brauer stops by to talk about

ICCars.com's Longest Lasting Car Brands and T-Tech contributor Matthew Guy swings by to

discuss socket wrenches. Mr. Guy and I also discussed the NASCAR Playoffs post Kansas.

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you hear on Truth about Cars podcast, please go ahead and give us a review. You can also

find us online at T-Tech.com. That's T-T-A-C dot com or the truth about cars all spelled

out dot com. We are your home for car reviews, car news, opinions, and so much more. Here

in Truth about Cars podcast, we're always talking about the stuff that we use in

our homes in our cars and on our cars. So tools, cleaning products and the like.

So we always had Matthew Guy, T-Tech contributor extraordinaire with us. And Matthew,

how are you doing today? Hey, Tim, I'm doing great. How are you doing today?

I am doing very well, very well. So we were talking about torque wrenches today. So just

trying to have our listeners forgot who might think this is kind of familiar. We talked

about box socket wrenches about a month and a half ago, four or five episodes ago.

So this is torque wrenches are similar, but a little bit different. So I'll let

Matthew explain the difference and we'll go from there.

Yeah, exactly. And when we talked about the wrenches last time, about, you know,

probably six, six episodes or so ago, we were talking about the wrenches that

are, you just use them and crank on them as much as you can, you know, to tighten

up or loosen up the fastener that you're trying to try to install or

remove. And the thing about torque wrenches is that they operate in the

same manner. You still use a socket with them, you know, so that you can adjust

your half inch or 14 millimeter or 17 millimeter fastener, whatever it might

be. But the torque wrenches allow you to really fine tune how tight you are

snugging up that fastener. So to give you an example over the weekend, I was

doing some breaks on an economy car. And this one had two different sets

of bolts that you had to remove. A set of 14s to get the brake pads off. And if

that's all you needed to do, you just needed to remove those two. But I was

also doing the rotors. So there were two 17s as well that allowed you to

remove the larger bracket. And it was very useful, very helpful to use a

torque wrench for those because the 14s especially are part of a slider

system. And if you over tighten them, you can really damage some of the

internals there. There's a lot of leeway with that. But that's something

you don't want to over tighten. So the specs...

You always want to be extra careful when over tightening anything.

For real. And I've done it numerous times. You know, you snap the head

off a bolt and then what was a 20 minute job just became a three hour

ordeal. So I got a torque wrench a while ago off eBay. And mine is

manual. And what I mean by that is the torque wrench itself looks like

a normal socket wrench. And then the bottom of it, you can twist manually

kind of almost like a threaded, almost like a threaded part on the

bottom. And there's readings etched into the handle. And so really, you

just turn the bottom of the handle, the threaded part until it gets

up to the foot pound reading that you're looking for. In my instance

for one of them on that brake service, it was 30 pounds. And then

for the bigger 17 bolts, 17 millimeter bolts, it was about 60

pounds. So you just twist the the bottom of the handle until it

goes up to the etched part on the on the tool, how far you need

to go up. In this case, it was foot pounds. But you can also

get I've noticed on eBay, there's also some really, really

good prices on some good brands, too. These aren't, you

know, random brands that you've never heard of before. For

digital torque wrenches. And those are super, super cool. I

really want to put in and get my hands on one of those. Because

you can really, really set down the torque measurement really,

really precisely on an LCD display that's built right into

the wrench handle. And it's something that you know, I've

heard is lightweight compact, you know, it's good for use in

tight spaces. But it's super, super precise. So if I want to

just get 30 foot pounds, I can do that. And not have to have

much guesswork when I'm working on these vehicles.

Yeah, that must be really nice. And like you said, you can get

it off eBay motors. Yeah, having precise torque measurements. I

mean, I don't know if I've ever used torque wrench like that,

but I definitely seen them in shops and they must be very,

very nice.

Yeah, and there's some really cool ones, even on eBay, that

are secondhand, and they're almost vintage, you know, I

don't know how specific they will be, but they'd be cool to

have in the collection. I mean, I'm at the age now where

it's like, yes, I'm going to start collecting tools, right? And

the measurements, you know, for these things, it's almost like

it's almost like it's like a needle. Okay, if you can if you

can picture like a speedometer, how the speedometer goes up up

up up up up up up until the speed limit. This is the same

thing. The needle goes up up up up up up up up up up up up

up up up up up up until you get to the torque setting that

you've set your torque wrench. So that type of stuff that

stuff is out there. But the really modern ones of digital

torque wrenches from really good brands, they're out there

for less than 100 bucks, American. And they're totally,

totally worth it. Doesn't need to be if anyone's just getting

into wrenching that's listening to our podcast, doesn't have to

be the first thing you go out and buy. But as you slowly

build your arsenal of tools, it's definitely something that

you find your way into your toolbox. There's a three

eighths drive and half inch drive. So depending on the

type of sockets that you use, make sure you get the

right one. If not, there's plenty of adapters out there

that would help you fit the bill for sure. So just looking on

that type of stuff and don't over tighten things. You can

over tighten things. And you also want to go back and

sometimes you want to retorque like if you are swapping out

your winter wheels. If you're doing that yourself, go back,

you know, 100 miles or you know, a couple of days of

driving and retorque those lug nuts and something like

this, this torque wrench will really allow you to do that

and be safe on the road.

Yeah, don't under torque things either. Always make sure

you have the correct torque. Don't want wheels falling off.

So yeah, there we go with torque wrenches here and the

stuff we use segment on the truth about cars podcast.

Matthew, thank you so much for your time.

Hey, thanks for letting me talk about tools again, man. I

appreciate it.

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Here in this week's Truth about Cars podcast, we are

with Carl Brower, the executive analyst over at IC cars.

It's IC, like, like I site cars.com. So I s e cars.com.

Carl, how are you doing today?

I'm doing great, Tim. Thank you for having me on.

Thanks for coming on. So what we're talking about today

is what you guys over at IC cars basically did as your

longest lasting car brand. So you have got a list or I have

a list in front of me. But you will be a little beyond

by the time this podcast goes live will be on iccars.com.

And basically, we're going to work through these different

brands and kind of see what surprises and what doesn't

Carl, why don't you start with giving us the high level

overview, the 30,000 foot view of this study and how it all

played out?

Yeah, so we've been doing this study for over 10 years,

longest lasting cars and longest lasting brands. And

it's really fascinating because we're able to see, you

know, all these vehicles that are coming to market through

all the listings that I see cars has access to and that

plus some very high, finely tuned and honed data

science and and analysis has given us the ability to

basically see and predict the lifespan of given makes

and models. And for this one, for example, we analyzed

over 174 million cars. And the average odometer reading

for each vehicle is calculated each yearly age. And then

there's this proprietary model we've got to kind of figure

out how fast the cars are aging and when they kind of age

out and stop functioning and basically are at the end of

their life. And so what we've been doing this for over 10

years now, and we just keep refining the thing and we

get a little better, not the results haven't changed

very drastically is refine the system, which only I think

further confirms that we've got the system pretty well down

and all, but we do see a little few shifts here and there at

a minor level. And of course, these aren't heavy duty

things models, we can do we look at those two, but we

don't include them in the overall rankings for cars and

brands because you know, there's basically fleet

vehicles usually and they're driven in a completely

different way than most consumers would drive them.

And so those numbers wouldn't really appeal to most of our

audience. But that was that was essentially what we've done

or what we did again this past year, we do this once a year,

this is one of our biggest studies. And I think we're

really well known for it. If you type longest lasting cars

in Google, you'll you'll see us all over the place. So

that's the process and happy to start jumping into the

individual brands. And this just so you know, your

listeners know, we're going to do the brands now, and

then we're going to release the cars after we do the

brands. So this is kind of a lead into the cars, but we

start out with our brands.

A little bit of a teaser. So yeah, so looking at brands, the

the top three, actually, let's just go with top five. So top

three are Toyota, excuse me, top five, Toyota, Lexus, Honda,

Acura and GMC. Not a ton of surprise there.

No, you know, we've just seen these Toyota models landing

where they land since we started this and whether

you want to talk about things like Land Cruisers or

forerunners, more recently, Sequoias, you know, these are

very long lasting vehicles, they go a long time. And I think

what's more interesting when you look at the brand list that

we've got here and that we're discussing is the

consistency across the brand. In other words, you can

find a long lasting model within a lot of brands. What's

tough is to have a lot of long lasting models or most of

your models lasting a long time. And the brands that you

just mentioned that are at the top of the list here, that's

what they've got going for them. They have a widely

diverse set of long lasting vehicles versus only one or

two out of a huge list of models. And, you know, it's

probably not too surprising when people hear Toyota

Lexus or even Honda and Acura, those are the first four.

You know, you got basically Honda and Toyota and their

premium brands. And so they're all doing well, that's

kind of consistent. It makes sense. GMC as you noted is the

first kind of non-Japanese brand in the list. And what do

they make mostly? Trucks and SUVs, right? There is no GMC

car or sedan. They make trucks or SUVs and guess what tend to

last the longest because they're so popular with so many

uses and people tend to use them more aggressively, trucks

and SUVs. So that's what helps GMC. Number six, right

behind GMC is an interesting one that you didn't mention, but

I think people would find interesting that which is Tesla. So

Tesla is actually, you know, just behind the four Japanese

brands and GMC. And of course, they just started making a truck

that wouldn't be even included in our list yet because the

vehicle needs to be a model needs to be a certain amount of

years old before we'll start measuring lifespan. So even

without the Cybertruck, Tesla is number six, which shows

that they've got a pretty heavy, aggressive use from

owners and they seem to last a long time.

Yeah, I didn't mention Tesla because we just hadn't gotten

into the bottom half of the top 10 yet. That was no

conspiracy, Tesla fans. Don't worry. But yeah, and the

bottom half of that top 10 is, as you said, Tesla followed by

Chevrolet, Cadillac, Mazda and Ram. Anything jump out? Let me

try it again. Anything jump out at you there?

You know, Ram, of course, another truck brand Chevrolet, a

high utility and truck brand as well. Cadillac and Mazda, I

think are impressive. You know, this speaks to two more brands

that I think generally have pretty long lasting vehicles,

you know, more so than I probably knew before we started

doing these studies. But they just, you know, they're not

they're not in the top five, but they're in the top 10.

And that's an impressive ranking to be here. In this list, as

you can see, it's 32, two brands that we've got here. So to be in

the top 10, you're in the top third. Yeah, Cadillac and Mazda

just apparently make, you know, fairly high quality cars that

have a long lifespan relative to the other brands.

So following the top 10 is Lincoln Ford. Now, I try to

make sure that I understand your methodology correctly that

Ford's recalls this year, probably don't affect that

correctly, correct?

So the recalls wouldn't have a direct impact on those because

we're not, we're not including that data in in this long

lasting thing.

Because we're looking at lifespan as opposed to, yeah,

right, we're just looking at lifespan. But I think you

could make an argument that if you've got vehicles with a

lot of recalls, everything from how well built they are, the

quality that they have in them is they roll out the out of

the showroom could maybe not be as highly indicated when you have

a lot of recalls to remember lifespan is both how well the

car's holding up and how how hard the owners want to work to

keep driving it. And what's going to make an owner stop

driving a vehicle to troublesome to keep on the road, right?

You got to do too many things. It's costing you too much

money. That's that's when that's why most people retire

cars obviously have cars that get in accidents and other

things like that. Or maybe they have a fatal, you know,

there's one off that had a fatal engine flaw or transmission

flaw and it was not worth fixing it after that. But

generally speaking, the reason a car retires is that it's worn

out. And what's the definition of worn out? It's too

expensive to keep on the road. There are too many regular

problems with the car and the owner. And this might be the

first owner, if someone keeps a car forever, but it's

probably more likely second, third, fifth owner. And

they're like, this car isn't worth the trouble to keep on

the road anymore. And I think all those recalls from

Ford, if you're if you're going in for a lot of

recall activity on top of other things, that probably

only adds to your desire to not use the car anymore.

Yeah, and then switching gears slightly, I'm a little

surprised to see that Nissan is actually ahead of Subaru

and Volvo. And I'm also surprised to see that Subaru

and Volvo are in the middle of the pack 15th and 16th

out of 32.

Yeah, you know, and that gets into an interesting

thing. I mean, you know, at this point, all of them

are almost tied, right? If you look at this is all

based on their percentage chance, by the way, of

reaching 250,000 miles. So this is a very high bar

for, for, you know, what we're asking if we'd have

made this, you know, chances to get to 100,000

miles or 150,000 miles, the percentages would have

been much higher for every brand. And maybe we

would have seen some reshuffling in the order at

this point with Subaru and Nissan and Volvo were

down to 2.4%, 2.3% and 2.2%. So, you know,

they're almost a statistical tie for those, those

three. And, you know, going up to Ram, that's

3.5% and down to infinity, it's 2.1%. So again,

not even really a huge swing between those, those

brands. But all that said, I think, you know,

Volvo and Subaru are probably brands that you

have a certain amount of enthusiasts who want to

keep going. And, you know, they talk about them

on the forums and maybe they show up in news stories

and stuff like that. But this is looking at, again,

all the models that they sell over a wide span

of time. And apparently, you know, compared to

Tesla and GMC and Honda and Lexus and Toyota,

there's just not as many of those cars lasting

as long.

Makes sense, makes sense. So the other thing

that stuck out, let me try it again. The

other thing that stood out to me was, I'm

just a little bit stumbly today, don't blame

allergies. But what stood out to me was that Kia

and Hyundai were just at 0.6%. And those are

two brands that have a reputation, at least

anecdotally, I don't have, like JV Power

numbers in front of me or data other than the

data we're talking about today. Those are

two brands that anecdotally have a lot of

reputation as improving. You know, Hyundai

and Kia had a lot of problems in terms of

mechanical issues when they were first brought

to the States. And then they've gotten

steadily better over the years. And certainly

the cars have gotten better in terms of

design and new car product and driving

dynamics, features, all that sort of thing.

But obviously there are also companies that

have very long warranties. That's part of

the reason they got some popularity is

they brought some consumers back by

improving their warranties. So that's a

long way of asking, are the numbers you're

seeing in Hyundai Kia skewed by the older

models that weren't quite as good or have

the newer models not quite looked up to the

hype? I think it's both of those things.

I think multiple factors. First of all, as

you said, we're looking at a long time

frame here. And I would certainly make an

argument that a 2020 Hyundai and Kia is of

higher quality than a 2010 and drastically

higher than 2000. But because we look at

such a long time frame, those older

ones are still playing a role. You

know, someone like brand like Toyota, they

had long lasting cars 20 years ago, as you

and I both know. I mean, the Corolla's had

a kind of legendary status for decades.

And there's that I don't think anyone

thinks of Hyundai and Kia necessarily as

having legendary individual models that

have just lasted so crazy long. So I

think that's part of part of the what

plays a role here. Remember, they've

got a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty.

So we know their cars, their confidence,

our cars will last 100,000 miles. And

as I said before, I think if we, you

know, we're looking at cars that could

get to 100 or even 150,000 miles, we'd

have much higher percentages for all of

these brands, including Hyundai and Kia.

But what we're trying to do is really

tease out like the elite longest

lasting cars. That's the, you know, we

used to go by the way to 200,000

miles, but too many cars were getting

too good a scores. So kind of the

good news is we had to up the demands

from 200 to 250 because so many cars

were able to last 200,000 miles. And

again, we're trying to look for the

really elite vehicles that last a

long time. I think it's, here's a just

I here's a completely anecdotal,

non-statistic based thing at all. I

have a 2017 Kia Soul in the family

fleet here. And I bought it in 2019

with like 11,000 miles on it and got

the full warranty and everything for

it. I was very happy. And that car

has already had a new engine put in

because it had some kind of fatal flaw

in the crankshaft and something about

to do with the crankshaft sensor and all

that. And I could hear it by the way,

Tim, like for a year or more, at least

probably two years plus after before

we got it worked, you know, all repaired

in the past year, I was like, this

thing doesn't sound good. You know, I

would start it and the noises it

would make right after you started

it. I was like, this is not good.

But I knew we had the warranties. I

was like, well, we're gonna keep

driving it. And kind of fun. It

was actually having my wife help me

do some car to car shooting with a

motorcycle. And I had her like flooring

it to, you know, help get the shots

we needed and all because she had to

floor it when I was going fairly

moderately on the motorcycle to get

the shots. And that that absolutely

hastened it was like all of a sudden

it was making more noise and

everything. And then we took it

in. And ironically, we took it in

because we knew we had a warranty.

And then there was a recall almost

at the exact same time for the

exact same issue that was killing

the engine. So this is again one

instance with one car and one

person. But I thought that was

fascinating to me. It's like, because

I'm a huge fan of honey and Kia, by

the way, I think those brands are

fabulous brands. I think the design

and the ergonomics and the

performance. I think they make the

best electric cars as a whole. I

think they make the best electric

cars on the market right now.

I'm actually a personal huge fan of

honey and Kia. And I bought the

soul because of that. And I've

been relatively happy, not just

not necessarily with the fact

the engine blew up, but with how

well they treated everything from

having the original warranty that

I had in place to having a

recall that completely acknowledged

the problem and took care of

everything without us costing

us any money. But I think it's

somewhat indicative of, okay, we

still don't have Toyotas here.

You know, when we've got, and

this was a recall, there was a

large number of these, and you

don't usually, Toyota Tundra

issue, a recent issue not

withstanding, generally speaking,

you don't hear about these fatal

flaws and failures of major

drivetrain components with

Toyotas. And I personally had to

deal with one with my Kia.

So yeah, yeah, I understand.

So switching gears again

slightly, looking at the bottom

group of this. With the exception

of Buick in 23rd place, these,

the models at the end at the

bottom here are Porsche,

Chrysler, BMW, Volkswagen, Audi,

Land Rover, Jaguar, Mini and

Maserati. With the exception

of Buick, I think none of

those are surprising.

Unfortunately. Did anything stick

out? We've heard, I've heard

anecdotally for years about

anyone I know who owns the

Chrysler product. Now,

obviously this is Chrysler

the brand, separate from

Fiat North America or Fiat,

what they were before

and other Stalantis. So, you

know, or they were FCA before,

but everyone I know who's had

Rams and obviously Rams higher

up on this list as is Dodge.

Most folks I know who have had

any Stalantis product,

product including Jeep as well,

which is a little bit higher at

19th, have had some issues

with quality and going to the

shop and stuff like that.

But for whatever reason,

broken up by brand, they do a

little bit better. But Chrysler

the brand, just not very good.

And, you know, BMW, Audi, Land Rover,

Land Rover, Jaguar and again,

anecdotally, you hear issues all

the time. Volkswagen are a

little surprised because you

feel like their quality is a

little bit better, but they

still have had some problems

as well. Again, anecdotally,

I hear these all the time.

So does anything surprise you

on the bottom of this list?

Because nothing at the bottom

of this list surprises me at

all.

No, it doesn't really surprise

me at all. And one thing I

would throw in there that

our data shows us, which I

think is interesting, is what

causes the end of life of a car.

And as our data analyst, who's

very, you know, kind of just

bottom line, I liked how he

said it. He said, two things

kill a car, time and mileage.

Meaning either a car wears out

because you drove it so

aggressively, or it's just,

or it's worn out because like

everything's falling apart on

it. The interior is coming

apart and, you know, it's

just not worth keeping going

because it's almost like it's

aged out and not because of

major mechanical failures, but

just because like all the

non-mechanical things are just

too old to want to deal with

anymore. And luxury cars

are more commonly died from

age than miles because,

not surprisingly, luxury buyers

tend to not be as aggressive,

right? If you're kind of a

family of five or six and you

get a suburban and you're

going to soccer practice and

you're going on family

vacations and you're driving

the heck out of that car.

And that's what helps those

cars achieve high mileage

mechanically before they age

out like cosmetically and,

you know, wear on the inside

of the cars and stuff like

that. So that's why

mainstream brands tend to age

out mechanically.

Luxury brands are the opposite.

You tend to have older people.

You tend to have people who

aren't necessarily doing

utilitarian things. They're

just driving it around

casually, you know,

locally and stuff. Maybe

maybe run in some general

errands, but they're not

necessarily taking family

vacations and stuff in

these premium brands.

So they end up aging

out by age as opposed to

mechanical and they just never

get to the 250,000 miles

because they just wore out.

They wore out cosmetically

and functionally before they

got worn out by having,

you know, like an engine that

just failed because it had

too many miles on it.

So that's why you see these

luxury brands so far down

on reaching 250,000 miles.

People don't drive them

aggressively enough to get

to 250 before the cars

otherwise too old to bother

wanting to keep running.

Yeah, that makes sense.

And I think to just our

listeners who are maybe a

little confused on the

concept of age versus time,

you put it nicely,

you know, you obviously

things will wear out

as you drive them.

But for time,

I think people forget

sometimes that time wears

out rubber items.

You know, we all know that

if you leave your car too

long, the tires are going

to wear right then and there.

Depending on where you live,

the sun is going to beat

down on your interior

and cause fading and

cracking and paint will

also fade and crack.

Obviously, garaging a car

will help. Obviously,

keeping it out of rain and

snow in the desert sun

will help with these things.

If you plan on keeping

a car a long time

and you don't put a ton of

miles on it,

you want to make sure that

it won't get worn out

if we've won its part,

there are ways to do it.

But I think people always

think of,

I think people think of

cars wearing up on mileage

first without really

also factoring in time.

So that's a really,

that's a really good way

to kind of look at it.

And I think you're probably

right when it comes

luxury cars,

luxury buyers probably don't

put as many miles on them,

especially if you have a,

like you said, an older

older buyers who just

don't drive as much.

So time definitely plays

a factor here that I think

probably gets forgotten

a little bit,

probably gets forgotten

about a little bit.

Well, and here's another

thing too that I probably

should already mention,

but this is undeniably

true.

What, what do you,

what does it take to

keep a car going?

Well, some level of

maintenance,

even regular maintenance

and probably the occasional

as they get older

repair,

hopefully not a major

repair,

but maybe it's certainly

minor repairs.

Well, what's going to cost

the most to keep going

as it ages?

Luxury cars, right?

So again,

it's not just everything

we already talked about,

like how it wears out

because the interior

starts to come apart

or the paint starts to go

and all,

but also

if you're at 110,000 miles

and you've got to go get

a front end work done

on your Toyota Corolla,

that's going to cost you

a lot less than front

end work done on your

BMW,

you know,

five series,

you know,

or even three series

and stuff like that,

you know,

you're going to pay more.

So it's going to be,

I mean,

and you're going to look at,

you're going to go to the dealer

and they're going to say,

it's going to cost you

X amount to get all the,

the ball joints

replaced on this BMW.

And you're like,

this car's already got

120,000 miles.

I'm not sure how much longer

I'm going to drive it.

I'm not going to put

that kind of money in.

The Corolla buyer,

they're going to get

a lower estimate

and they probably have

more confidence

that the drivetrain

is going to go for much

longer,

even if though

they got to spend some money

on suspension things,

but it's not as much money

as they'd have to spend

on the same suspension work

on the BMW

or the Land Rover.

So they say,

yeah,

put the money in,

I'm going to keep the car going.

Another reason

luxury cars tend to

retire earlier

than mainstream models.

Is there anything else

that kind of surprised

or shocked you

as you work

through the data

and put this all together?

I mean,

I'm still surprised

I had to ask the data guys

just like,

help me understand

how the average

is 4.8%.

That's the average

for a brand or a car

to get to 250,000 miles

across everything.

So we take all vehicles,

all models,

all makes into account,

not heavy duties,

but everything else.

The average

car's chance

of getting to 4.8%,

getting to 250,000 miles

is 4.8%.

That's so low.

And yet,

28 of the 32 brands

you might have noticed

are below average

on our list,

Tim.

And I was like,

well, what's going on there?

And they had a good analysis.

They said,

well, picture like

a really big kid

sitting on one side

of a seesaw.

You're going to have to take

a bunch of kids

to get on the other side

to balance it out.

That's what's going on here

is that Honda,

Toyota,

Lexus and Acura

are doing so well

at making long-lasting cars.

They're yanking.

It's like the bell curve

in a class,

in a college class.

And all we all remember

the smarty pants

that made us all

get worse grades.

That's what's going on here

is you just have

such good performance

out of those four brands

that are above average

to Honda,

Toyota

and their premium

divisions

that they're pulling the average up

and higher

than most of the other car

companies can achieve.

And that's why 28 out

of 32 brands

are below average.

Do you see the average

going up over time

either because of

improved quality

by the OEMs

that maybe

haven't quite got there

or because

some of the old lights

we're talking like

Honda IKEA,

some of the older models

are going to drop off.

And then on top of that

just,

you know,

in general

quality is improving

across the board,

it seems like.

So do you see the average

going up at all

or do you think it

will kind of say the same

or go down even?

Average is absolutely going up.

We're getting

it's funny

because I think the numbers

were

a little bit higher.

The rankings weren't that different

but the numbers

were a little bit higher

before our most recent kind of

data science refinement

where we just got that much better

and

I had a better

microscope

and kind of lens

on how to look at the data

and how to

properly record it.

And that actually pulled

this to averages down.

If you go back past years

you'll see the numbers were higher

for getting to 250

but I think they were maybe

not quite as dialed in

as they are now

and that pulled the average down.

But I think

we've really got the methodology

locked in now

and I don't think it's going to

change much.

So without changing the methodology

the short answer

your question

your after this belong

the labor

a long answer Tim is

quality is definitely going up on cars.

Cars are lasting longer

over time

over the time

as years pass

and newer cars come out

engineering

tolerances for the engines

you know

machine

machining

and finishing

and assembly product

processes

everything's getting better

and they're always

making the cars

higher quality

and last longer

as a general rule.

Yeah excellent

that's absolutely true.

So is there anything else

Carol you'd like to add

on this survey

before we let you go?

Just that

you know

this has been really fun

to to

watch this

kind of data

over the past

10 years

working you know

working with IC cars

and seeing how this has evolved

and I really feel like

it's a good way to

shop for a vehicle.

I think

if you're

someone who switches cars

every three years

you know

you're leasing the car

or even you buy cars

and you never keep them

more than five years

and they never see

more than

you know

you never drive a car

with more than 100,000 miles

this probably doesn't matter

that much to you

although I think it would

still probably have some

indication on the

likelihood of issues

you're going to have

even below 100,000 miles

and we talked about

the recall issues

and Ford and some of those things

but

if you're a shopper

who wants to do the

what's always the smartest

thing to do

financially with cars

newer used

is to buy a car

drive it to the wheels

fall off

and rinse and repeat

and that's essentially

what this study is

is when to the

when to the

you know

there's the metaphor

is when to the wheels

fall off

when does the cars

lifespan in

and if you want to get the

most bang for your

but all are

you know

most value out of your

car buying dollar

that means you drive

the car as long as possible

is a great list

for looking at

both makes

in this study

and soon the models

when we release it

that are going to last

you the longest

even if you buy

they also think

the other thing too

is think about a model

that has a high percentage

chance of getting to

250,000 miles

you find a car

on the used car market

with 118,000 miles

reply this thing's

already used up

come look at our list

you're like

actually this car

has got a very high

percentage chance

of getting to 250,000 miles

is not even halfway

through its lifespan

but yet you can probably

pick it up for a very

low cost

you'd want to do PPI

make sure there's

nothing else

you know nothing major

about to go wrong

with the car

but otherwise

it's a great way to get

used cars

that still have life left

that most of the market

might have written off

by now

all right Carl

well thank you so much

for your time

again we've been with

Carl Brower

the executive analyst

over at IC cars

that is IC

as envisioned

so ISEEcars.com

we've been talking

about the longest

lasting brands

and Carl

we'll have you back on

in a few weeks

to discuss

the longest lasting models

once you have

release that to the public

so once again Carl

thank you so much

for your time

fabulous

great talking to you Tim

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and end up in a parking

lot with stranger

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and some blind trust

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here in the truth about

cars podcast

we are always talking

NASCAR just about

each and every week

and we are deep

in the playoffs right now

in fact we are

one race away

from another elimination

and we have

Matthew Guy with us

as always

to talk about it

Matthew how you doing today

hi Tim

looking forward to talking

about Kansas

that was a great race

yeah yeah

so a wild finish

chase Elliott

kind of bouncing

and banging off

Denny Hamlin

to get the win

and in the second

overtime

so do you want to walk us

through

is that what happened there

absolutely

because it was such a

surprise win

within you know

a couple of laps

he went from

if you watch the

in car camera

he went from 8th or 9th

all the way up to the win

and there was

the inspection is complete

I'm just looking at

jayceki.com here now

and I wanted to see

if there was any problems

with inspection

there wasn't

there was no issues

for the number nine

so he's

he's officially the winner

he's locked into the round

of eight

and

for anyone who didn't

see the race

heading into

couple of the last turns

you had

number 11 Joe Gibbs

racing Toyota

which was Denny Hamlin

and the number

23 Toyota

Bobo Wallace

and that is such a unique situation

because

the driver of the 11

co-owns the 23

the W3 Toyota

of 2311 racing

so that's a very unique

and I mean we saw that

you know

eons ago

back when Dale Earnhardt

senior was alive

right

I mean he would

he would be driving

for Richard Childress

but he would have the

the one and the eight

and later on the 15

out there

as his cars

and we saw

and Denny Hamlin has always said this

that on Sunday

he's the driver

right

I mean it doesn't matter

if he's racing one of his own cars

he's going to race those cars

as hard as any other vehicle

that's out there on the track

and you know

that's fine

that's why every single

NASCAR

cup series

drivers out there to win

that day right

so right of course

yeah right

I mean at least

Denny puts it all out on the table

and say you know

Bobo I'm going to race you as hard

as anybody else

so yeah

so going into the

going into a couple of the last laps

the 11 race to 23

really hard for the win

both of them slid up the track

and chase Elliott

you know

then after making his way up

from 8th or 9th

they slowed down enough

to allow chase Elliott

to dart past

both

and score the win

and that was second over time

was it you were saying

I lost track after a while

I believe it was second

yeah

you can correct me if I'm wrong

and our listeners can yell at me

if I'm wrong

but I believe it was second

no man

I don't need to fact check bro

I believe you

and I mean

I appreciate that

yeah man

and Hamlin said afterwards

right I mean

you know

if if anyone

he said quote

if anyone's wanting an apology

you can just turn TV off

right now

right I mean

he said that afterwards

in in in his

I didn't catch that

that sounds like

Denny Hamlin

thing to do

yeah

and I

I empathize with him

after being on track

you know myself

is just definitely

not going to apologize

racing for the win

and his car

was tight all day

he said he had a

power steering problem

people can

believe that or not

because he certainly

didn't seem to have

any trouble steering

back down across the track

to try to prevent the nine

from winning

and I don't

you know

I don't

disagree with his

conduct in

in that regard either

right

so yeah

and you know

his quote

and you know

both guys are going

for the win

right and I mean

his responsibilities

as a team owner

he says

and has said this

many times

have come from Monday

through Saturday

right

it's not up to him

right to get the 2311

into the brand of eight

not his responsibility

right his response

and this was again

on his show

he said

my responsibility

is to get the 11th

into the brand of eight

end quote

and he said

Joe meaning coach

gives

pays him a lot of money

to make sure that car

wins the championship

or has a shot

to do

said to do that

right

and exactly

and he's right

you know

I mean there's a difference in

if he knows

that he doesn't have a car

good enough to win

and he's running blocker

for the 23

if he

if he knows

that he cannot beat the 23

and there's other cars

roaring up behind

on the last laugh

and he can play spoiler

and block

those other cars

to let the 23

go on and win

that's one conversation

and that would be fine

but can you imagine

the outrage

if he didn't have

to get back off

and let the 23 win

right

that would you know

you just you just can't do that

that's not something

these racers are not wired

to do that

so exactly

yeah

and I think you and I

are both on record

as not being

I don't know about you

I wouldn't call myself a

Denny Hamlin

Denny Hamlin fan

but I'm not exactly

a hater either

I no respect

I don't have

I don't have a really

a problem with

and again

I actually sometimes wonder

why people do get so

upset at him

because he does troll

a little bit

and some of his

post race interviews

you know

your favorite driver

is lost today

that quote from a month

or two ago

and whatever

but he

what he does is mostly harmless

I don't

and I've never really seen him do

any more than anybody else

anyway

because I think

all the drivers occasionally

step over the line

I don't think he's really

going over the line

in terms of being

too aggressive of a driver

or making dirty

playing dirty pool

making dirty moves

the only real driver

the only driver

I really see ever do that

is Kurt Busch

and even even he I think is

calmed down in his

old age

and he's also had such a bad year

that he hasn't really

had a chance to even do

some of that stuff

because he's usually

off into the back of the pack

but

you know outside

I first of all I think every driver

even the cleanest

nicest guys

do occasionally cross lines

because I think

they're just human

and that's just what happens

but

I don't really

I really haven't seen

Hamlin do it

more than anybody else

to the point

I haven't seen him do

a lot of unsafe

or really dirty stuff

I mean

actually when I take it back

my stuff was Bush

was the only driver

I forgot

I got

parts to House of R

I forgot House of R

so House of R

and Bush

the two guys

that I really keep an eye on

probably House of R

more of these days

just because he's

he's younger

he's right in the front of the pack

and he hasn't really

pulled back

from some of the

overly aggressive stuff

the way that Bush may have

but yeah

and again

maybe I'm missing stuff

when I watch the race

maybe there's things

I'm not seeing

or things are happening

off camera

you know

if Hamlin's not

in the

not where the camera shot is

but I really haven't seen

and next time

next week

if Charlotte

I'll watch a little more closely

but I haven't really seen

Hamlin make

too many moves

or I'm like

oh my gosh

this guy is just dirty

he's not

I don't know if you

feel the same way but

well I mean

he's not cleaning out cars

to get the wind

right

he's

yeah

not recently

you know what I mean

like in terms of

we can think

of a couple of examples

of that happening

people just driving

through other cars

in order to get the wind

and that

was not what happened

that Kansas

I don't feel in any ways

right I mean

he just

raced the 23

super super hard

he didn't make excuses

for the 23 either

in terms of

where they sit

because they're below the cut

line for advancing

to the next round

of the championship

and they talked

about you know

he criticized

how the 23 team ran

at New Hampshire

and he was right to do so

you know

they didn't have a great day

in New Hampshire

so

I mean a couple of

and

Bubba Wallace again

as well said

you know

a little while ago

I probably would say

something dumb

about this

right

but you know

that's you know

it's a

going for the win

both of them say

that they

disliked

that they gave it to

a Chevy driver

instead of a Toyota

right because

there were

I think it was

like the top four

were

Toyotas

going into the last lap

and then a Chevy

end up winning the race

but yeah

I'm not quite sure

but yeah

I'm fine with that

and he

I mean

they leave Kansas

the 23 leaves

the Kansas

10th

in the standings

and it's a

it's a handful of points

below

it's like 26 points

below

so it's certainly

easy enough for them

not to advance

to the next round

either of the 2311 cars

so

yeah

and it's going to be

interesting

going through Kansas

I'm looking at the standings

here

putting aside

manufacturer

for a moment

I'm just looking

at the standings

here in general

and we have two drivers

locked in

Blaney and Elliott

so

we've done this

every week

since the playoffs

started

I finally figured out

the best way

to really

frame the playoffs

in anyone's mind

so 16 drivers

correct me for

on the 16 drivers

that the first round

right not 12

correct

yep 16

16 drivers

at the first round

so

for those first two rounds

if you had

one different winner

every race

you'd still have people

get locked out

right

because there's four races

around

so eight races

so that

that makes more sense

the more I think about it

so

anyway

I'm just trying to

do the math

my head here but

so we have

Larson Hamlin

Bell

Byron Brisco

and Logano

Logano's

probably got to make it

13 up with one race

to go is a little iffy

if he crashes out earlier

or something like that

he could be

cut

especially

if Chastain

has a good day

obviously

Chastain

Bubba Wallace

Tyler Reddick

and Austin Cinderick

most of them

are not moving out

a lot of win

Chastain's probably the only

I don't really

up top my head

on my points

you can get

for a strong performance

at the Roval

without a win

so

Chastain I think

being only 13

behind the cut line

could

have a good day

and move on

without winning

Wallace

would be iffy

and Reddick

would be iffy

and I think Cinderick

unless he wins is out

so

at 40

able to cut line

I don't think

he's going to have enough

points in one race

to move on

but I really am curious

it's our last

real course of the year

so really

and we don't have

in the mix anymore

although he'll still be

driving I would assume

but we don't have

Van Gisbergen

anymore

you know it's

it's going to be interesting

to see

first of all how

a good race from

Van Gisbergen

could affect the playoff

picture

what if

what if Shane wins it

you know

yeah

what if he runs up front

but then you have

the two other drivers

that are good road trip

drivers

or road course

not road trip

road course drivers

the two guys

that I always think of

especially before

Shane came on the scene

a year or two ago

Chase Elliott

and Kyle Lars

now again

Chase just won

he doesn't need to win again

he's locked in

but Larsen

has done really well

and of course

he's also

in third

so he's

so I'm really kind of

curious

how this thing shakes out

will Elliott win again

even though he doesn't need to

will Larsen get a win

and lock himself in

will Larsen just have

a good day

and be that

be enough to move on

I mean

he's likely to move on

as it is

so I'm really kind of

he doesn't have to win

so I'm very curious

how it's going to go

same because

if SVG

and he had a

really good day

I mean he had a top 10

day at Kansas

so I mean the man

has a bit of momentum

going into the Roval

and then

because he has dominated

the road course tracks

so far this year

I think any

conversation about winners

you're exactly right

at the Charlotte Roval

coming up this week

has to include

the 88 team

even though they are not

competing for a championship

right now

and we've talked about it

a million times

but how non-playoff

drivers can really affect

the playoffs

and who gets in

and who is out

for the next round

in the NASCAR playoffs

because if SVG wins

then that's a whole

lot of points

going to someone

who is not able to use them

in the playoffs scenario

exactly

yeah

yeah so it's

it's just the whole

and I'm very interested

in during the off season

I think we're going to have

a lot to talk about

a lot of content

to talk about

because there's

Dale Earnhardt Jr.

on his podcast

is getting increasingly

vocal

about changing the

the point structure

we've had

you know

people like us

talking about it

for ages

and then

a lot of people

just

you know colloquially

in in terms of talking

to friends

and talking to other people

who watch it

they've been clamoring

for change as well

so I do think

I don't think

playoffs are going to go away

I'm not sure

NASCAR is ready

to walk away from that

but I think there will be

a change

coming up

for the 2026 year

that's my guess

and something

I think if there is a non-playoff

driver

winning

and scooping up all the points

this weekend

that might be another

nail in the coffin

for the current format

of the playoffs at least

yeah so I

I know that I've

probably been

I don't want to say pro-playoffs

but

less empty playoffs

than you have been

I'm okay at the playoff format

although I wouldn't mind

maybe some tweaks

to make it a little more fair

I do remember growing up with the old

you know just the most points

in the season

when it's a championship

and it's really straight forward

and simple

and you don't even have to win

that many races

to get a championship

but

the playoff format

I know it's a little confusing

but it really doesn't have to be

I think we make it more confusing

than it is

or at least I do

not being able to do

basic math

but you know it really is

just three rounds of

four drivers

and then

one round of four

but it is interesting

how in this sport

you know a driver

is not part of the playoffs

can affect the playoff

so

I'm curious as to any tweaks

but right now

I'm just really looking forward to

the roval

and

really looking forward to seeing how

someone like Shane van

Gisburg

and who is so dominant

on these road courses

will affect the rest of the playoff field

I agree

and I think

and

just with some of the other cars

that are

there

you know

because you think

I mean

Pupo Wallace

while he's

how many points

out did you say

was he was

48 I think

let me double check that

26

well he's 26

I'm thinking

26

so he's 48 yeah

oh he could race his way in

even if he does

yeah he did have a

really good day

and have to have some help

but yes

I have to have some help

with some other people

having bad days

but

I mean let's not

forget

I mean he won the Brickyard 400

which is a

hard hard thing to do

and he

in some measures

in by raw numbers

he might not have

been having

the best year

I think he doesn't have as many

I think he's got more DNFs

he's not had a great year now

right

but you know by

by some measures

he's been

really really fast

and just

as a driver

in terms of

if it like

his mentality

and

Charles as well

over there

like I mean

something has changed

you know

and making the 23 car

something that

most drivers

are going to have to

contend with

every single week

so

I think that

you know

I do think

right

I do think that

that

the 2311

structure

the 2311

house itself

you know what I mean

both of those teams

are certainly very very strong

and I would be very surprised

if both of them

don't make the next round

of playoffs

right now

they're both below the cut line

but I'd be

I'd be

very surprised if someone

if

I'd be very surprised

if both of those cars

don't make the next round

and if they

fail to make the next round

because a non-playoff

driver scoops up

a bunch of points

I think that'll be another vote

for

making some changes

in the off season

yeah yeah

changes in the off season so

it gives us something to talk about

you know and

Chase showing up

just blowing in from out of

pretty much out of nowhere

almost outside the top 10

to winning the race

within a couple of laps

and that's a good thing

for the sport too

because he's a very popular driver

and seeing him run

near the front

that's good for the sport

there's always going to be haters

out there saying

oh yeah

you know

he's new golden boy

whatever he's a new

Dale Earnhardt Jr

because his dad also ran

you know what I mean

right the car

back in the day

but I think seeing the number nine

run up front is a great thing

and seeing him right now

so I mean technically given

how the points do shake out

he's you know

leading the standings

and I think that's a good thing

for the sport

you see other cars

you talk about Kyle Larson

and probably gonna have a good day

I agree with you

I think he's gonna have a really

good day

because he's a wheel man

and he can drive anything

I'll compare him to

you talk about

another series

F1 Max Verstappen

who was very dominant over there

not quite so much this year

but he raced

they had an off week

and he raced a completely different

type of car

on a completely different type of course

and dominated

and won

and Kyle Larson can do the same thing

I think you're right

in speculating that

he's gonna have a good weekend

whether he wins or not

but I think he's gonna have a good

weekend

coming up at the Roval as well

yeah

and I think we'll go ahead

and end this segment on this note

I'm also watching

Logano

and

I hit it in front of me

there we go

Chase Briscoe

good call

because

if you look at

I didn't notice this until I really

kind of reread the standings

the top six guys

are all plus 40 or more

and again

Ellie and Blaney have won

so they're walking to round two

or round three I should say

so

Briscoe and Logano

are the ones without a lot of room

for air

being only plus 13 for Logano

and only 21

above the cut line for Briscoe

so

you know

Byron, Bell

even Hamlin

they even Larson

they have bad days

they're probably fine

Logano

Rex early

doesn't finish well

Briscoe, Rex really doesn't finish well

that could

and again

I don't have the exact point structure

for the Roval race in front of me

but

if those guys don't do well

they don't finish in the top

10 or 15

they might not be moving on

so I think they're gonna have to

really kind of

mine their Ps and Qs

and just kind of have a strong day

and a very smart day as well

you're right

yeah

and with that Matthew

unless you have anything else

you want to add preview in Kansas this week

I think you should go ahead and wrap it up

nope nothing else to add

just looking forward to the Roval

me too

our final quote on quote road course

of the season

not a true road course really

in my opinion more of a

place where you can turn right

on flat grass

but it's still

it still is turning right

which I do like to see NASCAR

cup cars do more often than that

I'm an advocate of having

I still think ovals are the bread and butter

and don't ever want to go away from that

but I am an advocate of having

between six and eight

road course races a year

so maybe even 10 out of the 30s

out of the 36 they do

so anyway with that

we will go ahead and wrap this week's

NASCAR segment here in Truth About Cars podcast

thank you Matthew

thank you

that's all for this week's Truth About Cars podcast

I am Tim Healy

I'm managing editor

and you can find us wherever you're podcast

you can also find us online at

ttac.com

or truth about cars

allspulledout.com

we thank Carl Broward from iccars.com

along with Matthew Guy for their time

and we thank Matt Poskey for editing

most of all

we thank you for listening

we'll see you next time

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