Best Used EVs, Renting with Turo + Sixt, Rivian Reliability + Owner Satisfaction

Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode. I'm Mike Monticello. I'm John Williams. And

I'm Aubrey Wischegrod. So today, back by popular demand is another one of our all questions

all the time episodes. And that means instead of talking about a specific vehicle that we

drove recently, we're going to dig deep into the CR mailbag and answer some of the very best

questions we've gotten from me folks recently. And speaking of those questions, the best way to get

them to us is to text the questions, comments, video clips, the talkingcarsaticloud.com. And

remember to kind of like a more incentive to give you an amazing question. If we use the question

on the show, one of our producers will send you some CR branded swag. So that's pretty neat.

So with that, let's dive right into the questions. And the first one comes from Shad from Wichita,

Kansas. And Shad says, my wife and I are currently in the market for compact SUV. We like our current

2020 Subaru Forester. So we are strongly considering a new Forester Hybrid. While listening to your

podcast about it, one complaint was that it doesn't do simulated upshifts since it uses the guts of

the Toyota Hybrid system. Our current Forester does simulate it upshifts, and I cannot figure out

why it is considered a good thing. Since a CVT or ECVT can both can dial in a gear ratio,

shouldn't either be able to be tuned to keep the engine RPMs down while accelerating? Or is this

a case where a lot of drivers are used to the upshifts and feel better when they can sense the

car shifting even if it is just simulated? I mean, it's an excellent question. And actually,

we do get quite a lot of comments with people sort of disagreeing with our opinions that are

feeling that we typically like simulated upshifts. So, John, I'm going to send this to you first.

What's your response here, basically? Yeah, well, it is a really great question, Shad. And like you

said, Monty, we do get a lot of comments saying like, oh, I can't stand simulated upshifts or

I really like them. So it is kind of something that splits people's opinions, right? The reality,

you kind of touched on it in the last part of your question, Shad, is why the manufacturers do

it is really, it's less about efficiency. In fact, it's probably less efficient to do these simulated

upshifts, but it's more about providing a more pleasant experience for the driver. So if you

think about a lot of these hybrid systems, most of them have smaller four cylinder engines that

don't make a ton of power on their own, right without the assistance of the electric motors

in the hybrid system. So as you said, CVTs can dial in a gear ratio, but we can't fight physics,

right? The reality is that a tiny engine has to rev out pretty high to make enough power at

highway speeds to accelerate and things like that. So simulated shifts are really about keeping

the RPMs lower. We're letting them climb a little bit so that we can make that power

to accelerate, but we're not leaving them at 6, 7,000 RPM like the Toyota system does.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I couldn't agree more. We call it quite often like a rubber banding

sensation. And if anyone who's ever ridden a snowmobile or has heard of snowmobile, that's

what they do, right? The RPMs are constantly going up and down with even just a small increase in

throttle or decrease in throttle is going to change the revs. And there's a discordancy,

that's probably not a word, but let's say discordancy anyway, between your gas pedal pressure

and how high the revs go up and also then sometimes the lack of acceleration, right?

And I think that's what we find annoying. If you're on a really long, moderately steep climb,

that CVT or ECVT, even though they're kind of different, but us ECVT operates very similar to

a continuously variable transmission, you end up with these sustained high revs that is just

kind of annoying, especially because a lot of these little four cylinders are kind of

don't sound that great. So what they're trying to do, especially like a company like Honda with

their hybrid system, they do these simulated upshifts purely to bring the revs back down,

so it's more palatable, right? Yeah, I think it's all about just breaking up the monotony,

right? Especially you see this a lot in the Toyota hybrid systems where

you give it just a little bit of gas and the RPMs just fly up. And Toyota is as far as I

know, don't do any simulated upshifts. So in some ways, it's nice to see it on the Subaru,

but to John's point, it doesn't really make the car more efficient, probably makes it less

efficient. And it really comes down to preference, right? Yeah. And I think like you said,

Aubrey, it's a preference thing. And it's important to point out that well, a lot of us

here at the track do prefer them. It's not something that directly affects our scoring.

We're not going and looking at does a car do simulated upshifts, we're going to add points,

we're going to take points away, that kind of thing. It's really the results of what those

simulated upshifts do or don't do that impacts the score. So for instance, a car that does not do

them that really lets the RPMs climb and stay really high, that might negatively impact its

noise score. If like you said, Monty, it has that kind of gritty engine character that you're

listening to for a long time. And kind of the opposite is true to a car that does simulated

upshifts. If it does them kind of rough, we might actually take transmission points away.

Which does happen sometimes. It does. Yep. Okay. Cool. All right. Well,

hopefully that answers the question. Let's move on to our next one from Joe. Joe says,

regarding your ratings for Rivian EVs, why is there such a big discrepancy between consumer

satisfaction and overall reliability? That is, it has terrible reliability, but owners seem to

love them. One would think they would go hand in hand. I think it's a super interesting question.

And I would almost call it an interesting phenomenon. And I say that because we see this

sometimes in our auto surveys that we do every year, where there are some vehicles that have

poor reliability, yet they have high owner satisfaction scores. And I was talking to

one of our data analysts, Steve Alec, friend of the podcast. And he said,

it's really owner satisfaction is mostly about whether a vehicle meets expectations, right?

So if you buy a Rivian for the character, the novelty, the driving range or the cool factor,

the vehicle is definitely delivered to what the owners are looking for. Sure. And he thinks right

now, a lot of people, this is just his theory, are buying Rivians, aren't expecting strong

reliability. They know it's a pretty new company with new vehicles. So if there are some problems,

it's not typically going to hurt their owner satisfaction scores that they give versus say

a Toyota or a Lexus, where you expect good reliability. And if you don't, you're going to

be kind of upset, right? Yeah. Yeah. And to your point, like if you buy a Toyota and it's not

reliable, well, that just goes in the face of the reason you bought it in the first place.

Right. You're expecting that. You're expecting it. But if you, I guess if you buy a new car

from a new manufacturer, maybe you do expect it to have some problems. And that's fine,

because you didn't buy it for the reliability. Yeah. And if you, I looked at some of the

quotes of verbatims, as we call them from our survey, from some Rivian owners, and I'm just

going to read a couple, because they're really interesting, like how much they love these vehicles,

all right. So this is from an owner of a 2022 R1T. So that's the pickup.

They say it's fun, versatile, uncomfortable, incredible storage, amazing acceleration,

and it's nice looking. I mostly charge at home and never stop at gas stations except to use

the bathroom. No maintenance except I will need new tires. An owner of a 2024 R1S, the SUV says

it does everything and has limitless power and manners on the road and capabilities and snow

and off road or beyond belief. We love just charging it at home. And the last one is a

2025 R1T. This owner says the 2025 R1T is the absolute best all around vehicle that I've ever

owned even better than my previous 2022 Rivian R1T. The vehicle is a near perfect amalgam of

comfort, utility, performance, efficiency, and environmental responsibility. Wow. What do you

think about that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense, right? Why they're giving them high owners

satisfaction scores. Yeah. Their vehicles really are unique when you think about it too, right?

Like the truck has that gear storage tunnel that I don't know of another EV that has anything like

that. It has kind of all these features geared towards people who love going outside and going

on all these adventures. They do market them as adventure vehicles, right? So it's kind of not

just necessarily an image thing, but also all the features that they offer and yeah, reliability

doesn't tell the whole story. Yeah. They also, I mean, they handle pretty well and they're really

fast trucks. Yeah. Are they the fastest pickup trucks? They might be. Well, especially too,

if you're coming from a regular gas powered car and getting into a Rivian, it's, yeah. Oh, yeah.

You're blown away, right? Comparison. Yeah. Yeah. So it's an interesting phenomenon. It makes sense.

It's a little odd. It's both, it makes sense and it's odd at the same time that you would. Is this

kind of like the Wrangler thing? 100%. That's actually what he called it. He called it,

as Steve called it, the Jeep Wrangler effect is what he called it because the Wrangler has been

notoriously unreliable for a long time. And they haven't changed in a long time.

Haven't changed in a long time. People love them. The owners love them, right? And we know they're

unreliable and they don't care because they love their vehicle. And again, I think there's a little

bit of an image thing there, right? They like and I'm not picking on their owners, but they love,

that they drive Jeeps. That's why they put those little yellow ducks all over the, right?

Or park up on a curb. Or park up on a curb. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let's move on to

another question. This one is from Robert and Robert says, thanks for doing the show.

I listened to all the episodes. Not quite sure if you guys are true EV folks yet.

Do any of you own one personally? But I would be curious as to your thoughts on a couple of EV

choices. My wife is looking to get an EV. She has a thrice weekly commute of 100 miles round

trip and average is about 20,000 miles per year. We did not intend to, but ended up using our Ford

F-150 SR Lightning as a trip vehicle because it is so smooth and quiet. We are looking for something

with around a 300 mile range and a decent charging curve to use for her commute and also trips.

She's been drawn to Audi and Honda styling, looking used as that seems the best value in

the market, hoping to stay between $30,000 to $40,000. Avery, I'm going to put you on the spot.

All right. What's, what is your answer for Robert?

Well, Robert, good question. Looking used is definitely the right way to go right now.

Especially for EVs.

Yeah. Especially for EVs that the resale value absolutely craters.

I mean, we have sold some EVs for half of what we bought them for just a year later.

Yeah. Sad.

So it's a good value for the used market, but certainly a reason maybe not to buy a new one.

As far as, you know, between Honda and Audi, well, Honda currently only has one EV, the prologue,

and it's not really a Honda. It's a GM, right? It's the GM Altium architecture underneath.

It's very similar to the Blazer EV Cadillac Lyric, and the reliability has not been very good on

these. Certainly the 2024 models were the least reliable. They got a little bit better in 25 and

26, but they still don't do very well in our surveys for reliability.

There's also some rumors that the prologue is going to be discontinued at the end of this year.

I haven't seen any official word on that, but it seems likely given what's going on in the EV market.

So I would be a little bit cautious about buying a car that might be discontinued and has poor

reliability. As far as the Audis go, there's a few used options that might be worth considering.

The 2024 Q8 e-tron has an EPA range of 285 miles. We didn't test the range on this, but generally

with the other Audi EVs that we've tested, they tend to go around their EPA range if not a little

bit longer. So you should be good for your 300-mile commute there. The 24 you can pick up for between

30,000 to 40,000. It also has a fairly good reliability score, 67 out of 100 in our surveys.

Another one to consider, and this surprised me even, the Q6 e-tron, which just came out last year,

you can already pick up a 25 model for around 35 to 55, which is like a 20 to 30,000 savings

over when it was brand new. This one has an EPA range of 295. It achieved 285 miles in our 70

highway range test. But one thing to keep in mind, its reliability score isn't quite as good as the

Q8. But I would say between the Hondas and the Audis, the Audis are going to perform better and be

quieter. So that's something to consider as well. Yeah. And to that end, if you either don't mind

spending a little more money or waiting another year or so, we actually kind of preferred the

A6 e-tron over the Q6 e-tron. Different form factor. But yeah, you'd be hard pressed to

you'd be lucky to get one in the low $40,000 range right now. So it's a little out of the price

range, but we just, it is more of a sleek kind of vehicle than the Q6 is more like an SUV.

But we did prefer generally the driving experience of the A6. That's a good point.

A little better ride, but you're going to have to pay more right now. So yeah, that's kind of why

I left it out just because it came out after the Q6. I couldn't find any for under like $45,000.

But give it a month, give it two months. You might find it under $40,000. Absolutely. Okay.

Let's move on. Go ahead, please. I was going to throw one more option in there. So not an Audi

or Honda, but where you're already coming from the Ford F-150 Lightning, I think another option

potentially worth considering will be a Mustang Mach-E. So that car got a little bit lower of a

road test score compared to the Audi Q4 e-tron, which is kind of the same size SUV, but it got better

owner satisfaction in our surveys and also better reliability verdicts than the Q4. It has the 300

mile range that you're looking for. And because you're coming from the Lightning, a lot of the

controls, especially the screen are going to be really similar. So you're not going to have to go

and learn all of Audi's convoluted controls. Yeah. Glad I didn't completely cut you off there.

That was a good point. All right. Let's move on to Gordon from Atlanta, Georgia.

Gordon says, is or was there a standard for the placement of turn signal lenses on the rear of

vehicles? I have noticed that several manufacturers have moved the amber or red turn signals from the

main rear taillight cluster to the bumper. I find this annoying. It moves your line of sight downward

and if the car gets rear-ended, you lose your working turn signals, which are now cracked and

broken inside the damaged rear bumper. Also, if you are in bumper to bumper traffic, you may not

be able to see the activated turn signal, which you can't cannot see. Change is not always a good

thing. So the answer is there is a regulation for this. And if you go to the Federal Motor Vehicle

Safety Standard 49 CFR 571.108, or as I like to refer to it, Title 49, Subtitle B, Chapter 5,

Part 571, Subcars B. That's how I remember it. Yeah. I mean, that's... I knew it was in there.

Yeah. It's hard to believe we get anything done in this country. Anyway, so what it specifies

for the automakers is that the turn signals have to be mounted not less than 15 inches

from the ground and not more than 83 inches. Did I say that right? They can't be lower than

15 inches from the ground and they can't be higher than 83 inches. 83 inches? Yeah. That's taller

than most cars. I know. I'm thinking maybe that's related to trucks. Yeah. There's some language in

there about semi-trucks as well. Oh, okay. That makes more sense. 15 inches. That's not that high.

No. That's pretty low. But totally get the point of... You do see these... There's a few cars out

there that do have the turn signals and the bumpers. That doesn't make any sense other than from

maybe a styling standpoint, but bumpers get hit. Yeah. Why would you take a chance on that?

Another part of it is that I think part of maybe that standard or similar standard is the turn

signals have to remain visible if the tailgate or trunk is open. So if you have your hazards on

and you're parked on the side of the highway, they still have to be visible. So in some cases,

if the manufacturers choose to style the car with the tail lights on the hatch or tailgate,

they have to move the signals downward or out of the way. Yeah. Okay. So that's another reason.

Yeah. Interesting. Okay. But yeah, I mean, there's a few very common cars that do this.

What do we got? We got the Hyundai Kona and Tucson and the Kia Sportage and Carnival.

And the Hyundai Santa Fe doesn't really have them in the bumper, but its whole

tail light assembly is so low on the rear of the vehicle that they may as well be.

So it kind of seems like there's a common offender here. Yeah. We won't name names.

No. But you were going to say something. Yeah. No, I think that

as long as that freedom is there, manufacturers are always going to prioritize styling. That's

the one thing that is going to lure someone to look at the car in the first place. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. They care less, unfortunately, about your concerns here and our shared concerns and more

about, yeah, let's make it look good. Yeah. All right. Next up, we have a video question. And,

you know, I've said it before, but we do love the video questions because we love to see your

smiling faces, love to see who's talking to us. And we love sometimes people, you know, get a little

creative with the backgrounds. And in this case, we have a video from Daniel in Jackson, Tennessee,

who looks to be sitting in a Nissan Aria. So let's see what Daniel is talking about today.

I was wondering, do you think that the supply chain issues for petrol will encourage GM to

extend the limited run on the Equinox EV? The Equinox EV is getting really high marks for battery,

longevity, range, affordability, ease of use. And it's kind of a surprise.

It's again, like the EV1, a pity if they take it out of the market too soon. What do you think?

All right. So Daniel has some points and some questions about the Equinox EV. John, what are

your answers? Yeah. Well, first off, Daniel, thanks for the question. Can totally understand

your concerns about EVs being discontinued, especially because it does look like you are

coming to us from a discontinued in the US market EV, the Nissan Aria. And also totally

hear you on your concerns as far as how the global economy might be potentially influencing

manufactured decisions. That said, we haven't heard anything definite from any credible source

that the Equinox EV is being discontinued. It seems like it's a pretty high volume seller right now

for GM as far as EVs go. So we would hope that they'll continue it for a little bit longer.

And you're absolutely right that it did do a lot of things well in our testing. Had a comfortable

ride, really smooth powertrain. It's generally easy to live with other than a few usability quirks.

I think that's kind of one of the big things for me is that it's nice. So many EVs, it seems like

they try and put a bunch of newfangled either controls or odd door handles or just too many

weird things that make living with them a little more difficult than they have to be.

But in general, it's pretty easy to drive. And the controls are

the same as any other GM from the last couple of years.

And it is worth mentioning too that right now of those shared GM Honda platform EVs,

it has the best reliability of the bunch, not saying it has good reliability, but it has currently

our data shows it having average reliability, whereas the others are all below average. So

we'll see if that changes as we get more data on it. But for now, it's another positive for it.

So maybe not a bad way for Daniel to go if he's thinking about that and or may not have to jump

on it right now either, because it looks like it might be around for a little while at least.

Yeah, I would think so. Okay. All right. And we have another video question this time from

Andrew from Connecticut. Let's hear what Andrew was asking us today.

Thanks, guys. Great show.

All right. So that background looks eerily similar to something I've walked through recently. Maybe

you guys have as well. Andrew looks a little familiar. He does pull my finger on it. But

I do like his hairdo. Okay. And to be fair, Andrew is one of our video producers and it

really is a legitimate question that he is wondering about. So we need to do our very best

for our coworker to answer this question. So John, do you want to go first?

Sure. Yeah, I mean, he's absolutely right that the where they get you with the rental categories

is the or similar, right? But everybody knows a Buick is nowhere close to a Mustang, but that's

what poor Andrew got stuck with. So with the categories, I mean, I would say, especially

if you're going to go with a sedan, you want to start with at least an intermediate or full size

either of those categories, because otherwise you will be stuck with something small, even

if you just pick like small sedan, they might throw you down to a compact and then you're stuck,

you know, in a Nissan Versa or something like that, that you don't want to be in.

But yeah, I mean, with the categories, you really don't have that much room. That's just

kind of how these mainstream companies operate. So I mean, if he wants to spend the money,

he could jump up to the luxury category. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. So you knocked your iPad over.

But yeah, now these categories don't really allow you as the renter a lot of flexibility.

If Andrew wants to spend the money, he could step up to the luxury category and maybe get

something a little bit nicer. But as far as these larger corporate rental entities, you really don't

have much flexibility. Yeah. And Avery, what about a non-corporate rental entity? What do you,

I feel like you're going to talk about something interesting.

Yeah. So with the rental car agencies, you're renting a category, right? Like you said,

or similar is where they get you. But another option is to use an app like Turo,

where people are renting out their personal vehicles. So you're choosing a specific vehicle

in advance and you're going to coordinate with that person where and when you're going to pick

the vehicle up. And I've used it a few times myself. They have some interesting vehicles on

there. You can get some old Mercedes sports cars or you can rent a Ferrari and anything in between.

And it's a little bit cheaper, actually, usually than renting a car through a rental agency.

Yeah. And the way they're saving money is that they don't have the whole brick-and-mortar store,

and they're not set up in the airports. So sometimes it can be a little bit more work to

actually get the keys and get into the car. But if you want an interesting car for a vacation

or a road trip, it's something to consider. It's like the Airbnb of car rental, right?

And the funny thing about it, though, I mean, I think it's a really neat thing

that you can do. And I actually know a couple of people that have done it and had good experience

with it. I think maybe you guys would agree with me. If I wouldn't rent my nice car out to anyone

in a million years, would I let some stranger in my car? But all credit for these people for

doing it because it's good for the rest of us. I have another option for Andrew,

which is a company called, a rental car company called Sixth, S-I-X-T. And the benefit of them,

I mean, I've actually used this company when I was out in California, like maybe eight years ago,

and they kind of specialize in luxury vehicles. Sorry. This is so unstable. I just touch it.

He's going to re-engineer it, Dave. Don't worry. Next episode, he will have re-engineered it,

and it won't fall over anymore. Dave hates me right now.

Sorry for a few interruptions. Our engineer over there doesn't seem to know how to hold his

keep his iPad from falling over on the table. So it's not a car. No, it's not a car. Yeah.

Anyway, so one thought I have for Andrew is to use a rental car company called Sixth, S-I-X-T.

I have used them when I was out in California, maybe eight years ago or something,

and they kind of specialize in more higher-end cars, luxury vehicles, German manufacturers.

In this case, I rented a Cadillac CT6, and the price was reasonable, considering what I got,

and the car was really nice. I mean, the CT6 back then was a nice car, but it was like,

you didn't feel like you were in a rental car. I think maybe they take better care of their vehicles,

or maybe they're just because they're better vehicles. And so I think that is a way to go as

well. Fiddle around with, don't just do one of the regular rental car companies where you

are going to get stuck with something that maybe you don't want to. And when you go with a company

like Sixth, you're going to get a good car or go with Turro and get the exact vehicle that you want,

right? Yeah, I think those are both great options for Andrew. Yeah. Okay, so that's going to do it

for this episode. If you want to learn more about the topics and the vehicles that we talked about,

you can click on the links in the show notes. Don't forget to send those questions,

comments, videos to TalkingCars at iCloud.com. And one last thing before we go, just want to remind

people that Consumer Reports is a nonprofit organization. You'll notice we don't have any

ads on our website or in our magazine. So one of the ways we make do, keep the lights on,

is through donations. Remember, unlike most automotive media outlets, we buy all of the vehicles

that we test, right? And it costs a lot of money. So we do have a donate button if you're watching

us on YouTube. And so you could help us out, support our cause to test cars, and to tell you

exactly how it is without any biases. So donations are part of how we keep this going. So thanks in

advance. Also, as always, our podcast was produced by Dave Abrams and edited by Andrew

Belize in Anatoly Shumsky. Thanks so much for watching, and we'll see you all next week.

Best Used EVs, Renting with Turo + Sixt, Rivian Reliability + Owner Satisfaction

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owner satisfaction vs reliability discrepancy

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