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When should an F1 driver retire? - The Undercut with Damon Hill and Mark Hughes
When should an F1 driver retire? - The Undercut with Damon Hill and Mark Hughes
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About this episode
Damon Hill and Mark Hughes dive deep into the complex decision of when an F1 driver should retire, focusing on Lewis Hamilton's recent performances and mindset. They discuss the challenges drivers face as they age, the impact of confidence on performance, and the psychological struggles that can arise when results don't meet expectations. The conversation also touches on notable retirements in F1 history, contrasting the motivations of drivers like Hamilton and Alonso, and the emotional toll of staying competitive in a sport that demands peak performance.
Cars:
Jeep Gladiator
When should an F1 driver retire? It has been a big topic of late, with F1's two most experienced competitors, Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso, struggling with unwieldy and uncompetitive machinery as they bid to recapture former glory.
When is the right time for them to hang up their helmets? That's the subject debated by 1996 F1 world champion Damon Hill and renowned F1 journalist Mark Hughes in the latest episode of The Undercut, the podcast where we give the duo a thought-provoking starting topic and then see where the conversation takes them...
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Technical
Too Afraid to Ask
Concept
South African Grand Prix
"...after breaking his legs over the previous season. So he made an amazing comeback and got a point in agony with the Rob Walker Lotus in 1970."
The South African Grand Prix is a car race that is part of the Formula One series. It has a long history and is known for being a tough race for drivers.
The South African Grand Prix is a Formula One race that has been held at various times since the 1930s. It was part of the Formula One World Championship from 1967 to 1985, and it is known for its challenging circuit and historical significance in the sport.
Brand
Brabham
"...did another couple of seats with Brabham, I think it was. And then I think Bernie turned up and went, what's he doing here?"
Brabham is a car brand that used to compete in Formula One racing. It was started by a famous driver and is known for its clever car designs.
Brabham is a former Formula One team founded by Australian driver Jack Brabham. The team was known for its innovative designs and competitive performance during its active years in the 1960s and 1970s.
Car
Jeep Gladiator
"And I think, yeah, I agree, how can you be a gladiator whilst talking through your mental health and you..."
The Jeep Gladiator is a type of truck that can go off-road, meaning it can drive on rough and uneven surfaces like dirt and rocks. It's special because it has a truck bed for carrying things, but it also has the features of a Jeep, making it fun to drive in different environments.
The Jeep Gladiator is a mid-size pickup truck that combines the rugged off-road capabilities of the Jeep brand with the practicality of a truck bed. Introduced in 2019, it has gained attention for its unique design and versatility, appealing to both adventure seekers and those needing a functional vehicle. Its significance often comes from its ability to tackle tough terrains while offering everyday usability.
Term
groove tires
"because we bought in these groove tires. And I drove such a fantastic car in the FW18, the Williams car, was so beautifully balanced for me. I just loved it."
Groove tires are special tires with patterns on them that help cars grip the road better, especially when it's wet. They help prevent slipping by moving water away from where the tire touches the ground.
Groove tires, also known as grooved tires, are tires that have tread patterns designed to improve grip on wet surfaces by channeling water away from the contact patch. They are commonly used in motorsports to enhance performance and handling.
Car
Williams FW18
"And I drove such a fantastic car in the FW18, the Williams car, was so beautifully balanced for me. I just loved it."
The Williams FW18 is a race car used in Formula One racing by the Williams team. It was known for being very well-designed and easy to handle, making it a favorite among drivers.
The Williams FW18 is a Formula One car that was raced by the Williams team during the 1996 season. It is known for its excellent balance and performance, contributing to the team's success during that era.
Car
Jordan
"the arrows wasn't grooved, the following year was grooved. Jordan, the first Jordan. And hated them."
Jordan was a Formula One racing team that had bright yellow cars and competed in races from the early 1990s until the mid-2000s. They were known for being a fun and competitive team.
Jordan Grand Prix was a Formula One team that competed from 1991 to 2005. The team was known for its distinctive yellow cars and for being a competitive entry in the sport during its active years.
Concept
Indy 500
"he'll be like Mary Andretti, he'll be racing Indy 500 when he's 60 or something."
The Indy 500 is a famous car race held every year in Indianapolis. It's known for being very challenging and is part of a series of races called IndyCar.
The Indy 500, officially known as the Indianapolis 500, is one of the oldest and most prestigious automobile races in the world. It takes place annually at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and features open-wheel cars racing over 500 miles.
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And we're back with a new season of Am I Doing It Wrong,
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But who isn't?
That's why each week we're talking about the topics that we could all use a little helping hand with,
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We'll be talking to experts in their fields who are definitely doing things right,
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You're listening to the Undercut with Damon Hill and Mark Hughes.
I guess, Damon, one of the big questions looking at the season ahead,
aside from all the cars and all the questions around power units, things like that,
is what we're going to see from Lewis Hamilton because obviously the doubts are there
from his own performances, which he's referenced himself, but not just the performances, was it?
It was the demeanor.
It was the comments on several occasions were useless.
What do you think's going on there?
And it sort of begs the question of how do you know when it's time to start
thinking about pulling out or when do you dig down and come up with a recovery?
How do you know what are things going on?
I think that's a very difficult question to answer for a sports person when they know.
I mean, if you're in a football team, I suppose someone would say, OK, you're not in the team anymore.
But to some degree, with a driver, you've got a contract.
You could carry on from a two-year contract.
You could stick it out.
But there must come a time with every driver.
They've got to stop.
And how you judge that is very difficult.
You either let yourself be pushed or you call it exactly the right time.
As Sir Jackie Stewart did famously after 99 races and retired at the top, or Nico Rosberg did.
But to leave the table with your winnings,
it's so tempting to to keep trying and do one more.
But this is, I mean, you mentioned at the start there about
the teams and the cars and everything.
There's fascination.
But this is the bit of sport, every sport, but particularly, I think our sport.
Maybe 10 is something where it involves just individuals.
When I mean, in golf, you can keep playing and you just literally just slide down the things
and you carry them and then you go into the seniors and you fade away.
But you're still there.
People can come and see you with our sport.
With tennis, you're just going to get knocked out, bang.
Our sport, you can kind of drag it out and people will ask,
Well, is it the car that's keeping you aloft?
Yeah.
Of course, the teammate is the is the barometer, the yardstick.
But, you know, this is where this is where it gets interesting,
because with someone like Nicky Louder, when he was up against Alan Prost
and Alan Prost turned up and he was a second quicker or something.
He suddenly blew his mind.
Nicky goes, where did this guy come from?
And so he adopted a different tactic.
He realized he couldn't beat him on sheer pace.
So he could concentrate on the race setup, which is what he did.
And he beat Alan Prost famously by half a point.
So it's normal over if you if you're getting slower on the lap on the sheer one lap pace.
Yeah, I think because the car muddies the water.
I think that's what allows that little bit of belief that inside.
You're arguing with yourself, I guess, aren't you?
Is this me?
Is it is it the particular situation with the car?
And Lewis is by going to Ferrari and getting in a car that behaved very differently
from those he'd been driving before, particularly in terms of how much
it uses engine brake and to get the rotation in the turn, things like that.
And having an incredibly fast guy there already, very familiar with that car.
I think there's even more muddying of the water going on there,
probably for Lewis as well.
Certainly from the outside, you're thinking, well, OK, if he adapts and, you know,
we get a clean sheet of new regulations, how's it going to look?
But I think at 40, 41, obviously, the temptation is to think,
now this is probably what we're seeing is probably real.
It's probably a gradual diminution of sheer performance.
And I think Lewis, probably more than most drivers, is probably a bit
susceptible to the whole the confidence thing, because he, at his peak.
I was talking to Jock Clear about this, and he was he was making the
contrast between Michael Schumacher and Lewis, and he'd worked with both.
And he said, Lewis always operated.
This was peak Lewis, I must say.
He always operated from a position of, well, I'm the fastest guy.
So if the time is not reflecting that, you need to find out what's wrong,
because it's not me.
Where he said, Michael, it was different.
Michael was, I need to get everything possible onside against me
because maybe make a hacking and drive a car faster than I can.
So I can't allow him to beat me.
So I've got to get everything together.
So I think that confidence probably helps you when everything's going well.
Either you that certainty that you can do this better than anybody else.
And I think he had that and it does power performance.
I think you read in your book, when you were talking about when you first
won a bygress in your club, and suddenly you felt, oh, I can do this.
And then you can do it again and again on a different track.
And that brings a poverty performance.
And I think in the extreme case, like somebody like Lewis, it does.
It brings something to the table in terms of lap time.
But equally, I think if you begin to lose that, it will go down very fast
because it's all it's everything else is piling in on it.
I mean, you could argue that his time at Mercedes
was makes it makes him at a disadvantage.
I mean, certainly when it goes to changing to a team like Ferrari.
I mean, I think there was so much that the learning curve for Lewis
at this late stage of your career was was massive to go to a new team
where somebody, like you say, like Charles Leclerc, who's frighteningly quick.
Perhaps not as experienced a racer as as Lewis, but but not far off.
And he knows the team, he knows the language.
Lewis has got so much to learn and he had so much on his plate.
Otherwise, in terms of promotion and so forth, you're right.
It's very difficult to judge whether it is Lewis on the
on a steep downward decline, bearing in mind that he had
three years after four years after 21, the defeat of Abu Dhabi
where he had a nightmare, you know, the results when the car was awful.
He was so he was plugging along, having been used to winning.
And whether it was easy winning or not,
that's that some people have suggested that he didn't have enough of competition.
And when he did have competition in Nico Rosberg, it was a close call.
I mean, Jensen gave him a run for his money at McLaren.
But, you know, I don't think anybody seriously can say that Lewis is not
one of the most stunningly gifted drivers of the last
fifth family season, 15, whatever.
But that goes over time, that magic bit disappears.
And the question is whether or not he can
regroup and whether or not a winning car, which is what I think you're saying,
is if the winning car just regenerates that fizz that you need to build up
the pressure to to suddenly when you get an opportunity to be backed
your old winning ways, that is the question we don't know.
And we won't know that until they get a competitive car.
If they get a competitive car, is that enough for motivation?
Is that enough to keep it going?
I think winning is a huge motivation when you're used to winning a lot.
That's what you do, you know, and just scoring points.
I mean, Alonso has done he knows he's made his bed and he has to line it.
And his career is can be criticized for maybe overreach
in terms of his political ambitions and attempts to to run teams
when he was there.
And that might have affected his his chances.
And so he didn't get championships that he might have done
if he'd been a little bit more amenable.
But anyway, he's there, he's got this break
and he hasn't got much competition from Lancelot, let's be honest.
You know, so he's able to be the man within that team.
And he's he's kept motivated and there's no doubt he puts the work in.
With Lewis, you get the sense that the ambition goes
when the results don't come in, he has had some bad luck.
So on top of that, he's had uncompetitive car,
bit of bad luck, a lot of penalties that were unexpected, let's say.
And I can I can imagine I can understand him feeling a little bit like a victim.
But you can't afford to be if you're going to be an eight times world champion,
you can't afford to project that.
You know, people are looking for something that's uplifting with you
compared to Fernando, Fernando gives the team a lift by sheer effort.
The sheer time he puts in the sheer, at least that's what it looks like
from the outside, but he looks like someone that they can rely on
when Lewis loses his motivation or his belief in himself and expresses it.
I think the team start to wonder.
Yeah.
And that has a multiplier effect.
Exactly, that starts the spiral going the other way.
Yeah.
So you can you're not helping yourself to extend your career.
So I mean, if you to compare people like Nigel,
Nigel still has utter self-belief
and he was competitive well into his forties in IndyCar as well.
Yeah, yeah.
When we talk about how much is the driver and how much is the car,
you can never decouple it.
That's the thing about Formula One and about the sport in general.
It's it's the combination.
It's always the combination and I think
some drivers accept that more readily than others.
And I don't think Lewis has ever fundamentally accepted that.
He's always assumed that he is the dominant part of the reason
when he was being successful, even though he would obviously acknowledge
that the car was very competitive.
Whereas somebody like Sebastian, and I even heard it sometimes from Michael
when it was suggested that they're winning because they're in the fastest car,
Seb quite often used to just smile and say, yeah, it is.
And that's why I'm going to beat you.
Yeah.
And he wasn't bothered.
No.
And he would you turn the you turn it around and use it as a as a as a weapon.
Yeah.
Wouldn't you like to be in the same car?
That'd be great because I can beat you on an in an even.
I believe I can beat you with equal equipment, but I've read even better equipment.
So good luck.
Yeah. Yeah.
And to imagine somebody like
Fernando, if he was unhappy with his own performance saying,
oh, I'm useless, I need to think about another driver.
It's it's unthinkable.
You that's just not how he is wired up.
And Lewis is very, very emotionally triggered, I think,
in situations like this.
So I'm not sure I can see a route out of it because
if by some good fortune, the Ferrari is a mega car next year
and he's in position to win races.
Is he going to be able to compete with the guy in the other car,
which is just as quick as he's got.
And is he going to be able to rewrite the script in his head,
which still allows him that level of belief in himself
that he had. I don't know where that goes.
Basically, we're asking whether or not Fernando and Lewis, either or,
will be this will be the last season because we we're sitting here now.
We kind of go the all of the the balance,
the scales are weighing up towards them.
This has got to be the last year.
And you know, unless suddenly for I produced a blinding car
or Adrian knew he has waved his magic wand at Aston Martin
and Fernandez got a clear run at the championship.
I mean, but either way, one of them is going to go
because they can't both win.
But I think this is if if the motivation goes,
if Lewis has another year like he's been having like last year
or the year before, I don't see him seeing the end of the year out
because I just think he's the joy of everything has gone out of it.
You know, you can't simply be.
He doesn't need to sit in a car and deliver points for Ferrari
when if Chelsea Clays just, you know, winning or getting more than him.
He doesn't need to be there. Yeah.
How do you pull those performance out of yourself?
I guess when you when you've lost that
it automatically being at that high pitch.
And I think sometimes a driver doesn't even realise
that they're there, they just do it.
And then suddenly they're not doing it.
Yeah. And I think when we we have to mention Max, of course, he's 28.
He's not even come into the magic window is his 28.
I think it's 28 to 33, something like that.
Well, you've got in his case now, seasons of experience,
a huge amount of experience.
Plus, he's still got the reactions and the youth and the fitness and the rest of it.
He hasn't even used that bit yet.
So, you know, he's in that zone where he can think things and it happens.
Yeah. And and I and I do remember driving unconsciously like that.
So you go out and you do something, there's the time.
You didn't have to think about how it happened.
And then as I got towards the end of my career,
I'd be going, why isn't it happening?
Why is that magic thing not happening?
And you'd be frustrated because you just feel detached from
the the instinctive part of it.
You know, you can't understand why you can't just be fast and things.
And and then little mistakes start coming in and you get irritated
because you're not getting the satisfaction from driving that you used to get as well.
Now, I think that that it's difficult to disentangle that
from feeling demotivated that you're no longer in a winning position.
You know, I'm fighting for what?
10th. And yeah, 10th is not enough to get out of bed for.
Yeah. Yeah. When you're used to winning races.
It sounds a terrible thing.
If you if you're a young driver and they and you heard them say that.
They're either going to be a great racing driver
or you'd say, I wouldn't have that attitude if I were you.
We need every point we can get and you're here to help us score.
Yeah. Every little point counts.
But yeah, I think that when you've done the career,
when you've had a run at the front, it's very difficult to get too excited about.
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Hey, it's Raj.
And Noah.
And we're back with a new season of Am I Doing It Wrong,
the show that explores the all too human anxieties we have
about trying to get our lives right.
Because we're still doing a lot of stuff wrong.
But who isn't?
That's why each week we're talking about the topics
that we could all use a little helping hand with,
whether it's making new friends as an adult, managing our emotions or even dreaming.
We'll be talking to experts in their fields who are definitely doing things right.
So the rest of us can be a bit wiser and a lot better equipped to handle
whatever life throws at us.
Subscribe now and listen to new episodes of Am I Doing It Wrong
trapping every Thursday starting January 1st, wherever you get your podcasts.
And for the first time ever, we're going to have full video episodes on YouTube
because as long as there are things to get wrong,
we're going to be right here to help you do them better.
So how was it for you?
Because you went from winning championships to less competitive cars,
but you were still probably nearly one in hungry with the arrows.
You did win with the Jordan Spa.
So you were still delivering performances.
When were you aware that it might not be there?
I had it always in the back of my mind that
you've got to be finished by the time you're 40.
Because I've seen 40 year old racing drivers and they always thought I looked like
and my dad, particularly, he had his accident when he and he was
well, in 69, I think it was.
And then he came back and drove.
People didn't want to put him in a car because he damaged his legs.
They weren't sure they could drive.
He came back and got a.
A point in South African Grand Prix after breaking his legs over the
over the previous season.
So he made an amazing comeback and got a point
in agony with the Rob Walker Lotus in 1970.
And then he kind of did another couple of seats with Brabham, I think it was.
And then I think Bernie turned up and went, what's he doing here?
Sort of thing.
And then he went off and started his own team and tried running a team and driving.
And it was people were saying, what's he doing?
He's down the back.
He shouldn't be doing that.
They didn't want to see him down the back.
But his attitude was, I don't care about them.
I want to do it.
And it's my team, my car.
But he had to accept that eventually he was being a roadblock
to the talent that was coming up and the talent that he had in the team
was going to be Tony Blyse, who sadly was in the plane crash when he died.
So but that he but he did extend it way beyond where it was.
So that colored your thing.
And that had definitely in the back of your mind to be the guy that everyone was
saying he's too old, he said, you know, you don't want to be the bloke
who's hogging up everyone and taking up space.
I mean, I remember going to one of the in 18 in, sorry, 99.
I remember going for the photo at the start of the season
where they line you all up in Melbourne and you have your and I'm
standing next to guys who are 20 years younger than me.
And I remember thinking to myself, when I go to a party
where people are 20 years younger than me, you know, I'd feel awkward.
And that was that was sort of the message.
And in any case, for some reason, I couldn't perform at all in in 89.
And 99.
I said, this just happens to get all the decades just mean nothing.
Anyway, so, yeah, so I couldn't get the performances out of myself,
even though I had found form in 98 and won my last race.
Yeah, but for some reason, the magic completely disappeared.
And then I just thought, oh, I'm like, I want to go home.
I've had enough.
And then it became a very nasty experience with lawyers and stuff.
So but it that, you know, when they say it starts to go slowly
and then it goes quickly, it went quickly.
Yeah, yeah. And it was very obvious to me. OK, that's it.
That's that's the line. I'm out of here.
So it sounds like there's a physical and the mental side.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Yeah. But I think the mental response to the result.
So if you can produce the result, if you're encouraged to go on.
And I heard Seb saying something to that effect that he was struggling
to get out of bed to go on another flight and go to another hotel.
And but then when he got there, he won the race and he was remotivated.
And so the results is what I'm saying is that with Lewis,
let's say the Ferrari is dynamite, maybe he'll close the gap on on Charles.
You know, maybe it's that that's what he needs.
That is the energy that will reignite that fire.
Because I keep coming back to Nigel,
who hadn't won a championship till he was later.
Was it was he forty nine when he won with thirty nine?
Yeah, when he started thirty nine when he won, yeah.
And then he went on to Indy, sort of followed through
and he just won that as well and everything. Yeah.
And I know that Lewis is motivated by, you know,
people, athletes like Tom Brady and Lindsey Vaughn, who recently won
the oldest girl women to have won a World Cup downhill.
And forty after coming back with a new knee.
Yeah. And that just happened this winter.
So he knows he's good friends with him.
You know, I think he's looking at those people as inspiration.
So I think he doesn't want.
He wasn't one at the side down, really. So.
Yeah, I think there is this thing in
Lewis's mind that this still I rise thing.
And I think he has this dream of how fantastic it would be
if he came back like Muhammad Ali
and after he'd been written off by everyone.
Reaching the glory again. Yeah.
And I think that is probably a lot of what's kept him
in the car since losing Abu Dhabi twenty one.
But it's so difficult to see the route through to that.
And I think, you know, when you you mention Mansell,
I think Mansell like Alonso is just one of those people
that's so headstrong, it's difficult to imagine them
having those thoughts of this guy is 20 years younger than me.
I'm out. Those thoughts wouldn't be in their head.
No, but they would be in Lewis's.
They would be in Lewis's.
They just they're something about that extreme personality
of Mansell and Alonso up to prime examples.
So some of the emotional punishment has come from outside.
But a lot of it with Lewis, you feel come from within.
So he does it to himself.
And I can understand that.
I think that, you know, there was a survey done
about champions, what they what they had
is some sort of psychological assessment of a few years back.
And they found that a lot of the best drivers had doubts
like you were saying about Michael Schumacher.
He he had.
Insecurities about his.
His ability, so it's a it's a curious thing
that some people also approach things as if there's no doubt.
There is no they can you can have the two extremes.
I mean, I think the thing about the the people who doubt
and the self analytical is they don't reveal it.
I think that they understand that you can't reveal that
to the outside world, even if you're thinking it
and you're wrestling with it yourself.
You certainly don't announce it
because that is too much encouragement to your competitors.
You will get you will be inviting more of the same,
you know, more criticism.
You stop thinking of Landon Norris when you talk about that.
Exactly. Yeah.
And he stopped doing it.
He stopped doing it halfway through the season.
And he was more cautious about things he said.
And I think that you have to understand.
Well, I think it's part of the equation of a racing driver is.
I mean, we haven't had that Muhammad Ali driver.
I'm trying to think of a Muhammad Ali driver who has come in and gone.
I'm going to beat everyone.
I'm the greatest who we had.
I mean, Nigel Manson's comes the closest, I think.
Don't you? Yeah, absolutely.
Maybe Ayrton, I don't know.
But as far as that sheer self belief
and announcing it to the world, there's nobody faster than me.
Yeah, I'm writing poems about it before.
Did he? Nigel wrote poems?
No. No, OK.
Ali did. That's just your.
Ali wrote poems about himself.
Yes, of course.
So he's an exception in every regard, isn't he?
I mean, as a personality, he was incredible.
But but it worked.
You know, the guy's beaten before he'd even got in the ring,
the opponent, because everyone loves that guy.
So you want you want to see him win.
And I think that that's Nigel, I think, had that utter.
Maybe Fangio Fangio said famously that
he always thought he was better than everyone else,
but he always thought he could be better.
So I mean, and also Nicky Louder,
his approach when he borrowed money to go racing
was that the logic went like this.
If you're going to go racing, you have to believe you can win.
Stands to reason, right?
You're going to go, oh, I'm going to go racing, but I'm not going to win.
No, I mean, no one's going to do that.
Right. So I'm just racing.
When I'm like, are you after you?
Oh, I'm not racing.
You're you're you're racing me, but I'm not racing.
Anyway, so it's his logic when like this,
I'm going to go racing and therefore I'm going to win.
Therefore, it's OK to borrow the money because I will win
and I'll pay the money back.
Can't beat that logic, you know.
But so even someone like that, you know, he
is the mindset is is crucial.
But I think some people don't need to be taught it.
They I mean, Max is I mean, whether he's been taught it
through his dad, I don't know.
But he certainly is so self-assured
without being arrogant about it.
But he is self-assured.
So I'm thinking of the tennis player Federer
who was asked after he won
the to get through to the final of the Australian Open.
And we're all watching it because Andy Murray's
in the semi-final, he got through to the final.
And so they asked him, what about Andy tomorrow?
And he said, well, he said,
it's going to be hard for him because he's up against me.
But he did it in a really charming, completely honest way.
And everyone understood. Yeah.
Yeah, you know, he's playing me and, you know, good luck.
But he's going to be hard.
And I asked I asked another brilliant reply
I got from France Clammer
once I met him a golf thing and we're having breakfast
and anyone who doesn't know France Clammer is look him up.
Is the greatest.
He's a legend. Fantastic. Fantastic.
And he's a character.
And so I was talking to him about English skiers, British skiers,
what chance we got.
And he said, he said, I don't know.
He said, it's the air is very thin up there.
Yeah.
And I thought that was so insightful
because even for him, what he's saying is
that he understood what it was to be at the extreme edges
of what is possible.
And he's got all the advantages of being an Austrian
and all the ski equipment, all the rest of it.
So what is what is the defining?
You know, they say sport shows character.
It doesn't build character.
But I don't think that's completely true.
I think you can definitely learn and
adapt your approach, one's approach.
Would a driver, if you were got a new driver coming in,
let's say Oli Berman, for example,
who seems self assured, confident,
but he's also analytical and critical of himself.
But let's say he go to him and say, listen,
never criticise yourself and always say, I'm the best.
You know, just say, I can be anybody
and see where it goes.
I mean, I'm not going to do that to him.
And I don't advise him to do that
because it is too much a responsibility to.
But it would be interesting.
But it'd be interesting, you know,
because some people have that approach and it works for them.
And whether or not that has a feedback effect on your confidence.
I think it's interesting.
I think you I think it almost certainly does.
I think it can't it can't hurt.
I think that I think saying to yourself,
I'm never wrong is different.
But if I think if you think saying to yourself,
I can and I can and I mean, I.
Having gone through that mental kind of experiment there,
I have to say, I always thought I could beat people
no matter who they were.
I took the view that there will be opportunities.
If I'm given a chance, I think that I can beat anyone.
Just give me the chance.
And that that was always there.
And I don't I never got to find out if I could have beaten it
and said I probably couldn't, but I'd have a go.
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Hey, it's Raj.
And Noah.
And we're back with a new season of Am I Doing It Wrong?
The show that explores all two human anxieties
we have about trying to get our lives right.
Because we're still doing a lot of stuff wrong.
But who isn't?
That's why each week we're talking about the topics
that we could all use a little helping hand with.
Whether it's making new friends as an adult,
managing our emotions, or even dreaming.
We'll be talking to experts in their fields
who are definitely doing things right.
So the rest of us can be a bit wiser
and a lot better equipped to handle
whatever life throws at us.
Subscribe now and listen to new episodes
of Am I Doing It Wrong?
Trapping every Thursday starting January 1st,
wherever you get your podcasts.
And for the first time ever,
we're gonna have full video episodes on YouTube.
Because as long as there are things to get wrong,
we're gonna be right here to help you do them better.
Love y'all.
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You came, you got your good car,
like almost immediately.
So you didn't have the experience of Alain Prost.
So when you looked at his telemetry,
did you say, I can't do that,
but I probably can work out how to do it?
Or did that, did it not arise like that?
Will you say I, well, didn't, did he, did he,
was there any point at which you thought,
well, I can't do that, what he's just done in that corner?
Or was it always a case of,
oh, I will be able to do that,
I've just got to work out how I was doing it.
With Alain, it was always,
I could see where he was getting advantage.
One of the big giveaways for drive for drivers
was the speed graph, you know, the traces
that you can analyze
and you can see where people are doing
something unusual.
The one with, I remember,
in Suzuka, Patrick Hed showing me how much faster
Nigel was through 130R.
And anyway, I'd out-qualified Nigel,
I remember thinking, yeah, but what's the point of that?
If it's, the risk is so high at that corner
and the gain was very little.
Whereas with Alain Prost,
the gain was always in the slow corners.
And he'd do this little, you know, little hop,
there'd be a little hop, as the graph came down,
there'd be a little kind of step and I'm like,
that's interesting, what's that?
So I could analyze what he was up to.
What was it?
I think it was just coming off,
he's coming off the brakes as he turns in.
Yeah.
And then there's kind of re-application of the brakes,
so maybe he was just,
it wasn't as easy as it is now
to determine exactly what the first input was.
But anyway, you're right,
I could measure myself against,
given that the equipment we had,
but I could measure myself against Alain and I,
but he was the first,
I tested it when Nigel had been testing and so,
but he'd go out in the car and then I'd go in.
And so the track changes,
you can't really be sure,
and car changes and they put different fuel loads and so,
but in a purely straight competition,
I realized with Alain how I compared.
And I knew I had more to find and he was,
I always thought he was one of the masters of driving,
along with Jackie Stewart and Jim Clark.
He was one of the people who put in the least effort,
was the most efficient and it was sublime.
You couldn't really see what he was up to,
but we're really talking about driving technique here
when actually,
I mean he stopped when he won the championship,
but he'd got to his four championships,
one less than Fangio,
one more than Ayrton,
job done.
I think there is an element of being sated,
when is a driver sated?
And I remember being astonished when Michael kept on winning
once he got past the Fangio total.
He kept on going and wanted to do,
we haven't really talked about him
because he stopped against his will
and I think that annoyed him, irritated him
and that's why he decided to do his comeback.
And what he found out when he came back was,
it was very different.
It was different.
Plus he injured himself on the motorbike as well.
Yeah, that didn't help.
Yeah.
I think Michael's an interesting one
because he presented to the world that I'm unbeatable,
but he did have doubts.
And he talked to people that worked with him
and I think Seb talked about it once.
He said he looked upon Michael as a guide in light
sort of thing and Seb had doubts
and was talking about them to Michael
and said, we all have them.
He said, well, you have them.
He said, yeah, of course I do.
So it's...
But he did, Michael, very obviously,
never alluded to that.
He would never show.
The moment he went in the paddock,
there was this real face.
Yeah, yeah.
And no one saw a weakness there.
Yeah, yeah.
And I remember before on the eve of his final race
of his second career,
he's come back with us for studies,
I did an interview with him.
We went from Abu Dhabi to a function he was going to.
It's about half an hour's drive
and in the back of a limo and we just did it there.
And instead of just me asking him questions,
I'd got a bunch of people
who'd either competed against him or worked with him,
including you, to say,
what would you like me to ask Michael?
Is there something that...
And DC referenced that they're collision and spa.
And...
This is David Coulthard.
David Coulthard.
Yeah, sorry, yes.
We'll assume everybody knows it's David.
And he'd said that he had a discussion
about it the following day
after everything had calmed down
and Michael was no longer trying to pull his head off.
And he'd said that Michael just absolutely refused
to see his point.
And he'd said, I'd said to him at the time,
Michael, we're all wrong sometimes.
He must realize that sometimes we're just...
Do you never feel like you've been wrong about anything?
And he said, no.
And he said, not really warm me up.
And I still to this day don't know
if he really believes he's never been wrong
or if he was using that to wind me up.
I don't think he's using it to wind him up.
So he said, could you ask him that?
And so I asked Michael that.
And Michael just had a little writhe smile.
And he said, if I say no, I've never been wrong.
So it's going to wind him up again, isn't it?
Yeah, I suppose I've never been wrong.
Yeah.
I think you said, I think your question was,
ask him if there's a God.
And he just said, yes.
He says, yeah, that's all to now.
It's me.
I am the God.
But yeah, I think he was a consummate competitor.
He knew what to do in all situations.
But I do think that, I mean, I've heard Ross Braun say this,
that he sometimes wouldn't accept that he was perhaps wrong
in that particular situation.
So again, this comes back to this self-belief thing.
I think in some ways admitting, you have to find a way.
You have to find a way to, like the fangirl quote, I think.
So you have to think, I want to be better.
And if you're perfect, you can't be better.
So there has to be something you can work on.
So you have to admit that there is something
that is not fully formed yet,
that might help if you were able
to develop that part of yourself.
But anyway, I do think that this exposing yourself
and this sort of public outing of your feelings,
obviously it's something which has entered society
over the last, whatever, 10, whatever, how many years it is,
where it's been good to talk about emotions
and people being encouraged about that.
But that's fine if you do it in the right environment.
And I think too much in the public arena,
lays yourself open to too much misunderstanding, let's say.
You're going into gladiatorial battle,
even though it's much more sophisticated than it used to be.
And I think, yeah, I agree,
how can you be a gladiator whilst talking through your mental
health and your doubts at the same time?
That's got to be in a different compartment.
Yeah, I think so.
I definitely think so.
I think it has to be.
It's not what people turn on for.
Anyway, people turn on to see.
I mean, disappointment is part of sport.
Massive disappointment is the test.
How do you cope?
How do we come back?
How do as human beings, can we cope
when things have all gone horribly wrong?
We want to see people transcending that.
And little blips, little moments where people say,
do you know what, I just want to go home.
I've had enough.
That's acceptable on occasions,
but you want to see them back again.
Yeah, it would be a fantastic story.
It would be a fantastic narrative
if Lewis had a fantastic season next year.
And he did, whether he won his eighth title or not,
but he would, multiple races,
or equally if Fernando Alonso won more races
and challenged for the championship.
Well, I mean, the rejoicing in heaven and earth
over Nico Halkenberg's podium.
Yeah.
Yes.
You know, it's all safe.
It's a great story.
We love it.
So once you've done that.
Yeah.
Time to stop.
Surely it's then time to stop?
Definitely.
Definitely.
But this is it, you know, did they miss the boat?
Did they miss a little window of opportunity?
Should I have stopped when I won the championship?
You think you should?
No, because I loved trying to win in an arrows
and winning in Spa was part of the story for me.
I probably should have stopped after that year,
but I thought I'd have one more go.
But I think that Nico's stopping showed enormous amount
of understanding of things.
I think that it was an insightful, a brave move
to walk away and say, I'm done.
I know that's the best I can do.
Leave it, leave it there.
That is my very best.
Yeah.
And also I didn't enjoy it.
And also it wasn't much fun.
Yeah, it was like, it crushed me.
And then whether I can pull my socks up again to do that.
I think that's what people don't get, is that,
yes, he beat Lewis Hamilton,
but it took everything out of him.
And he hadn't got anything left.
He decided that was work.
That's an incredible decision to make.
I think that he didn't worry about, you know,
being a make-weight or, you know,
having to plug around to get those two points anymore.
You have to really love driving
to be able to just do that, I think.
Yeah, that's an interesting thing.
I think it varies among even top drivers
how much they actually enjoy the driving,
the physical sensation of driving.
I get the sense that most of them,
it's no longer a factor.
It may have been when they came in,
but it's just about the competition.
It's just about the achievement and...
I think also there's a,
we're getting off track a little bit,
but with regard to when is it time to stop?
I mean, the enjoyment of driving diminished to me
because we bought in these groove tires.
And I drove such a fantastic car in the FW18,
the Williams car, was so beautifully balanced for me.
I just loved it.
So things were getting better, better, better.
And then suddenly they bought in these groove tires.
The arrows wasn't grooved,
the following year was grooved.
Jordan, the first Jordan.
And hated them.
And I think these drivers now,
they have not enjoyed the Venturi cars
and they don't enjoy the tire degradation thing
and tire management thing.
So there's a lot of things that they perhaps
are not enjoying.
They're not giving you that feedback.
They're not giving you feedback.
If you've been doing that a long time,
the enthusiasm for getting in the car
and going from doing a lap has got to be less.
So if, I mean, what's happening now
is they're producing new cars.
So I think there'll be a level of excitement
about leaving that one behind
and going on to this new,
let's see what this is like.
A novelty factor that might be uplifting.
Is there an element also in deciding
when it's time to leave of what comes next?
If you've got no idea what you're going to do next,
it's easier to just keep going.
Yeah, I think, I think though,
Gerhard had a load of business.
He went straight into a lot of business.
Some people famously start up
isn't it?
Leaky Loud had airlines, you know,
two, three airlines.
And, you know,
Jodie Schechter went off and did his business
and they were more proud of the work they did
after they stopped racing than some of them
than when they were driving.
But Gerhard, but I think it was interesting
listening again to Seb talking about this
and how he felt a bit lost, you know,
this is what, what am I for?
What I had a job
and I think it's going to be particularly bad
or more keenly felt for the guys
that started when they were five.
They've never known anything
other than racing all the time.
How do you get out of that?
I think for Max,
he'll just go and race something else.
He'll keep racing until, you know,
he'll be like Mary Andretti,
he'll be racing Indy 500 when he's 60 or something.
That's not a prediction.
Well, you know, it would track.
Yeah.
But, but Michael, I think Michael was like that.
I think Michael was a bit of a lost soul
when he stopped the first time.
I think it's a big hole, leaves a big hole.
Yeah.
And I, you know, Lewis has got his fashion brands
and interest in film work and making music,
but you don't get the sense that that's where he's...
Yeah.
That's where I'm going next.
You get the sense of what am I going to do next?
It's very simple, our sport in a way.
You don't have to think too much.
If someone does the calendar,
you've got a schedule,
you have to be here by a certain time
and on Friday morning,
or you're going to be in a racing car concentrating.
It's served up to you.
It's like going into a restaurant
and having a set menu.
You know, you're given that menu.
If you, let's say, you come out of Formula One
and you go, OK, I've got a business.
The reason people are interested in Formula One,
businesses are interested in Formula One
is because we have goals and targets
that are very, very obvious and very...
There's a definitive line where it's measured
and it's in front in full display of everyone.
And it's very difficult to actually do that with the company
if, let's say, you're designing an airplane.
It could go on for years.
Where are those little victories that you could get or results?
So that's what you miss, is the structure.
The months go by, you know, it's summer now,
much bit cricket.
Yeah.
Is there any, well, for you, was there any addiction
to, you know, you get in the car
and the rest of the world ceases to exist?
You put your helmet on and you're in that world
and the car accelerates
and you're in your own little world and...
I think adrenaline is a drug that you become normalised to.
You become someone who's used to coping
with high levels of adrenaline.
And then if you start...
And I was very conscious of the history of drivers
who'd stopped and then went on to do other things
like powerboating or stunt planes
and the rest of it or hand gliding.
There's not a good record of drivers
coming out of Formula One
and then pursuing some other dangerous sport
and coming a cropper.
And I was, because of my dad not making it past 46,
you know, having just retired months earlier,
I was very conscious of keeping myself away
from dangerous sports.
You do need the adrenaline fix, you know,
whether it's skiing or mountain biking.
I mean, I went surfing and I got, you know,
I got a little bit, I did stuff
that was within safe bounds, relatively.
But you know, you do miss...
Eventually what happens is the adrenaline levels drop off.
And I remember once, about three years after I stopped racing,
I remember thinking, this might,
the knot in my stomach just sort of relaxed.
And I remember thinking, oh, that's interesting.
I just, I feel relaxed.
So this is what it's like.
Yeah.
And then the next time you start to do something that's risky,
you go, oh, I don't like that.
That's, I feel uncomfortable.
I feel uncomfortable.
I don't like it.
Yeah, yeah.
Whether that's the story for everyone else, I can't say.
But for me, certainly, I became conscious
that adrenaline, you know,
the fix you get from competition and driving fast
is quite hard to get away from.
And I do think someone like Michael,
I mean, he's sought different thrills.
I'm not suggesting anything happened with the skiing thing,
but he did motorbike racing.
He did, like, Lewis, skydiving, all these things
to keep that thrill thing topped up.
Mika Hacklin, the end of, well,
midway through 2001, in Monaco,
in the middle of a practice session,
he just thought I've had enough.
And he told Ron he wanted to retire there and then,
at that moment, niggie, louder style.
Ron convinced him, first of all, to finish the weekend
and then subsequently to finish the season
and then have a year off and think about it.
But I don't think that the sabbatical was ever
in Mika's head.
It was only in Ron's head.
I think Ron wanted Mika to come back
and hoped that he would somehow with a bit of reflection
and regain his desire, but he never did.
But there are some drivers who said
they regretted making a decision too soon.
Stirling Moss said he, when he came back
after his bad accident in 62,
and he came back to Goodwood a year later
and was said competitive times,
but didn't feel it was natural anymore.
So he decided to stop.
He said in hindsight, I should have waited
a little bit longer.
I've been saying that, yeah.
Because he thinks if he'd left it a bit longer,
it would probably have come back and felt more natural.
Carlos Reudemann has said he regretted stopping when he did.
He felt it was a bit too early.
So I don't suppose you ever regretted it,
did you?
You didn't show any sign of thinking?
No, I mean, as far as I think I stopped
at the right time and I could have stopped.
Like I said, I think I could have stopped
at the end of 98 and gone, that's it.
But it's a difficult one too.
I mean, the one with Micah, the point that made me think,
remind me of what's something that Bernie said once,
which was when a driver sees the red light,
he should stop immediately.
When you've decided to end your season,
to carry on for the rest of the year
is not a good feeling.
That's what you were, wasn't it?
It's just not good.
It's not good.
It's an on or off switch.
It's not a, we're on amber.
It's got to be full on or off.
And that was the most uncomfortable time of my life
as a driver.
I felt obliged to continue and I didn't want to.
I just wanted to get to the end.
Did the concern about getting yourself hurt
and that time increase?
Yeah, absolutely.
I started thinking, I've been lucky.
I've been in a team where I've lost a teammate.
I've lost several friends along the way.
And I've been lucky.
And I just didn't want to push my luck anymore.
And James Hunt said that as well.
And he stopped mid-season.
He said when he was competitive
and in a competitive situation,
he could forget about the fear.
He said, but when suddenly the car was down there,
the fear came in.
And this with Lewis making his announcement
that he was leaving Mercedes,
he had to do an entire year with a team
where he's leaving at the end of the year.
That must have been dreadful.
So, yeah, choosing the...
I think if the red light comes on, just walk away.
Let the lawyers sort out the rest
because there's gonna be people complaining.
You didn't complete your...
Yeah, I think that's where you may see that.
I wouldn't discount that we would see that with Lewis.
I'd be surprised if we saw it with Fernando.
Yeah, I'd be very surprised.
Yeah, we can only wait and see.
I think Fernando is...
We're gonna have to get a kind of tug-of-war,
get some people with some ropes
and let the end of the season then start
to sort of drag him out of the paddock.
And you're gonna have to find something else to drive
because he will go on forever.
The Athletic.
The Athletic.
The Athletic.
New phones and four lines on Unlimited Welcome.
Additional terms applied.
See Verizon.com for details.
Hey, it's Raj.
And Noah.
And we're back with a new season of Am I Doing It Wrong?
The show that explores the all-too-human anxieties
we have about trying to get our lives right.
Because we're still doing a lot of stuff wrong.
But who isn't?
That's why each week, we're talking about the topics
that we could all use a little helping hand with,
whether it's making new friends as an adult,
managing our emotions, or even dreaming.
We'll be talking to experts in their fields
who are definitely doing things right.
So the rest of us can be a bit wiser
and a lot better equipped to handle whatever life throws at us.
Subscribe now and listen to new episodes of Am I Doing It Wrong?
Trapping every Thursday starting January 1st,
wherever you get your podcasts.
And for the first time ever,
we're gonna have full video episodes on YouTube.
Because as long as there are things to get wrong,
we're gonna be right here to help you do them better.
Love y'all.
Talking about guns with others might not always feel comfortable,
but it could save a life.
Here's a way to start a conversation.
Your family is going over to your neighbor's home
for dinner for the first time.
How would you ask if there are any unlocked guns in the home?
Hey!
Hey, we're so excited for tonight.
Before we come over, though,
may I ask if there are any unlocked guns in your home?
Our guns are stored securely, locked in a safe
that the kids can't access.
Awesome.
Learn how to have the conversation at agree2agree.org,
brought to you by the Ad Council.
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