Why Are Destination Fees So High?

Hello, and welcome to the Truthball Cars podcast.

I am Tim Healy, the managing editor, and today we're discussing destination and delivery

fees.

We chat with Consumer Reports' Jeff Bartlett about why those fees are so high.

We also chat about pressure washers and NASCAR's caution-filled race agreements with T-Tech

contributor Matthew Guy.

Don't forget that T-Tech listeners can get $10 off of an annual digital Consumer Reports

membership by clicking on cr.org slash t-tech.

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This week on the T-Tech podcast, we're talking with Jeff Bartlett from Consumer Reports.

He is the managing editor for the car group at Consumer Reports.

Jeff, how are you doing?

I'm doing great.

You're glad to have a chance to talk cars.

Yeah, so we'll be talking cars, and specifically we'll be talking about one thing that new

car buyers have to deal with every time they buy a car.

Something we don't talk about a lot because it's kind of taken for granted in the industry,

but it's destination fees on new cars.

Most of our listeners know what destination delivery fees are.

For the few who don't, it's something that is attached to a new car transaction, basically

paying for the delivery of the car to the dealership, as well as the prep it had done

to the dealership.

I'll get into that in a little bit as someone who's a former dealership employee myself.

We can get into that a little bit down the line here.

Destination fees, and I assume there's probably a little bit of profit padded in, but we'll

also get into that too.

Destination fees are something that every car buyer has to deal with, and they've gotten

pretty high.

Jeff, that's what we're talking about today, is why they've gotten high, and can you walk

us through what you've seen in your research?

Yes, certainly.

This has been a troubling trend, and one we've observed for many years.

Destination charges, like you said, are affixed right on the window sticker, and they're non-negotiable.

The idea is that they cover the cost of transporting the vehicle from factory to dealership wherever

that factory may be, but they've become pretty significant.

We found this year, I'm looking into them for the 2020-26 model year, that the average

is $1,670, and that's up quite a bit from the last time we really rolled up our sleeves

on it, which was back in 2020 when they were $1,244.

But the average, as is often the case, doesn't tell the full story.

Some of them are now over $2,000 and even $3,000, making them really significant.

I haven't seen $3,000, which only him is doing that.

That's Alfa Romeo, which in a way you understand like, well, those cars got come from a pretty

far distance, and understandably, they cost quite a bit to do it.

They also don't have vehicles built in the US that they can spread the cost to.

But on the other hand, Alfa Romeo's often carry significant discounts to move the metal,

so they have kind of an unusual situation where that's high, discounts elsewhere, money's

moving in many directions, making it probably confusing for customers.

Yeah, so why has there been such a short, or let me rephrase that.

Why has there been such a high increase, such a short amount of time?

You use an example in your article of a gentleman who had just purchased a Mazda CX-5 in 2019,

and it was up 30% over 2016.

So what's the high increase in such a short amount of time?

Well, part of it is, of course, over the past decade, there have been moments like we're in

right now where transportation costs are elevated, not just the price of petroleum,

which can go up and down, but also a shortage of drivers and the increased complexity with

the logistics of transporting vehicles.

So there are some really hard costs in there, but those tend to be reflected in destination

chargers that go up, seldom go down.

And part of the reason is it appears the manufacturers are using this quote-unquote

fixed cost to make other pricing adjustments.

And in the past year, that's really meant helping offset the impact of tariffs.

So I think some of the increase we've seen very recently has been proactive adjustments,

and some of its reactive adjustments to try and kind of hide some of the real

expenses that manufacturers are experiencing without putting them front and center in marketing

by changing the MSRP.

Okay, yeah.

So that makes sense.

And I think part of it too is, like you said, when it comes to transportation costs,

obviously fuel prices play a part.

The fuel for the semi-trucks that bring the cars from the factory to the dealerships,

and obviously we're, as we record this right now, we're in a particular geopolitical situation where

gas prices might be rising and diesel prices might be rising even more.

You know, it's a little bit influx at the moment.

So now one thing I've noticed too, and you mentioned this in the article that's on your

website at consumerreports.org, is most car buyers know that these MSRP, excuse me,

these destination fees are on a Monroney, and I think a lot of people know to look for them,

particularly I think car enthusiasts and our listeners.

But I think a lot of car buyers who aren't familiar with the industry don't know that.

And I also think, as you say, it's kind of destination fees are not baked into the prices

in car ads, they're not baked into the MSRP.

Usually you have your, if you look at a Monroney, you have your MSRP for the base price,

then you have one with options, and depending on the automaker,

sometimes, most automakers I think, if I don't have a Monroney right in front of me,

actually I do, most of the automakers have the destination fee listed separately.

Yeah, so I've got a Nissan Centra Monroney in front of me from a car I tested a while back,

and I've got the base price listed, then there's a list of options,

and then in another section is the destination charge.

So I think a lot of car buyers don't even think about it, and they get taken by surprise,

and I also think, well, I should probably say that I know.

One thing I've noticed is, as we work on car reviews here at DTEC,

I personally make an effort to list destination in just about every car review I do in the first

drive I do. If I don't, it means either I forgot, which is a mistake in my part, or the automaker

hasn't announced it yet, which sometimes does happen with the first drive, but very rarely.

But we try and make sure they're in our reviews, and I believe most of our, most other

automotive journalism outlets do the same, but the one thing is, the destination fees can often

be really hard to find on a consumer website, and sometimes when I'm working on a car review,

I try and build and price a car similar to the one I tested, for whatever reason.

Sometimes I just do it on the consumer site, potentially since prices change over time,

or features can change, and I'm looking at it, and sometimes I just can't find the destination

fee. Canadian websites, or Canadian consumer websites from automakers are especially bad

about this. They're actually worse than the American sites. We cover the Canadian market too,

so even though I'm based in Chicago and I'm American, we do look at the Canadian sites,

and it can be really hard to find. Is there anything that could change that? Is there ever

going to be a law that says automakers need to disclose these more prominently on their websites?

Obviously there are the Moneronis, but is there anything that can change that?

Well, I don't know that there would be a law, but we certainly, at Consumer Reports,

are pressuring automakers to make it more visible, and make it front and center and

advertising. The concern is that consumers are going into a dealership with a rough set of

numbers in their head and corresponding budget to go with it, and come out having spent or

committed to spending a lot more money. I think you're doing the right thing,

and really modeling what consumers should do in terms of, yes, you can absolutely get these figures

off of a window sticker, and you can find them when you build out a vehicle on the consumer site.

If you're just browsing the consumer site, you'll often find that the destination is

hidden in a footnote among 20 other footnotes. Yeah, I've experienced that for sure.

Yeah, that's a real concern. Another thing that you're exposed is when we're reviewing

new models or models that haven't quite yet come to market, sometimes the media doesn't have

the final accurate figures yet, but you can always get a sense by looking at the footnotes

on a consumer site for shoppers who are thinking a little bit ahead. If you're looking at whatever

brand considering an SUV, just look at any other SUV, or just look at the small print,

it'll get you pretty close. The reality is the destination prices used to be, at least in my

mind, kind of something you're aware of, it's not a big deal. The price of the vehicle is really

what you're budgeting on. Destination kind of comes out in the wash with a little negotiation

on the sticker price, but nowadays, especially with loans stretching well past five years,

it becomes pretty expensive over time. You really got to know what you're getting into

and understand that the destination isn't negotiable. Yeah, that's really good to know.

We are speaking with Jeff Bartlett from Consumer Reports. We'll be right back here

on the Truth About Cars podcast. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.

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Jeff, I wanted to ask you, as we come back from break here, I wanted to ask you a couple

different questions about why the fees have gone up. And first of all, I wanted to ask,

and this is actually something I don't know. I probably should know it given how long I've

been in the industry, but I actually don't know the truth. What do you see destination fee of,

say, 1500 bucks on a window sticker? How much of that money breaking down? How much goes to the

automaker to pay for transportation costs and that sort of thing? And how much goes to the dealer

for prep? Yeah, that's an interesting question. The manufacturers in our experience aren't

especially open with breaking down how the money is used and distributed. But our understanding is

that money goes to the manufacturer and it's for delivery and logistics. It's not for dealer prep.

In fact, often shoppers will encounter a dealer prep fee that gets tacked on to a

Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah, you know, say 300 bucks to prepare the car. Certainly something

to negotiate. But really, you know, you think of destination is almost like the postage on the

package. The dealer's just passing it along and it doesn't benefit from it in any which way,

which also means that they're not allowed to negotiate it. You know, they're free to negotiate

the difference between what they pay for the vehicle and what they would like you to pay.

But that's a fixed cost for them as well. Yeah, that makes sense. And then the dealer prep fee,

you know, I don't know if we ever charged that when I worked at a dealership. I don't believe

that we did. I was in service, not sales. I was not always privy to the numbers. But what I can tell

you is, and again, I haven't worked at dealership in like 20 years, but I don't think much has

changed. I know that there was some prep that had to be done when cars came off the truck.

Someone at the dealership have assigned for them to make sure they were not damaged,

not a sort of thing. In fact, I once got yelled at because I signed for them when I wasn't supposed

to. Nearly I fired that day. That was the biggest chewing that I ever got in five years of working

there. Because apparently, only a sales manager was supposed to do it. And the guy was in a meeting

and I just, trucker was pressuring me and I was 19 years old and didn't know any better. But anyway,

that's neither here nor there. No, the trucks, when the cars come off the truck, there's a lot

times there's, I forget what the name for it is, but there's kind of a protective film on some of

the cars that has to be pulled off. The cars need to be washed in detailed. Sometimes it is done,

the dealership I worked at, we tend to not to do it until the car was sold,

just because otherwise we're doing extra work. But you have porters who are doing this. So you're,

so the costs that go into this are the porters, I'll really wage. Obviously, the chemicals used

to clean and wash the car. So you're soap, your tire shine, and then, you know, your window dressing

or a Windax or whatever. And whatever. So that's basically the cost of it. So it can't be,

it can't be that high of a cost. You know, the tools used to clean and detail a car plus the

person's labor plus, you know, of course, the overhead of electricity and stuff. So a $300

dealer prep fee does seem a little high. So I have to wonder, you know, and again, they don't

break the numbers down. But I have to wonder how much is actually just covering the cost and how

much is profit, whether you're talking about dealer prep fee, or whether you're talking about

automaker who's charging $5,500 as a destination fee, you know, is that $5,500 just covering the

cost? Or is there a profit in there? Well, so if there's a dealer prep fee, I would consider that

all profit. If you think of a dealership essentially as a car store, what the dealer prep fee is

charging you is to stock the item. If you went into the grocery store and you pick up, you know,

box of noodles or cereal, it doesn't also say plus a dollar to put it on the shelf for you.

You know, it should be all baked into the charging. Dealerships are, you know, notorious for

trying to find ways to separate customers from their hard earned dollars. And that is another

one that they, it's another little lever that they can pull. Yeah, it's like what you know,

for oil change, there's a $2.50 shop fee for the towels they use. And I always believed that some

of that covers the cost of using a couple rags, but I always also believed I never could prove it

and it was never high enough up in the hierarchy. I always believed that some of that cost was also

profit too. So maybe they really spent a dollar on towels and the dollar 50 goes into profit. But

anyway, I wanted to switch gears a little and ask my next question, which is, you guys at Consumer

Report saw a nice article about this, the truth about destination fees, kind of like a TDAD,

TDADF anyway. The one thing you found is that Ford and General Motors blamed the popularity of

SUVs and trucks because according to them, you can't fit as many trucks and SUVs on a car carrier

because they're bigger vehicles, right? So you can't fit as many so they want to make up that

increases shipping costs and increases destination fees. But then you also point out that other

automakers, to say that five times fast, didn't do the same thing, but every other automaker is

also selling SUVs and in some cases trucks. So what happened there? Why are Ford and GM

blaming trucks? Is it just an excuse? Is it because they sell more pickup trucks?

Some of the other automakers sell SUVs and not trucks. What is going on there?

Yeah, that's an interesting question. I think, like your shop rags example, the automakers do

have a fair point of larger vehicles, not only take up more space, but their weight means more fuel

is consumed. So it is more expensive to ship a full size, three row SUV versus a little

subcompact car. That's understandable. Some automakers have fewer models to spread their

costs over. So if you were to think of, say, a Toyota, the cost of shipping a Sequoia,

that can be offset by moving a few dollars to the Corollas. But RAM, or even Ford these days,

doesn't have quite the same model mix and latitude there. So I think there's a fairness

in terms of something big costs more. But I think there might be something else to it as well.

Just my personal observation, I have to wonder if there's a certain acceptance among high dollar

vehicles, maybe at play, trucks are super expensive and often bought for businesses or

leased for businesses. And maybe the automaker feels comfortable shifting a little bit more of

the cost into this particular fee for those. Yeah. And speaking of shifting costs, so your

article concludes with a few consumer tips and we'll link it when we push this podcast. We'll

link to it. But your article links to a few consumer tips. But before that, the very conclusion,

you quote a gentleman named Jack Gillis from, he works with the Consumer Federation of America,

and he says the automakers should be responsible for getting their product to the retailer,

just like eggs for grocery store, I'm quoting him here, or like trying to store like Best Buy.

And that sounds logical, but I would also think that if dealers or excuse me, if automakers weren't

separating out the dealer, the destination fee, if the automaker was just paying for it and not

trying to voice that on customers, then the MSRP would be higher. I always use the example of bags

and airlines, you know, airlines are charging for us to check our bags. And then Southwest didn't

charge for a long time. But I always wondered, there's no way to prove it, unless you work for

Southwest, but I was wondering Southwest, maybe raise their fairs just a little bit to, to make

up for the fact they weren't charging for bags. I know they charge for bags now, I believe. But

yeah, if automakers weren't charging you $1,500 separately, and they got rid of destination

fees, would that increase the price of an MSRP? Because wouldn't they just be baking that in?

Oh yeah, they would have to. And your airline example is a good one. You know, essentially,

there are fixed costs and a very specific profit target. And the companies aren't going to give

up either of those. The auto industry is kind of a very unique industry in terms of how it presents

numbers to customers and the shell games that it plays, you know, trying to hypnotize the consumer

into spending a little more than they might otherwise. But yeah, if, if destination wasn't a

separate $2,000 charge, it would just be added to the window sticker and that'd be $2,000 more.

But in this moment in time, especially, I think automakers are trying to be not only competitive

with one another, but very sensitive to customers who are being hit with a bit of sticker shock

at a time when, you know, the cost of most things has been going up.

So, you know, if you can make the car look a little less expensive and then tuck this fee away

somewhere else, you know, I'm sure they spend endless amounts of money researching this.

That strategy apparently is the winning one for pulling people into the dealerships.

Well, it makes sense. And yeah, you mentioned cost of living going up and cost of cars going

up and people's wages aren't matching. But it also makes sense that, you know, if you don't

have that, if you take that $2,000 out, it's not baked into the fee, you can advertise a lower

price. And once the person's in the dealer, they might just like, well, okay, you lure me in at

$22,000. I paid for a few things I want some extra features or a higher trim level. So that's on me,

you know, I added another $1,000 in options. And you say, well, you have the destination fee,

it's non-negotiable, we can't get rid of it, can't avoid it. What's the consumer going to do?

And if they go to another automaker, they'll still have to deal with it. So they can't just walk away.

So they kind of just like, well, I'm here, and it's part of the deal. So now my price goes from

$22,000 plus the $1,000 for options. Now you're at $25,000. And it's like, well, what are you going

to do? You know, so I understand that if the automakers were advertising as part of their cost,

the cars would look too, the price would look $2,000 higher. So I get that. And as you mentioned

too, in the article that you guys pushed out at Consumer Reports, Dan Bador, former PR guy,

and now an independent consultant, a gentleman I know fairly well, he mentions that destination

ends up being another way that the business can bring in revenue. And it speaks back to your point

too, that the automotive industry has always been unique. I mean, it's one of the few things

where you can negotiate a price, you know, you go to Best Buy to buy a TV, the TV is what it

costs, what it costs. It's $500 plus tax. I bought a new TV a few months back. I need my other TV

had got head broke, and I just need another, see a new TV and, you know, I paid whatever,

whatever it was plus tax and boom, you know, done. You know, when you get a refrigerator,

dishwasher, any major appliance, the only thing that you really negotiate price on is a house.

I mean, well, some people might buy a boat or if you're wealthy enough, a plane, but that's,

those are luxury items for only a few people. Almost everybody needs a car and a house, right?

So, you know, if you're buying a house, you can negotiate, maybe you can negotiate rent if you're

renting in some cases, but most, most things you buy are fixed prices. Even when you go to service,

it's fixed. It's $30 Royal change plus tax. So, it's a little strange that the automotive industry

works the way it does. And like Mr. Bredor says too, it doesn't take a lot of mathematical skill

to understand that if you have a small increase over however many million cars are sold a year

for the automaker, that's a, and if there's some profit in that cost especially,

or into that fee, that number adds up quickly. Yeah, definitely does.

One interesting takeaway in your example is, yes, most products in life have a fixed cost.

And you know, maybe you're lucky to get an on sale, which is great. The other major thing you

negotiate being a home, but with that, you have a professional there to help you. Yeah. With a car,

you're dealing with a purchase on average every five years is the typical cycle in America.

And no realtor on your side. No expert on your side. And you're dealing with someone on the other

side of the desk who not only does this day in and day out, but they're personally incentivized

to get as much as they can out of you. And they're trained on how to do it. So, you are

in a weak position buying the car. But you also make a fair point too, you know, no matter what car

you buy, you're going to pay destination. And once, you know, your heart's sold on a vehicle,

that just becomes a, you know, a few dollars extra a month as they finance it out. Yeah.

I do want to follow on the comment about how profit can be tucked in. I've had conversations

recently that expose, you know, the industry is facing some real challenges with the cost of

materials changing left and right. A number of manufacturers are investing and bringing more

production to the US, which is down at a very significant expense. So, you know, I think if

we had this conversation three years ago, we would probably be leaning a little bit more on,

you know, geez, they're, you know, really sticking it to the, you know, to the little guy.

But I think at this moment in time, they're just trying to hide their increasing costs at a time

when the profit per dollar charged is going down. That's offset by they're selling more

higher end cars, but that's a different conversation. So they've, they've got to move their money around

a little bit too. And it is being exposed in these destination chargers.

Yeah. Before we go, and before we wrap up, we have a little bit of time left still. So I also

wanted to drill down a little bit on individual manufacturers that you call out for price increases.

We've already talked a little bit about Ford and GM blaming trucks. And you've already mentioned

Alfa Romeo with being built overseas and having a high destination because of that. But I wanted

to get into Stellantis a little bit and Ford, not as much, but looking at chart that you produce,

the consumer reports, it's clear that Ford is the second highest on the average. And then

Stellantis is really the highest. And I've noticed that too, just, just reviewing cars

for a living and going on first drive events. Notice, just anecdotal, I haven't tracked it on

a spreadsheet or anything like that. But, you know, just noticing as we do car reviews and as we,

and as we do pricing news, just seeing that Stellantis has across, across the board, across

his brands really had the highest destination fees. And let's take Alfa Romeo and Fiat out of it

because of where those vehicles are built. Why is Stellantis so high even with vehicles that are

built in the US, Canada and Mexico? Yeah, that's a great question. They've long been high. So I think,

you know, they're somewhat a trend of their own making because as with all automakers, they're

looking to, you know, sneak an extra hundred or 200 in to offset, you know, the cost of importing

steel or parts, they're already starting from a high place. And so it only gets higher from there.

The other dimension is like we said earlier, many of the Stellantis products these days are large.

So, you know, you get, you know, wagon ears, you got ram trucks, things that are very expensive

to move by, you know, however it's done. So I think that's just where they're at. And they

don't have many small vehicles to offset that. Yeah, so I've got two questions left before we

run out of time here. So you mentioned, you were correct, I should have mentioned that. But

Stellantis, we'll just look at the chart, which compares Stellantis for General Motors, Honda

and Toyota. Stellantis has been higher going back to 2011, going back to 2012, really 2013,

is when they sort of separated themselves. So over over a decade, they've been higher on the

average than the rest. Now General Motors, Honda, Toyota have a similar trend line in terms of

increase. And I'm not quite sure what the word is, but they basically follow the same arc,

and they're pretty close to one another. Ford is on that same arc until 2018, actually 2019,

and then jumps in 2019. And it's not as high as Stellantis, but it's it has jumped, this chart goes

to 2020. So I don't know if the pandemic played a part in that. But why is Ford where they're at,

just because they're so truck heavy? Well, I think that's what we see. So you're looking at a chart

that goes back pretty far. In our more recent analysis, we see Ford's right there in the top

10 of the most expensive neck and neck with GM and really Graham as well. And I think that's

like we've been talking about their product line is now mostly big, heavy things that are expensive

to ship to ship. I don't think there's really much more to it than that. Okay. In a way, I think

the more fascinating thing to me is what's at the other end of the spectrum, which are the

brands that are least expensive. And they're not what you would automatically think.

Three of the least expensive are Mercedes, Toyota and BMW. This might be the only context

which are Mercedes and BMW are less than most other brands by any measure. So that fascinates me

as well. Yeah, I have to wonder part of part is because so many BMWs and Mercedes are built in the

south and have a shorter transit than maybe a Ford built in Canada. I don't know. That's a good

question. We're running out of time, but I did have two questions I wanted to ask. I was trying to

roll them into one. One, did the pandemic change anything? I assume that it may have driven up

costs because it drove across for everything. And then two, how much does rail shipping play

apart? We've been talking about trucking and the cost of fuel and all that. But some vehicles

are shipped by rail, at least part of the journey as well. Does that play a part at all?

So I think the pandemic had all kinds of impact in changing the market and production.

In terms of destination charges, I don't think that had nearly the impact that the tariffs did.

Makes sense. It makes sense. Yeah. They're shipping fewer because obviously sales dipped,

but it didn't increase the costs in quite the same way, at least to my recollection.

In terms of rail, I don't think of rail as often because I simply don't see it,

but I see vehicles on trucks all the time. But rail, truck, however the vehicles are delivered,

that is all rolled into destination charges. And like you said, what's going to impact that is

how far the vehicles have to travel. So models that are built in the U.S. obviously don't have

to go as far, but their costs are averaged over the entire country. So the person who lives next

to the factory will pay as much as the person who lives 3,000 miles from it. The notable exception

to that is some manufacturers charge a little extra to get a vehicle to Alaska or Hawaii.

And by my book, that seems pretty reasonable. Yeah, Hawaii is reachable only by a boat or

cargo plane, obviously. And then Alaska requires you to go through another country if you're going

by road. And I'm sure if you can truck by road through some of those more rugged parts of British

Columbia in Alaska, you may have to fly or boat vehicles or rail vehicles to there.

And I don't know up top of my head how much rail is used. I believe rail in some cases is used

just to get vehicles from a port city or from the port to a place where they can get on a truck.

So I didn't want to overstate the case. I'm not quite sure up top of my head how much rail is

used in shipping. And to your point, I think the pandemic not really affecting destination fees

makes sense because truckers are probably working alone, so they're not really worried about getting

sick too much. And I'm sure some may have missed some time, may have caught COVID and been down

for a few days. But I don't recall gas prices being too crazy during COVID, because oil

shipping seemed to not really be affected as much as other stuff was. I could be wrong. I could be

misremembering, but I don't remember it being the way it might be with what's going on in Iran.

So anyway, with that, we'll have to go ahead and end it. There's actually

more we can talk about on this subject, and maybe we'll have you back on, Jeff, because it seems

like one of those kind of subjects that doesn't really matter that much, but it matters a lot,

especially if you're buying a new car. So again, Jeff Bartlett, the managing editor at Consumer

Reports for the car group. And Jeff, thank you so much for your time talking destination fees

this week on the Truth About Cars podcast. Oh, thank you. I enjoyed it.

We enjoyed having you on. And also, before we go, just a quick note to our listeners, Consumer

Reports offers TTAC listeners a slight discount, a $10 off of an annual, excuse me, let me get

that correct, $10 off of an annual digital Consumer Reports membership. So go ahead to

cr.org slash TTAC. That is part of Consumer Reports looking out for our listeners. So

once again, Jeff, thanks for your time and much appreciated. All right, thank you.

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also find us online at TTAC.com, that is TTAC.com, or the Truth About Cars, allspotout.com.

We are your home for car reviews, car news, opinions, and so so much more.

Just about every week here on the TTAC podcast, the Truth About Cars podcast,

we are discussing the stuff we use in our homes, in our cars, and on our cars as it may be, detailing

products, cleaning products, tools, that sort of thing. So we typically have TTAC contributor

Matthew Guy with us, and he's with us today. That's just about always. Matthew, how are you?

Hey, not bad, Tim. How are you doing? I'm well. So we're discussing pressure washers today, which

is a good, I used to have a good time of year to discuss that because we're getting into spring.

Spring means rain. It means mud. It means dirt. It means washing all the winter's salt and grime

off of your vehicles. And if you have a farm, maybe your side by sides and your trackers and

your UTVs and that sort of thing. So walk us through pressure washers and what you found.

Yeah, definitely, man. I was using a couple of different ones over the weekend. And one I had,

excuse me, not previously used before, were one style, I should say, because most of us

are familiar with pressure washers that have a great big things with the gasoline powered engine,

then you roll them out on wheels, and you used them all the time in your dealership days, right?

I believe so. I don't think I used, I don't think I personally used them a lot. We did have,

for our car washings, we used basically a regular hose, but I have used pressure washers

in other instances. I've got people in my family who have a pressure washer on their farm and I've

gone off-roading with them. And we've used pressure washers to get mud and dirt off after a day off

roading. Oh, totally. And it's absolutely clutch for stuff like that. And I'm used to using those

big bulky ones, but the ones that I was trying at this weekend and the person who I was using them

had gotten them off eBay, was adapted almost like a cordless drill, like you can picture a

cordless drill, it's got the big 48, it's got the 48 volt battery in the bottom, the 21 volt

battery in the bottom. And that's what this was like, it was a handheld, and so it kind of looked

like a cordless drill, but with the big lance on the end of it, right, for the pressure washer

lance for the water to come out of. And it didn't have any complicated mechanisms,

didn't have anything that was super, super complicated to use. It just came in a little case,

and it had an adapter, which you would, one end was a quick disconnect that you would put on to

the bottom of this device. And then the other end would of course go on to your freshwater source,

like a garden hose. And it was really, really handy. Of course, it wasn't super loud, unlike some of

the other gasoline-powered pressure washers, which have the sound of the engine going and the

compressor, right, for making the pressure with the water. But these little wands, these are great,

and they're cordless, I mean, except for the water itself, and the hose, right? And it just

allows you a whole bunch more freedom to walk around the car, or UTV, like you said, and get

some of that really sticky mud, or being able to get some of the winter grime off your car,

as we're headed into the spring driving season. Yeah, yeah. So with pressure washers,

it seems ludicrous to say, but is there anything to worry about with safety? It's a lot of,

a lot of water pressure hitting a person, and some of them should walk in front of it.

You're right, you know, don't put your hand in front of one of these things, even if you're

using, so there are usually different quote-unquote angles, different degrees of pressure washer

tips, like right on the tip of the lance. And of course, the more focused that degree, right down

to zero degrees, in some instances, the harder or more direct the water is going to be. And you

could injure yourself quite badly if you hit yourself with a full pressure, you know, zero

degree stream of water. But you know, if you're using something that's like 20 degrees or 45

degrees or something like that, like a big fan of water, it's not too bad. You know, it's just

don't water your houseplants with them, you're going to wipe everything away. Yeah, you're

going to kill your plants. Yeah. Can you pressure wash your house? You sure can. You sure can. The

only, I suppose tip there, I was going to say pro tip, but I'm not exactly a pro, is if you're

pressure washing your house, just try to angle the water downwards over the siding so that you're

forcing water up under the siding because there's going to be little gaps and little

breaks in the last exciting. So yeah, so I mean, if you're angling it down, it's a great thing.

Also for cleaning off decks or patios on the back of your house, these things are super,

super versatile. And I was really impressed with this cordless pressure washer that the person

had battery powered. It was almost a 900 psi, which is, I think, great for such a small portable,

compact tool. And the fact that it came with everything that they needed, they got the thing

off each day, and then you just recharge it just like you would a cordless drill when you're done

for the day. And the only thing I didn't ask was how long that battery lasts. He was telling me it

came with two batteries. And I don't know, I mean, I pressure wash the Challenger, so that takes,

what, 20 minutes probably? And it didn't eat through an entire battery for that amount of time.

So you can at least do one car with one battery for sure. So this type of stuff, he said he paid

about $60 American for it off eBay. And I think that it was a really, really good, excuse me,

a really good purchase and something that, you know, anyone, any of our listeners could certainly

add to their arsenal of car cleaning products pretty easily. Yeah, anything else we should know

when it comes to power washers, pressure washers, excuse me, pressure washers, not really. I mean,

and the cool thing, one thing I will close with is that you can, with this, you were capable of

drawing water from just about any source, even a bucket full of water, and I even had an adapter.

So if you were in a remote area and just had a bucket of water and didn't have a,

didn't have a running source, you could use that too. So I thought that was very, very convenient.

Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, with that, we will go ahead and close out stuff we use here

on this week's Truth About Our Cars podcast. Thank you, Matthew. Thank you, Tim.

Here on this week's Truth About Cars podcast, we're talking NASCAR as we do just about every

week and we're going over what happened in the desert in Phoenix in the second part of the so

called, forget what the desert duo or desert duo, forget the terminology that NASCAR and

DCAR were using, we'll get to that in just a second. But first of all, we have a T-Tech

contributor, Matthew Guy, with us to discuss NASCAR this week, Matthew Haria. Hey, not bad,

man. How you doing? I'm doing well. So yeah, Phoenix this week, NASCAR and DCAR had kind

of a unique thing. They're going to probably do more in the future where they had IndyCar

and NASCAR in the same track, the same weekend as different days. So IndyCar was

at Phoenix on Saturday. And then I don't think it was the exact same time, start time. So it was

a little more than 24 hours later, NASCAR rolled out and rolled around Phoenix. And Fox had a

desert, I don't think they were using the word desert dual because it wasn't really a dual. Maybe

they were, maybe it was desert duo or something like that, but it was basically two races in the

desert. So a little bit of talk about IndyCar, but we won't spend much time on that because our

segment is focused on NASCAR. And we do have a lot to get to, especially given that this race had

the most cautions in a long time for Phoenix. I want to say, I forget the year, I have to go back

and look it up, but it had been quite a while. So we've seen that many cautions at Phoenix.

And we had tire issues and we had cars hitting the walls and we had cars hitting other cars. So

we had some questionable driving maneuvers and we had Tyler Reddick's historic streak being broken

at three. So with Ryan Blaney taking the victory. So Matthew, I took the lead last week a little

bit. So it's your turn, I think. I'll go ahead and throw it over to you to start.

Yeah, for real. And it was a neat kind of double header, right? In terms of, in terms of watching

them on TV, you had NASCAR and IndyCar, both at Phoenix. And whilst, of course, those are two

completely different series, I think it made for a really good weekend of racing at that facility.

And both the promoters and the TV crews leaned into it pretty well. They did, absolutely.

Right. Even though they are completely different series and arguably have a different fan base.

I mean, there's some people like you and I who just enjoy racing, right? It doesn't matter

in Sir or Indy or NASCAR or whatever. But by and large, you know, IndyCar and NASCAR have

different fan bases. So props to Phoenix and the television crews for leaning into it. I like that

a lot. And yeah, and there were a ton of, like you said, ton of cautions. We were talking before

the show here about how, okay, this race ran long. We had some stuff to, right? You had some other

things to do on Sunday. I had to move some personal things around to the next day because

places, businesses were closing. Yeah, anyway, carry on. Exactly, right? Because it did stretch

on a bit longer than normal. And you hit the nail right on the head. There were a lot of tire issues.

And some of them, I want to lean into that specifically, because most of our listeners

know we don't just recap the race because there's plenty of, you know, the results because there's

plenty of podcasts. And not only that, but we're going live a few days after the race ends too.

Exactly, right? Everyone knows what the results are. But we talked about quote unquote tire issues.

This time it wasn't Goodyear's fault. You know, sometimes we do definitely burn

Goodyear for having, you know, bringing the wrong compound or whatever the case may be. But

this time, I thought it was a really good, almost like a troll by Goodyear. They issued a tweet earlier

and before the race on March 6, and they said Phoenix tire, tire details for the weekend.

And engineers already ran the numbers. This is quote from Goodyear racing. And they said,

all right, so your left front is going to be 14 psi. We recommend 30 psi for the right front.

And all of those different very specific numbers. This is something that is out there. It's not

secret that can, that can, that can be out there. And each team, just in case anyone's wondering,

is allowed 10 set of tires for the entire race weekend, one for practice, one for qualifying,

and then eight for the race itself. And after tires started popping, Noah Gregson's

issue notwithstanding, that was where he broke a rotor, rotor flew apart. And then of course,

there was debris in that caused tire problems that outside of that. The recommended tire pressures

weren't guesses said Goodyear racing on Twitter on X. And so it was a little bit of a, you know,

just a little bit of a, you know, turning the key there because we know that these teams,

these NASCAR teams are always running on the ragged edge. I mean, as much as they can push

the envelope they're going to in order to get that final 100th or that final 10th or whatever.

And it did seem that especially as the race wore on there into the lighter part of the race, that

the teams were just trying to take a little bit too much in terms of tire pressure.

And Denny Hamlin said it quite well in his own podcast that it's the teams, right? We're just

pushing it, right? And they certainly know that the more you lower the air pressure, the faster

you're going to be on a long run. This is, we know this about this car. And teams just keep

pushing it, right? So they'll get comfortable in practice in the first run of the race. They see

where things are and they're like, all right, so we're going to take another 10th

out of the tire. We're going to take another two tenths. And that's where things start to

fall apart. And that's what happened over the weekend. I don't think Goodyear was responsible

any more than normal for tire problems this weekend. It was just teams being on the ragged

edge as they're supposed to be to try and get the most speed out of their cars. But the thing that

liked was, you know, Goodyear coming out with a tweet saying, remember, the recommended tire

pressures weren't guesses. So it was almost like a troll on Goodyear's part saying, huh, told you,

like, don't stretch this too far. We're going to have problems. And as we saw with all those

cautions towards the end of the race, there were some. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because

I wasn't sitting watching the race on my couch. I wasn't sitting there blaming Goodyear necessarily,

but I was thinking to myself, gee, why are there so many tire issues at this track? And it's been a

problem in the past. And I kept thinking, well, maybe it's the heat. It was 90 degrees ambient

temperature. So God only knows what was on the track, probably 120, 130. And, you know, tires

don't love excess heat, obviously, and they get hot when you're, we all know the tires get hot when

you're racing. And obviously, they, you know, they do lose grip over time. I think a couple of tire

incidents, if I remember correctly, the tires just kind of came off the rim more than anything else.

So, you know, I was kind of thinking, well, maybe it's just Arizona, maybe it's the surface or the

heat or both. You know, I don't know. So I'm glad you brought that up because it makes sense. Teams

are on, they're always looking for whatever edge they can over the, excuse me, over the competitors.

And, you know, if you're going to do, if you're in a scenario where you're trying to like,

push things with tire pressure a little bit, even if Goodyear says, don't mess with it,

you might mess with it within the rules. You might mess, excuse me, you might mess with it in

the rules because you want to be that much faster than the other guy. And these cars are so close,

the drivers are so close in talent that the guys who have a shot at winning each and every race

every week, sometimes it comes down to just a few, few tenths of a second or a few car lengths. So,

I think obviously that was, you know, like you said, a big part of the issue. And as we've seen

in NASCAR over, over the year and a half, two years, we've been doing the podcast and we've seen

a lot of the ovals, especially the higher speed ovals, the intermediate tracks them up, getting

too aggressive at the wrong time, and drivers hitting each other because they're trying to put

their car where someone else's car already is, and maybe they're too aggressive. Feetings has that

weird kind of dog leg tri-oval with, so it makes the restarts look a little bit chaotic. And then,

I think one of the big accidents, am I forgetting, I know IndyCard has happened and the driver didn't

see another guy and put him into the wall. That was Alex Paloga put into the wall. I think that

also happened in NASCAR too. One of the big accidents guy didn't see, and the spotter didn't

see him or maybe didn't communicate it quickly enough. And a guy collected another guy and we're

trying to think now, if I get my racing mixed up, two races at the same track, you know, six

hours watching two races at the same track, you might get your racing mixed up. But I'm pretty

sure at least once, one of the NASCAR incidents, the driver involved said he didn't see him. And

there was other stuff going on. I think it was the big Ligano wreck with the almonddinger that

was really kind of through a wrench into things, kind of monkey it up. So, you know,

um, uh, yeah, it was, uh, it was kind of a wreck filled just not a great race to watch.

So let's put it that way. Yeah. And I do think that sometimes we would say, oh God, you know,

Phoenix, uh, in terms of the race itself, you know, with that weird looking dog leg and everyone

kind of spreads out there, uh, going into that turn, right? It is, you know, for years we were

saying, oh God, you know, we're going back to Phoenix again, um, as a, as a group, as a, as a,

as a, as a fan base, we clamored for the, for the final race to be taken away from Phoenix and

given back to Homestead, you know, when that finally happened. Um, but you know, with the new

amount of horsepower in these cars, I think that helped a lot at Phoenix. Um, this is probably the

first time I think, um, so far this season that we've seen real noticeable effects of the extra

horsepower, um, in these cars that we now have for 2026 at certain tracks. Um, I think this is the

first time we've seen some actionable differences, you know, in terms of comparing this year's race

at track X to last year's race at track X. So was the race longer? Yeah. You know,

there were more cautions and then you had the tire issues or the tire pressure issues. Um, and, and

pressure as well, you know, I know that a lot of us, not just tire pressure, um, any racer knows

that camber is a big deal too, right? So I mean, how much you've got that camber going on your,

on your tires, whether it's on the left or on the right, that's going to affect tire wear. And

you talk about tires popping off the rim, you're exactly right. You know, that type of stuff is

just right on the regular edge. So, you know, we're looking forward. I'm, I don't know why,

but I always look forward to Vegas. Maybe it's just the spectacle of everything, you know, that

goes on in Vegas outside of the track. Um, but I always grin when I see the, uh, series turn

towards Vegas and there's not too far from Phoenix. So this year it's just going to be, uh,

it's just going to be a matter of, uh, turn the northward a little bit, uh, from Phoenix up to

going up to, uh, going up to Las Vegas. And there's, I'm looking forward to that. There's,

I think there's 36 cars entered. Um, so everyone who shows up is going to make the race that,

it's that sort of deal this time around. Um, and there looks like to be some pretty good paint jobs.

I'm just looking at nascar.com here. There's the standard stuff on the five car and whatnot,

but the six looks a little bit different. Um, which I think is always pretty cool. And the

11 car, I always get a kick out of his Yahoo sponsorship because they add as many O's as

possible and onto the quarter panel. Yahoo. That's fun. It's hilarious. It's so fun. You're

exactly right. It just looks, it just puts a grin on my face, man, to see that type of stuff.

Fan of the 11 car or not. I think it looks like a pretty fun looking paint scheme. So

how about you? What do you think Vegas coming up? You're looking forward to it or is this

going to be another one that's like, eh, not so sure. Well, let me get to that in just a second.

I, I, I did go back and just start taking a look at the Lugano, the big Lugano wrecked

in the Valdos and syndicate. I'd forgotten about how syndic jumped into the wall. So that, that was

the reason I went back to look at that was because that was the, uh, of all the different wrecks we

saw on Sunday. That was kind of the, um, most representative of the race. I thought it was

kind of, it's trying to keep all the cars straight, car numbers straight. It's difficult, but

Lugano kind of got into the back of somebody actually, and that car came around and collected

him and then he collected, uh, it was the one car, I think, the Kubota and then Alex Bowman, uh,

backup driver, because Bowman was sick again. Um, he gets collected and I'm trying to think, so it was the,

um, it was the two car or syndicate got at the worst. And I think it was, I think Blaney,

I don't know if it was Blaney, but it was the 12 car in front of him, I think, got away okay.

Anyway, that was a really bad wreck and that was kind of emblematic of,

of what happened in Phoenix and syndicate got at the worst by far. Um, I'm just looking right now to

see, I think it was Bubba Wallace actually who pulled away. It was hard to tell in the replay,

but, um, you know, uh, switching back to Vegas, um, now that, now that I've kind of just, you know,

talked about that wreck, which was the wreck that, yeah, that was Bubba Wallace who pulled

away. I'm looking for an angle now. Uh, that, that wreck was the one that really sort of like,

basically it was like, okay, this is emblematic of a rough day in Phoenix. So now that we got that

out of the way, I want to shift gears to, um, Vegas, like you said, uh, we've talked before about

how I have mixed feelings on the intermediate tracks, the mile and a halfers, um,

how they're kind of routine. And I don't want to say boring, it's, it's too strong of a word, but

they are sort of also bread and butter tracks in a way, you know, the short tracks of super speedway

as the road courses are all unique. And then you've got the mile, the mile, the mile and a half, uh,

ovals. Um, and Vegas is a, it's a high bank track. It should be a pretty fast track. It,

it should be interesting. I mean, like you said, there's always spectacle because it is Vegas and

everything has to be done to the, to the 11th degree there. You know, the old spinal tap line

about things go into 11. You always have showgirls before the race, walking around in the showgirl

outfits. And they always, I don't know who the celebrity is who's going to do the, the command

this week. I haven't looked it up. I'm not even sure it's been announced yet, but, um, I'm sure

it'll be somebody, it'll be a big name or someone ties with ties to Vegas or both. Sorry, I'm sorry.

It's someone outrageous here exactly. Yeah, yeah, probably. So, um, you know, I'm looking forward

to it, but you know, like you and I have said before, these, these intermediate tracks can kind

of be boring. It's the wrong word, but almost too routine. I think maybe, you know, and then,

but one thing I love about NASCAR is when NASCAR does things a little bit differently than other,

that's one thing I liked and hated about Phoenix. We talked about it a few minutes ago that,

that dog lagging, the, the chaotic restart part of me hates it because of all the wrecks it led to,

but part of me likes it because it's like, it's just unique to watch all those cars dive bomb

from the start finish line or towards the finish line. And if you're watching the race,

especially at one camera angle, that kind of comes behind as they go into turn one,

they're all sort of just dive bombing and you're five or six wide in some places,

you know, that makes things cool. I, I, I would, that's one reason why I love any track that's

a little bit different because you don't want racing to be the same track in a different city

every week, you know? So, um, I think Vegas will be fun as it always is. Uh, you know, these, these,

these intermediate tracks tend to tend to favor the A-listers, of course. So, um, I'm not going

to be shocked if Denny Hamlin or Bubba Wallace walks away with the win or Tyler Reddick gets another

one. Uh, you know, I think it's, it's, um, gotta be a fun race. Um, hopefully that's right for

those Phoenix. And I was surprised looking at some of the statistics, uh, getting ready for

today's podcast because for active drivers, Las Vegas race winners, Logano leads with four wins

dating back to only 2019. So I mean, that's six years. He's had four wins in six years.

I didn't compute that in my jaundiced brain. Um, so between him, Larson has won three times as well

since 2021. So those two cars are always a good bet to perform really well, uh, at any given week,

but just from a statistics point of view, that is even better news. Um, sticking with tires for

a second, just looking here at what Goodyear is bringing for Las Vegas. We know any, you know,

if we have new fans who are listening, um, you should, I feel that the track surface at Vegas

right now doesn't encourage a heck of a lot of tire wear. So the type of tire that Goodyear

is going to bring is going to be designed to shed a bit of rubber. Um, so look for a much higher

tire pressures at Phoenix. I'm sorry, at Las Vegas. Then we saw at Phoenix, um, instead of 30 psi

on the right front, probably look for something as high as 45 or 50 psi even on the right front.

So I don't think we'll see the sort of tire and watch this come back and bite me in the button.

If it does, hold me to it. I will. I'll remember this. If we have a lot of tire problems at Las

Vegas. So just those statistics, I think that, uh, I think the 22 or the five is a pretty good bet

for this week. Also, um, best wishes to the 48 driver. Uh, he is out of the car again for this, uh,

um, race coming up. Justin Allgaier is going to sub in for Alex Bowman again, because he's

a different driver in the 48 is no good. Let's do not mess with that stuff. You know, he's right

to set it out. We talked about this last week, you know, I mean, there was so many, there's

difference in all things. Yes. You got to push through sometimes and, um, you know, make sure

you get the job done, et cetera, but don't mess with vertigo. Don't mess with concussions, right?

It's your head, right? You know, with all of these other cars around,

right? And to be clear, concussions and vertigo can be completely separate things,

but, uh, you don't want to be in anything that's pulling high Gs high G forces, like a race car,

because it'll be hard to, um, I've never experienced vertigo, but if you get dizzy,

I've been dizzy with all been dizzy. Um, if you get dizzy, you know, at speed, it might be kind

of hard to see where you're going and that can cause a problem. You know, so, uh, take it slow

if you're Alex Bowman, take it slow and, uh, take some time off, figure out what the issue is.

And, you know, we initially thought it was heat, there's heat related issues in Austin,

but now obviously myself and maybe the vertigo is, is a lingering effect from that. Who knows,

but I'm not a doctor and I don't want to pretend that I am. But, um, you know, if vertigo is an

issue, then take some time and recover before you get back into the race car, because even

on the bank tracks, you're pulling a lot of Gs and, you know, you just really can't, uh,

um, you can't just, you just can't drive a race car very well when you're, when you're having

a hard time seeing where you're going. So big time. And may I say shout out to our new, uh,

point structure. I'm digging this again. This is great. I haven't dug into it that far yet,

because we're still so early in the season. None of this winning your in stuff. You know,

you've got people who are out there still making points, right? I mean, Tyler, he is 60 points

ahead, but a string of bad races can, can scupper someone's season pretty quickly. So it keeps people

digging and I was watching the other day, Brad, Brad, Brad keselowski. I mean, I'm sure he does

like bread. Um, keselowski was talking about how this, you know, type of format is great because

he often experienced in that, you know, big team of, of, uh, of RFK that once he was into

the points, once he was into the playoffs, um, the incentive wasn't there to give him the best

engine, right? In the, in the shop, uh, because they were trying to get another car into the

playoffs. So I like it. I mean, I'm glad we have this point structure for 2026.

Yeah. And we'll talk more about that as the season advances, but for that, uh, excuse me,

with that for now, we're going to head and close out our, our, close out our NASCAR talk here on

this week's truth about cars podcast. So once again, thank you to our listeners and thank you,

Matthew. Thank you for having me. The cars first, you'll find that eBay are just different.

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That's all for the truth about cars podcast. I am Tim Healy, the managing editor, and you can find

us wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find us online at TTC.com. That's T tech.com or

the truth about cars all spelled out.com. We thank Jeff Bartlett for consumer reports and

T tech contributor Matthew guy for their time and Matt Poskey for editing. Most of all,

we thank you for listening. We'll see you next time.

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