Enthusiasts Have Ruined Cars, What Do Driving Coaches Drive, The Goldilocks Car | Episode 1,012

Welcome back to the podcast everybody.

We are back with a lot of stuff, tons of

news, a huge topic Tuesday, a classic

topic Tuesday. What I mean by that is we

are not going to come to conclusions,

>> but there's going to be a lot of

discussion. It's going to be great. I

honestly under the premise and we've

already talked about it in the title,

I'm sure, the premise that I think we

enthusiasts might be ruining it for

everybody. I think we might be I think

we just might be ruining it for all of

us. I I'm a little worried about that,

but that's that's the topic Tuesday

coming up. Of course, car debates, car

conclusions, some of your really great

questions. We have all of that. You and

I are up because we just got back from

our Beartooth adventure.

>> Yeah.

>> Weather was perfect. Great line of cars,

Skittles, colors,

>> incredible footage. We actually filmed

it for Power Stop, which was really

cool. They wanted us to kind of do a a

day in the life piece. Like, what do you

guys really do? And we thought, you know

what? Our adventures really are what we

do. I mean, we do all these great car

films we love. We shot the Beartooth

adventures. So, later on in the year,

I'm going to save it. I'm going to save

it till it's snowy. So,

>> so we can really go. That's what happens

when driving season comes. That's going

to be coming. It's really cool. But we

should dive into news. And we should

start with Porsche news. Do you want to

start with Porsche news?

>> Let's start with Porsche News.

>> Okay, we'll start with Porsche News.

>> It is the new 911 Turbo S, everyone.

>> Even though most of the cars are

turbocharged now, but

>> yes,

>> the

>> this is the more turbo than the rest of

the turbos, apparently. I don't know.

>> It's the most turbo that's ever turboed

in the history of turbos. Yes, it's the

super turbo

>> because it's the T hybrid technology

that we drove in the Carrera GTS T

hybrid.

>> Yes.

>> Well, there's a a motor inside the turbo

and then a motor inside the PDK and it

eliminates turbo lag. Let's just

>> call it what it is. That's the thinking.

Yes,

>> turbo lag is gone. So now, as we

thought, there's two of these special

turbos with motors in the turbo and so

it keeps it spinning so there's no turbo

lag, but it also acts as a regenerative

force. a generator to add electricity to

the tractive battery.

>> And it's even faster. It is the most

powerful 911

ever.

>> 71

horsepower, 14 seconds quicker than the

last Turbo S around the ring. I Yeah.

Yes. Well, I

>> 14 is not nothing.

>> I've read two things. I've read 711.

I've also read a 701. But the point is

either way it is it is a it is the most

it's it's a handful of horsepower more

than the GT2 RS which was

>> it's incremental. Correct.

>> It is incremental and and and the thing

I think is so funny and we're going to

come back to this in a minute but very

impressive. Also arguably more

horsepower than any 911 needs even

though Porsche manages it. The other

thing about Porsche horsepower in the

911 is

>> what seems two or 30 hundred horsepower

down on all their competitors feels

every bit as quick.

>> They always have a tendency to do that.

It feels like, well, that's not as big

as anybody else's number, but the the

amazing quickness they get out of this

car,

>> but

I I I actually almost feel the engineers

scratching their head with the big

headline over their brains that this

turbo must on paper be better than the

last. and better than any Porsche prior.

I mean, you can feel them checking the

box here, I feel like, because honestly,

does this need to be need I realize is a

weird question, but does this need to be

the most powerful 911 ever? I would

argue no, but you can't have one that's

less than the last one unless it got

lighter,

>> as we discussed with the problem with

Porsche.

>> Yes. They released a video for the press

launch

>> and what I noticed this was hosted by

Patrick Dempsey and Patrick is a

professional actor so he kept the cheese

factor to a minimum which I really

appreciated

>> in spite of the scripts he was giving.

I'll make this work.

>> If you haven't seen it, I'm going to

ruin it for you. But it is actually

worth a watch because he's in Vice and

he walks around the factory and meets

all of the heads of the departments of

the people who were in charge of this

car and created this wonderful tech,

this wonderful car. So he meets them and

it would stop on their photo, you know,

as they're shaking hands and in their

name, you know, big bold letters of

their name and their department title.

And so Jason Fensky was also in the

video. I also

>> hearing explained, yes,

>> I noted that he was the only nonPoria

employee

>> in the video.

>> Good for Jason. It's really cool.

>> Fantastic. But I love that Porsche has

leaned into that and embraced the

YouTube element of what car launches do

for YouTube, do for every car

manufacturer. And so they would, you

know, like I said, head of department,

you know, or here's the name, what their

department title is. So he Patrick comes

around the corner. He's sick of hearing

about the tech specs. He wants to drive

it clearly and he's sort of hamming it

up for the camera

>> and it says Jason Fensky, whiteboard

enthusiast. And you know what? That's

the most accurate term I could ever.

really leaned into it and it was really

entertaining. Jason was great. He was

self-deprecating. He was funny.

>> He had great facial expressions. And

then Patrick, of course, got to go for a

ride with York

>> Bergmeister.

>> And then they traded cars. And it was

actually well done, well produced. And

and Patrick, of course, you you can

sense you're being paid. You're trying

to say all the cool things and pretend

you're paying attention to the tech that

they're explaining to you.

>> I'm sure everything was done in only one

take. There were never more than one

take. It was all Yeah. Just completely

off the cuff. But it was the car is

astounding.

>> And I think here's where we're at now.

>> Mhm.

>> What's in the future for the 911? The

911 will never go away.

>> True. Yeah.

>> To get better for the king of the 911s

that isn't a GT car.

>> It has to always be more incrementally

more. So it wasn't like 8 or 900 or

1,000 horsepower this go around, but

we're headed to that pinnacle in that

direction.

>> That's that's the craziness. So the next

one after this, the next Turbo S will be

800, 900 or at least 725. They have to

go more. They can't they can't go less.

This is where I'm actually going to

applaud Mazda,

>> who when they went to the fourth

generation MX5,

the horsepower and torque numbers went

down, but the car got smaller. That may

be the only brand I can think of who

defiantly went, we could go down. I

wonder if this pinnacle car and it's

more more more more better better faster

faster faster. It's the most amazing

better better but to go forward I think

they're going to have to go backwards.

We've covered it ad nauseium but it's

going to have to maybe be less and be

lighter and that's

>> the direction for the future of sports

cars is lighter weight especially as

electrification happens. It's kind of

going backwards for weight to go

forwards for the next level of

performance. I agree. And and as we talk

about more more more, I'm going to use

this to pivot to our next news item, but

I have to also point this out. This is a

911. It's a Porsche 911. Now, that we've

talked about this before, that has

always been like the every man's

aspirational supercar. This car at the

base version of the Turbo, not the Turbo

S, is over $200,000.

And the no extras added Turbo S, I

forgot, is $285,000.

So, this has got a $100,000 almost

because you know when you add extras to

it, you can break 300 with this car. If

it's 285 before you added extras, you

can break 300. So, this is a

>> this is close to 400 with all the extras

that you're going to actually really

want.

>> This is the Porsche Turbo model now has

a $100,000 swing by itself

and it is well over 200 grand. You're

never going to see one of these for

under about 230. It's just not going to

happen. If 208 is the you could get a

turbo, it's going to be 230 and up for a

911. Very impressive and will have no

doubt plenty of buyers.

But this means that the upper spec 911,

>> yes,

>> not the GT car, mind you, is now a

quarter million dollar car before you

tried hard.

>> Easy. I think it was the last goound,

but still

>> easy.

>> Speaking of crazy money and crazy

numbers, you've also seen the Ferrari

launch, right?

>> The Ferrari

>> is back. I'm so glad you chose that

photo instead of red

>> or any other color.

>> Yeah, it was a Ferrari photo. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

>> The Tessterosa has returned.

>> On one hand, I am bummed that it's based

on a slight derivation of the SF90,

which I don't have too much respect for

because everyone we've ever tried to get

has broken.

>> Well, but we honestly have heard not

good things in the Ferrari community

about the SF90. This replaces that. This

is the new flagship Ferrari. So, it's

the the the return of the SF, pardon me,

return of the Tessterosa. What? It's

it's actually like the 839 or whatever,

but 849. Yes. Thank you. So, this is the

return of the amazing Tessterosa name.

Notice there's no side strikes on this,

but anyway, because we're way past the

80s, but I'm just saying

>> I have thoughts on that.

>> Okay, please.

>> I think that everybody doesn't like this

because there's no typical 80s side

strikes. And I am willing to bet

breakfast, a croissant, and a

cappuccino. Okay.

that that entire design department

unilaterally agreed from the outset, the

redesign, we're not going to do side

strikes. We're not even going to go

there. We're not going backwards. We're

not going to

>> hearken back. We're not going to do any

retro. We're not going to It's going to

be its own thing. Now, again,

>> the SF90, I don't know that that was the

best place to start,

>> but no side strikes. They've left it

open to future interpretation. But that

Tessterosa, the 84 85 was not the first

Tessterosa.

>> True.

>> The 500 TR from the late 50s. That was

actually the first Tessterosa. And the

57 and 58 Tessterosa, those didn't have

side strikes from the typical '8s. That

was just a phase introduced in the

styling language that permeated that era

of Ferrari.

>> It's very much an 80s.

>> So to call the Tessterosa, well, it only

has the vents, the side strikes, that's

not true. And therefore this styling in

my mind is completely valid especially

after reading their new design

direction. They are as designers Flavio

Menzone says it's our obligation to

create something futuristic and new but

>> compelling and Flavio called this a

mixture of sculpture and architectural

forms and graphics

>> which I really appreciate it. And the

more I look at it the more I really like

it.

>> I think it does look

>> I think it's fantastic. I think it's

superb. If they had just said, "We redid

the SF90 and made it reliable." I would

have cheered them.

>> I hope that's what this means.

>> Wow.

>> We came up with a new one. It's called

the Tessterosa. We didn't do anything

except make it reliable.

>> Well, I think everybody would have been

like, "Good. We're done."

>> What's crazy, I was looking at the

prices on this. The SF90 was a million

dollar car.

This is about a $600,000 car, which by

the way, on one level, still absurd.

>> It's no money,

>> but that's a big discount. The SF90 was

a millionoll car. This is like a

$600,000 car. I also want to say we have

a guy here locally that comes to the

Park City Cars and Coffee every now and

then with an 80s Tessterosa

>> that he has made black

>> and it's taken out the side strike. So,

it creates this this teardrop vent in

the side with no strakes in the middle.

And I have to say it makes that car

timeless. not as iconic because with the

strakes in the side it is iconic but

with the strakes taken out which is

obviously if you ever looked at at a

Tessterosa from the 80s you can see it

as an inserted piece like bolted to the

back he took it out created this

teardrop vent which is gorgeous actually

and I think makes the car like it could

have been made anytime you want

fascinated the Tessterosa name is back

here that this is the new flagship from

Ferrari that is intriguing they're

talking about again it is a it is a twin

turbo V8 with electrification

what is the stat it's a 1000 something

horsepower 1,036 horsepower. So the old

SF90 was only 1,000 horsepower if you

can yeah manage I mean and this is allhe

drive

>> so 819 horsepower twin turbo V8 three

electric motors 8-speed dual clutch and

a 20% increase in aerodynamic downforce

compared to the prior SF90. I never like

that name. Tessterosa is a great name.

>> Of course it is. Yes. And I like that

you showed this. And the reason is from

a styling perspective, this is almost

body and white.

>> So you can see sculpture and graphics

separate in your mind. If it's not a

color, I mean, silver, but if it's not

really a color, because you're you're

first influenced by color. But I

actually love what they've done

>> to go back to architectural forms,

beautiful slab sides that actually do

kind of hearken back to the 80s.

>> It's a beautiful form. And then graphics

painted on And as a side note, we have

some very good friends, friends of the

show, fans of the show who have lent

their Portoino M to many people on our

trips. They are just,

>> we covered it during the COD trip. We

did cover this was that green Portoino.

So,

>> it's one thing for us to drive cars and

review them at that moment in time.

Sure. And have that impression.

>> It's an entirely different thing to live

with them.

>> True. You're very true. So they have

currently uh ended the beartooth trip

and they have traveled home briefly and

left their Portoino M with me.

>> Ah so I am currently living with a

Ferrari.

>> I'm sorry.

>> And it's exhausting to

>> we're all crying with Paul. We're just

ah living with a Ferrari.

>> Sigh. Yeah.

>> The reason I bring this up is simply

because

>> I I'm trying to imagine the

>> the separation and on one hand there's

>> somebody owns it. We're looking at it.

You have an opinion.

>> Sure. Of course.

>> It's another thing to you've been

granted access to drive a Ferrari as a

journalist or as a special whoever you

are and you've been granted access and

you have that drive

>> and you've got that impression. It's an

entirely different thing to live with a

Ferrari.

>> True. Yes. And I've kind of forgotten

that I'm driving a Ferrari.

>> Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

>> I'm doing my thing. I'm driving with

purpose, with precision. I'm, you know,

moving moving ahead.

>> And everybody's misbehaving around me.

Trucks are trying to roll up on me hot.

I'm like, "What are you do?"

>> Oh, right.

>> I am in a Ferrari.

>> Right. Right.

>> That's true. Yes.

>> And I'm coming up behind somebody. I'm

like, "What are you doing, you

come on, you idiot. You're

Why are you so slow? Why aren't you

taking this corner fast?" you know, why

are you wandering in the lane? Why

aren't you driving with precision and

focus and purpose and come on? Oh, yeah.

You're not in a Ferrari.

It's the strangest, you know, strangest

thing. But the car has been reliable. It

runs. It feels great. It's a It's a

great GT car.

>> Mhm.

>> I just happen to forget it costs as much

as it does.

>> Yes.

>> But it's easy to live with. It's just

everybody else is freaking out. And it's

a Portotheino. It's not even a Tessteros

or an 80 and my love has grown for

Ferrari and it's the SF90

>> didn't impress me.

>> You were not a fan

>> notwithstanding

lot of people that weren't fans

honestly. Yes.

>> But then the Portoino M. It just the

thing just runs. It's ready to go. It

feels robust with high mileage on it.

>> Put a ton of miles on it in a short

period of time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> And this comes out. I love the styling.

I'm endlessly impressed with the tech in

the F80. And I want an Amalfi like you

wouldn't believe. I absolutely just want

it. I'm going to make a prediction.

We've had this happen sometimes on the

podcast. What's wrong with me?

>> Where where we say things and you guys

when you go back and listen to the back

catalog go, do you know that you said

this that we ended up coming true? So,

I'm going to put it out here right now.

I think it is a matter of time until

somehow you add some sort of Ferrari to

your fleet because the because I have

watched over the past few years as your

love for Italian cars has steadily grown

and your interest in Ferrari has started

to kind of bubble up alongside your

interest in Porsche. Now I know this is

not your your budgetary level but your

your interest has started to kind of

become equivalent. you started to become

a guy who really needs a Ferrari in your

life. And that is a crazy sentence. And

I here's here's the reason I put it out

there is because I am wondering if at

some point in the future somebody's

going to be like, "So I listened to this

old episode and you were talking about

you were make call in the shot. Paul's

going to have a Ferrari and now he

does." I don't know if it'll ever

happen, but I see the interest in you

rising. It's very funny. I

>> It's a weird thing to admit and observe

and

>> Yeah. Yeah. What a privilege to be able

to do this, to drive this car,

>> to drive it at all. Yes, I agree.

>> I mean, these these people are so

generous and endlessly gracious and

they've just they want people to drive

their car and they're happy to do it and

they've put a lot of miles on it. They

actually said that their local dealer

>> didn't had not ever changed the spark

plugs on a Portoino M because no

Portoino has ever had mileage high

enough to do that service. They didn't

even know how that we've talked about

this with dealers. Just because you go

to your dealer doesn't mean they know

what they're talking about.

>> Yeah. Because who would have driven one

enough? You bought a Portoino to put the

top down to go to Cars and Coffee and to

bring it home. Yes. And in 10 years,

you'll have, I don't know, 3,000 mi.

>> This one currently has just over 41,000

m on it,

>> and it's only a couple years old.

>> And it drives superbly well. It drives

new. It's robust. And so that that part

is impressing me. I think, okay, it

doesn't feel fragile. It doesn't feel

like it's going to break or, oo, I can't

>> drive it properly. It feels robust. I

think, okay, that means,

>> you know, that's part of where your

money's going.

>> Yeah.

>> But everybody's just losing their minds.

And I'm like, this is not even a crazy I

mean, it's a it's a Ferrari.

>> It's very expensive. It's more expensive

than the Porsche Turbo we just talked

about, but in the world of Ferrari, it

is like welcome to Ferrari, which is

crazy

>> kind of. Yeah. I I just I'm my mind is

blown. And And it's a precision. It just

It's very satisfying to drive. It's very

interesting and engaging and you know

purpose precision

>> and I can't believe the behavior of

people around me because it's just all

of those opinions and I am guilty of

that myself.

>> Sure.

>> You think whatever you're going to think

about the person driving that Ferrari

and how they got it and what you're

doing and who are you and you have all

those opinions and in my case none of

them are true. It's a friend's car.

>> This is I'm enjoying it.

>> It's like a loner of a loner. It's It's

like you're like two levels away from

it. Yeah.

>> Quite a privilege, but I can't be, you

know, timid. Oh,

>> don't hit me. Don't

>> drive it with purpose. Drive the car.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Drive it.

>> Amazing.

>> And it's robust. It feels great. I'm

impressed. I have great satisfaction,

interest, and hope for Ferrari. And I I

like the Tessterosa. I'm trying to say I

like the Tessterosa.

>> Yeah, you like Ferraris in general. And

And so the Tessterosa is back, everyone.

So, we have that. We have uh other bits

of news. Uh the Stalantis news.

Stellance is interesting cuz they keep

changing tactics. Okay. While GM jumped

both feet and I think maybe even head

first into EVs, Stellantis has like

eased its way in a running start.

>> Yeah, exactly. Killed killed things in

the process and of course they're doing

a lot of backpedaling right now talking

about V8s are going to be back. Hemis

are going to be back. But in the process

they have said um they just don't know

what's going to happen with their

electric pickup. I've heard, here's the

two thing. I've heard fully killed and

then I've also read it in like the next

paragraph will resurface in some other

way.

But it's just and and only bring it up

because it is

>> they're just leaving the door open for

themselves. That's all they're doing.

>> Exactly. It is the latest example of a

car maker having big EV plans and

looking at the market shift that's

happening right now and going maybe

later.

And they even they even mentioned

publicly. They even mentioned publicly

that they've watched the reception of

the lightning and the cybert truck and

that these were factors in their

decision-m Rivian selling like crazy.

>> Rivian is selling but but I I somewhat

it's selling. Yes.

>> I mean we're in a warped area because we

see them all the time.

>> You and I live in an area that for some

reason is practically sponsored by

Rivian. There are so many here. It's

mindboggling. When we take a trip to LA

it's amazing if we see a Rivian.

>> When we drive around our local area it's

like why don't I have a Rivian? because

everybody they're giving them out

apparently. So it depends on your area

for sure.

>> Did I miss the signup sheet? I sick. I

missed the signup sheet.

>> Where is it?

>> I was at here. Sorry, brief side note.

Little little family insider side note

here. So I just this past weekend

>> I was at a mountain bike race for my

son. Okay, so we went out of town couple

hours away. Went out of town. Two funny

things happened.

It was brought up again that the Park

City mountain bike team who already it

like has a huge footprint and it's the

Park City folks. So like the rich folks

showed up with their kids for mountain

biking. So we already have that

reputation. Some of the parents actually

for like psychout purposes want to lean

into that further. They want to be like

if we're going to if we're going to be

looked at as the bougie folks, let's get

a hot tub and a masseuse and let's just

throw down. There are some parents that

are just like if we're if we're going to

be looked down on for that anyway as

being the jerks. Let's just really psych

everybody out. But what I will say does

happen is sometimes in the pit zone

where you're not allowed to have

internal combustion engines, we have had

some parent park their Rivian to provide

power. So that's I am aware of how

ridiculous that sounds. This is not news

to me, but it's happened. But so that's

funny thing out of the mountain bike

team. But here's the other funny thing

and I have to point a finger right at me

that this happened.

>> The condo we rented, you see what

everybody drives

>> a couple condos down from us. I so

wanted to make fun of this family

because they had not one but two brand

new Pathfinders. One so new it still had

the dealer tag on it. Park to another

one that was just old enough to have a

license plate whose license plate was

finder on their Pathfinder.

>> Mhm. And I wanted to make fun of him.

>> Is the other one going to be path?

>> I I I don't know. I wanted to make fun

of him except for the fact that we're we

we're helping with the food for the

mountain bike teams. We had tons of

stuff to bring. Tons and tons and tons

of stuff. I more than you can imagine.

There's hundreds of kids on this team.

We have tons of food to haul.

>> Okay.

>> In addition to my wife and I and my

mother-in-law and my son. Okay. So, we

had a lot of stuff.

>> Oh, wow.

>> So, I wanted to make fun of this poor

man until I realized looking at our

condo that I'm I brought two black

Cayenne. So, I just I got nothing.

Fantastic.

>> I got I can't make fun of the poor man.

I have two Cayenne. Two black Cayenne

parked side by side.

>> What do you suppose they were saying?

The Pathfinder people. Like, can you

believe these people?

>> These folks must have come in from Park

City with two Cayenne.

>> So, I am that jerk. I'm willing to point

fingers at myself that has happened. In

other news, uh cars are for sale at

everyday driver. Your your GTS just

sold.

>> The GTS just sold. Yes. Congratulations

to Skyler and his buddy Sam came in and

they were in Florida. They came in to

buy the car and Yeah.

>> They had never been to Great Driving

Roads, been to the West, seen Utah. So,

they uh yeah, they were jaw-dropped.

They were trying to figure out plans to

move here already. And then uh I

actually recommended Million-Dollar

Highway because we love it so much.

>> They're driving back to Florida. They

stop. So, they were thinking about

dropping south. And I said, "Don't drop

south until you get through.

>> Go over to Grand Junction. Drop through

Gateway. Go down to, you know, through

Natita and wind your way." And they're

like, "Okay, when are they going to be

back here? They have to. You're driving

to Florida."

>> That's what they said. I I don't think

we're ever going to be back for a long

time.

guys, you've got to take the time to do

this. So, I haven't heard from him, but

very nice guys and yeah, Skyler bought

it and it's going to a new home in

Florida. So, I got the GT4 from Florida

and

>> this be nice if you combine those. But,

but those guys, honestly, Skyler got the

nicest 981 GTS he's going to find. I

drove it recently when we were just

swapping cars. I drove it for like 10

minutes, was like, "This is so nice."

And that doesn't take away how great

your GT4 is, but your GTS, he got a good

car. Speaking of good cars, our Corvette

C8 is still for sale as of this airing.

As far as I know, it's still for sale.

So, that could change at any moment.

We've had a little bit of interest, but

we would love to have your interest. If

you are shopping for a used Corvette C8,

>> you could not get a better one than

ours. It's been well taken care of. It

has that great set of Apex wheels. It

has the original wheels. It has lots of

extra tires. And it's just been well

taken care of. Yes, we've had

adventures. You can see all the video.

You can hear all the stuff in the

podcast. Yes, I had an encounter with a

deer one night, but it's all fixed. It's

all good. So, that car is in great

shape. And every time I drive it.

>> People have asked us about this. Every

time I drive it, I just go, "This car is

great."

>> Now, I I will admit it's not my favorite

car ever.

>> I had a conversation with somebody

recently where I said, "This is a car in

the Corvette C8 that is an 85 in

everything.

Maybe even a nine in everything."

>> That's good. I don't know that it has a

10,

>> but when you look at it another way,

it's like there's nothing this doesn't

do well.

>> Super fun to drive.

>> It doesn't have that weird spike that I

think for me personally

>> catapults a car into cars that are my

favorite of all time and I I always have

to have one. But I every time I drive

it, I just go, there's nothing this

doesn't do well. We've tracked it. We've

road tripped it. We've gted it in some

of our monster road trips. We've used it

in all kinds of comparisons. Tight road,

long road, boring road, lots of gear. My

wife and I have taken a road trip in

this thing and she didn't have to

compress her packing. That's how much

space it has. She just packed.

>> I was like, "All right, well, all that's

going to the vet." And it did.

>> Fantastic. Yeah. I'm sad to see it go,

but it was really for

>> comparison purposes, and I'm glad that

we had a time with it, but yeah, it's

still for sale right now. So, give us an

email if you're interested. And yeah,

comes with extra tires, two extra sets

of wheels. It's fantastic. So yeah,

Everyday Driver TV atgmail. Send us an

email. We'll tell you all about it.

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at grioggar.com.

So for our topic Tuesday, I'm I I think

I think I've been trying to think what

the title is and I think I know what it

is.

>> Oh, okay.

>> I think the title of this is enthusiasts

have ruined it for everyone. And I'm

including you and I because you and I

are guilty.

>> Yeah.

>> And and and we are simultaneously the

problem and attempting to be the

solution of this issue and we're not

going to get it solved. arsonists and

firefighters.

>> Yes, we are both because

>> what what I've been thinking about and

and this was spawned you and I got

talking about this recently. This was

spawned by our discussion of the

Prelude.

>> Mhm.

>> Versus a lot of other people's

discussion of the Prelude. And I I am

not saying that Paul and I are going to

be right about the Prelude. We may be

totally wrong. We haven't driven it yet.

Nobody's driven it yet. I

>> mean, I hope it's good.

>> There was so much vitriol at the launch

of the Prelude. Mhm.

>> And the launch of the prelude, the

vitriol was mostly about everything it

isn't.

And that got me thinking because we do

this, you do this, all of you do this.

We a new car gets launched.

>> And all of us, be it the internet or

comment sections or among our enthusiast

friends, we all get so caught up in what

it isn't. It could have been X. Why

isn't it why? Why can't it be what I

always envisioned, the perfect build

that I thought up last night? Why isn't

it that?

>> And what my my headline here is, and I

want to talk through this, we're going

to unpack it, but my headline here is

we are a wash in CUVs.

Every manufacturer makes so many CUVs,

and all of us are clearly buying them.

Every manufacturer has like three or

four at least that so overlap in

essentially what is this? Well, it's a

five seat egg-shaped configuration with

a hatch.

Pick your brand. You can probably find

three of them right now. Might be five

or six or eight.

They're just boring. The reason that we

talk about them every now and then is

because there are the occasional

standouts that are okay to drive or

surprisingly good to drive considering

it's also a CUV. So, that is truth. That

exists. And somehow in that world, we're

frustrated when somebody makes a car

that's destined to be more fun than a

CUV, but isn't possibly going to be the

most fun car ever. I'm like, there's a

gulf here. We're ignoring between the

super fun sports car and the boring CUV,

there's a lot of room to run, but

somehow anything in that interworld,

we're like, it's not a race car. Well,

of course it's not. And and look, I'm

guilty. I am guilty. But I think it's

fascinating how we as enthusiasts are

desperate for the super hardcore

enthusiast car that we probably won't

buy. By the way, we're probably not

going to buy one, but we're complaining

that whatever just got released,

Prelude, base Civic, uh, Prius isn't

super fun.

We argue about that. There's whole

Reddit threads about is it fun enough?

I've got this long list of images of all

the cars. Skipped one real quick. Super

>> I like it.

>> Jola, that's actually UMC, our home

track, right there, when the Corolla was

launched.

>> I'm going through these cars because I

feel like there was a time period

>> and it's the 1990s and 2000s, maybe

stretching into early as

>> Okay.

>> And all of us, all of us enthusiast

nerds, our car, you know, car nerds,

enthusiast, driver.

>> Yeah. enthusiast.

We all assumed that every sports car

made by a company was just going to be

the next iteration and it would have

more power and it would be better and

we'd like it more and we'd probably have

more money at that point to buy it and

would just continue in perpetuity.

[Laughter]

>> The 1990s just of course there's just

going to be a the next Honda S2000.

there will just be the next one.

>> And of course, there's just going to be

a next NSX and it's going to be soon,

like not 10 years later, but it's going

to be right after. And

>> you know, we're just going to keep

having all these great cars just

manufacturers will they'll just keep

building them just

>> because that's what it's it's noble.

It's it feeds into

>> Isn't that what car makers do? Don't

they make driving cars?

>> Great cars. I'll scroll back through.

You're recognizing so many of these. And

what I'm showing is all the GR cars. The

Nissan Z, the M2, the Civic Type R, the

Prelude's in there, too. Cadillac

Blackwing, MX5 Miata. What else? Honda

I listed all these cars and I thought,

>> you know what, these cars,

I think we're all too picky because they

don't meet some sort of ideal, like you

said, in our minds

>> of old school think.

>> Okay. the way it used to be. Rear wheel

drive, front engine, maybe mid engine,

but front engine, manual transmission,

no electronic nannies. It just runs.

It's got a giant turbo, tons of

horsepower, handles great, looks cool.

Yeah.

>> And it just it just is. And they'll just

we'll just keep building them. And when

save the manuals started,

>> it sort of threw everybody for a loop.

Like, wait a minute.

>> What do you mean save? I thought we were

>> What happened? Why aren't they going to

be here?

>> Why do we need to save the manuals?

They're always going to be around,

right?

>> Because save the manuals really is the

implication of save fun driving, save

enthusiast driving,

>> save involving driving. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

>> But there's plenty of cars that that

applies to that aren't manual

transmission and are not offered with

manuals.

>> True. Yeah.

>> Especially as we get into the super

duper hypercars.

>> Mhm.

>> And those are all cars of course we

want. If somebody gave one to you, are

you telling me you wouldn't fight that

off or that you would fight it off and

that you wouldn't take it? And of course

I'm not taking a McLaren. There's no

manuals.

>> How dare you try to give me a McLaren

anything?

>> That's a great point.

>> I wouldn't take that crap.

>> The the folks that that get into GR86

instead,

>> the folks that are in the comments that

say, "I would never buy car X cuz it's

not a manual." You make a good point. If

somebody handed them a not offered in a

manual hypercar, wouldn't they put it in

their garage? Even a PDK GT car, a GT3

RS. Oh, but it's PDK. Are you telling me

you'd turn that down? Somebody wanted to

give you one. That's a great point. I

hadn't thought about that.

>> A Lamborghini, anything.

>> Anything.

>> Thank you for standing on principle.

>> Thank you for walking into the hypercar

thing because that's another part of

this. Hypercars, honestly, hypercars now

are the epitome of where you and I

started the show. You and I started this

show. We used to have a tagline on the

back of our shirts that said, "You can't

drive a spec sheet." Because the thing

you and I were always surprised by and

wanted to help educate others on was it

doesn't matter how the bench racing

looks. Well, that has more power and

this has a better, tighter steering

rack. It doesn't really matter because

all that does, and we still do it this

day, that kind of gives you parameters

to start the conversation with, but once

you get in the driver's seat and drive

them, the car you thought was far worse

might be so much better to drive. But

yet hypercars now it's just bench

racing. It's like fantasy football for

cars. Well this one seriously it's just

this one has more horsepower than its

competitor. Oh and that one's going to

have a one one uh tenth of a second

faster. I mean it's always been the case

but I feel like it's even more extreme.

It's even more it's turned to 11. It's

even more turned up on hypercars where

every single one of them that drops has

a comma in the horsepower and some new

ridiculous moonshot idea that somebody

had. And we all know they're not going

to be driven. We know they aren't. It's

just I bought it. You don't have it. And

look at the the plaque on the wall that

that says what it'll do. It's almost I

know this sounds crazy. It's almost like

the folks that we all make fun of at

Cars and Coffee where they have their

car with a hood up and a big plaque in

it that tells you all the stats. It's

that without having to go to Cars and

Coffee.

>> Can I tell you about my car?

>> It's that without having to go to Cars

and Coffee. I bought one. You can't have

one. I have one of 200 in the world. It

has no miles and it sits with my 200

other cars in my warehouse, but they're

all sold. And you and I and we do it. We

read the press release and we talk about

the 2000 horsepower Eva,

>> but

okay. And and and I'm asking, and I'm a

Lotus fan, is the 2000 horsepower Eva

>> twice as fun to drive as a 1,000

horsepower hypercar? And I would argue

no, not having driven either of the

above. Okay. If it's 1500 horsepower

versus 2,000 horsepower, is 2,000 always

better? Well, not in our experience. But

when you're selling a hypercar, yes.

>> Did it start with the Veyron when that

was introduced? Because it had so much

horsepower and was so mind-blowing and

every stat.

>> I think it

>> 11 radiators, the tires wear out in 24

minutes at top speed.

>> What?

>> Here's here's the thing to to your

point. When you and I were growing up,

and I was totally guilty of this, I I

the little car geek me, my favorite part

of the car and driver was the huge

spreadsheets in the back, and they

always bolded the one with the best

stats in one area, like the one that was

06. I knew I knew those stats, man,

before I could drive. I knew those. I

was the annoying kid at Cars and Coffee

that knew better than all the adults. I

was that kid. There was no Cars and

Coffee to be seen, but I was that kid

for sure. I got away from that for a

while, came back, and realized cars

could be fun to drive. But those stats

were paramount growing up long before

the Veyron. But what I think the Veyron

did was supercharge that idea. I think

what it did, it took it from these are

cars that are being driven to these are

cars that because of 250 mph horsepower

where there's nowhere you can do it.

Cars that are never going to be driven

like this, but we just wanted to tell

you we could do it. I think the Veyron

introduced that. I think before the

Veyron, theoretically people could go

out and drive their crazy hypercar and

some of them could actually do the stuff

that was listed on paper. But once you

get a 250 mph top speed where even

Volkswagen has to use a less sign to

prove it, you're not going to do this

stuff anymore. It is entirely bench

racing information on paper. So, we have

that going on in hypercars, but then

down where the rest of us reside, where

budgets matter, all we're doing is

going, "Well, why isn't that perfect?"

All these cars are for the rest of us.

>> Budgets matter.

>> They're still aspirational. Not

everybody can afford them,

>> for sure. Yeah.

>> But they all have a decent level of

performance.

>> And aspirational and fun to drive in

their own right. I mean, maybe I'm

showing the dark horse right now, and I

maybe eat a little crow on that one, but

still, it's got a lot of power. And you

know what? Dipping into the throttle,

it's a lot of people like this car.

>> It's good to drive. Here's MX5 Miata RF.

I'm showing RF here. Veloster N. So,

these are the cars that I say,

>> are we enthusiasts too picky when it

doesn't drive like something we think,

you know, Veloster N, frontwheel drive

can't possibly be good.

>> It's great. Actually,

>> you should own a Veloster N.

The flip side to all this conversation

is are we too picky? And if we weren't

picky and demanding and now vocal enough

with the proliferation of car YouTube

videos and and social media,

>> car manufacturers wouldn't really know.

They wouldn't hear what enthusiasts are

actually being picky about and wouldn't

offer anything anymore because well, I

guess we're not hearing anything. I CUVs

must be fine. I see. Those are the ones

that are selling.

>> They are selling.

>> I mean you the graph goes this way for

the CUVs and the graph goes that way for

the for the sports cars. So let's build

the things that make money.

>> This is MBA like your first day when

you're getting your well in any

economics like

>> this is sell the things. Yes. Sell the

things. You're right.

>> Make and sell the things that people

want to buy.

>> CUVs. Silver. Let's make them silver.

We're good. We're hearing good numbers.

I'll stay I'll stay with one

manufacturer real fast. Toyota.

>> Yeah.

>> They sell roughly a half million RAV 4s

a year. Half million.

>> That is a cat.

>> They sell roughly

5 to 10,000 GR86s in the same year. 5 to

10,000 G86.

>> G86 here.

>> Okay. Now, my question for you is on

numbers, there's no reason to make the

G86. And clearly, while we're all

complaining about everything quote

unquote wrong with the G86, we could

just go buy a RAV 4 with everyone else

on the planet.

>> Yeah. And the G86 could be more

powerful. It's got RTV. Wait, what about

oil starvation? This brings up the other

thing.

>> The internet has also amplified all of

these discussions. You and I get into

these conversations with people

constantly where, and I don't care, pick

your car. Pick any car. If you dig far

enough, it has a fatal flaw that

somebody has said, "You cannot buy this

car because blank will always happen."

And I want to state real quickly, it

will not always happen.

>> Or you have an E46 M3, the subframe's

going to crack in the rear, man.

>> Yes. Exactly. Totally. Yes.

>> Spun roller, you know, spun bearings.

Like, sorry.

>> But the G86, the G86, the engine is not

might is going to blow up 100%. That is

the online chatter. 100% that engine

will blow up. Uh-huh.

>> There are no numbers to support that, by

the way.

>> But but the amount of time anytime you

and I say something nice about it,

somebody will will literally just put in

the comments just RTV. Just those three

letters or oil starvation. This engine's

bound to blow.

>> Possible issues. Yes.

>> IMS bearing the Yes. I mean, pick pick

your car. There is some fatal flaw that

is not worth buying. But then I come

back to kind of to your hypercar thing.

Would you rather drive a CUV? And we're

voting with our wallets. Yes, I'd rather

drive a CUV. I'm going to complain like

crazy that that sports car is not

everything I wanted it to be while I buy

a CUV.

And I'll also say this, this is

something that happens on our meetups

all the time. Somebody will bring a car

that you and I have not gloated about.

>> Okay.

>> All right.

>> Yeah.

>> It's a car that is not for you and I,

>> right?

>> But they love it. They love it.

>> Yeah.

>> That is our paramount purpose. We want

you to buy and own a car you love. But I

will also say this. If they bring a car

that you and I don't love, but it's not

a CUV, I applaud them every time.

>> Yes.

>> Because they bought a car. This is that

chasm between everybody's buying CUVs

and interesting sports cars are being

made that you and I still don't wish

that still wish they were better. The

Darkhorse Mustang is a great example.

That car, I'll call it right now, that

car is too heavy. It has no feel in the

steering. I don't like the Samsung dash.

>> I don't I don't like the big TV. You get

the '90s Fox body interface.

>> The gauges can come up and look like

vanilla ice air. And you can play that

on the stereo. All of that works.

>> Yeah.

>> And it sounds pretty cool, but it

doesn't drive like I want it to drive.

But if somebody said to me, I'm

considering a Darkhorse Mustang or

another CUV. Buy the Darkhorse. What are

you doing? It's so much better than any

CUV you could buy. It's so much I

honestly I talk about the Macans and the

Cayens all the time.

>> Buy a Darkhorse.

>> Buy the dark. Yes, buy the dark horse.

>> Buy a Zcar. These are cars that we have

said we wish they were more,

>> but we need to be buying cars. And you

mentioned it earlier. Think about '90s

Hondas.

We look back, all of us seem to look

back on 90s Hondas like

>> Yes.

>> And that was just when when Honda

released the CRX

>> or the Civic of the

>> 90s,

>> it was just a car. It wasn't like the

new enthusiast thing. It was just car.

Here's the CRX is this weird hatchback

version of the Civic. Here's our new

Civic. Here's a new Honda. But we look

back on them finally because what's

happening now is in general those

middle-of the road cars between sports

cars and SUVs, those middle- of the road

cars, none of them are interesting. And

in most cases, they've ceased to exist.

>> Yes.

>> So that was the era in the 90s and the

early 2000s where cars were being made.

And you could go into any of those

market segments and you could find one

that was like, you know what, drives

really well. Well, now we don't even

have them. So, we have sports cars,

we're complaining about, CUVs that we're

buying. This is where I come to the fact

that I think we enthusiasts are hurting

ourselves. Why can't we celebrate, and I

hate to, it's just the newest example.

It's why I bring it up. Why can't we

celebrate the Prelude?

If it's not a sports car, it didn't used

to be.

>> Why can't we celebrate the Tessterosa

with no sidestrokes?

>> True. But but if it's not a sports car,

which it never was,

>> but it's more fun to drive than a small

5-seat compact SUV. Isn't that a

victory? I would say yes.

>> I mean,

>> but we can't celebrate that.

>> You're right.

>> We can't celebrate the middle ground

cars at all. We're too picky.

>> It's got to lean into hypercar

craziness. Oh, I can't believe it does

everything I ever imagined. Or it's got

to be, well, you know, I've got a child,

so I need three car seats and an ability

to haul a bunch of people, so I'm going

to get a seven-seater. What are we

doing? And we're voting with dollars

>> for sure. I think in this new era of

cars, I mean,

autonomous driving phase happened.

>> Mhm.

>> EVs happened.

>> COVID happened, crazy pricing of cars,

>> and manufacturing. I'll say trying to

redo and rethink methods of

manufacturing. better, cheaper, faster.

So, it's not quite so handbuilt because

making all these mechanical

>> functions that costs a lot of money to

design and engineer and then have a

person assemble all those. If it's a

unit that can be part of another sub

thing.

>> Absolutely. Yes.

>> You know, the car goes together in seven

subunits. Well, that saves a car

manufacturer a lot of money.

>> MQB flat platform at Volkswagen.

>> Yes.

>> So, the Atlas drives like the Gulf.

electric power steering racks to

introduce new features like lane

departure assist, you know, all those

kinds of features. That's where we're at

now.

>> But I think we need to have more open

minds, but still let manufacturers know

that our standards are as enthusiasts

and buyers have not gone down. That

doesn't necessarily mean we'll just take

whatever you want to make. We'll just

we'll we'll accept a

>> less well-engineered, not quite as good

handling. don't make it too powerful

kind of blah car.

>> Yeah.

>> Because there's many many people at

every car company worldwide who actually

love cars and want to drive the cool

stuff.

>> Those people exist. Yes. Thankfully,

>> that's most of the people that work at a

car manufacturer. Not all,

>> but I would say well over 50%. I'm I'm

>> I would like to think more than half.

>> Pulling that out of thin air.

>> Like to think more than half actually

like cars. Yes,

>> people like that. But also the era of

car manufacturers looking at another

model and saying we've got to build

something like that like a GR86.

>> I think those days are gone. Like we've

got to have a 3 series competitor.

Nobody thinks like that anymore.

>> We're going to do our own thing. We're

going to offer Hyundai doesn't think you

know what we need a super competitor and

we need a we need that end program to be

just like GR and we're going to build

the same line of vehicles and we're

going to compete head-to-head. They're

going to do their own thing. I think

everybody's going to do their own thing.

And there's going to be performance

vehicles that all look different. Some

of them kind of compare, others don't.

>> We're here to find out always in our

comparisons because there still will be

that you know what, if you're spending

this amount, have you considered this?

>> Similar kinds of things, but the

enjoyment is different. I'm not saying

they all get five stars and no, you can

go home now, but

>> but car companies are going to always do

their own thing. The Prelude, hey, we're

doing our own thing. They didn't look at

GR86 and MX5 and go, "We got to have an

exact car like that." They didn't. Well,

also the Prelude doesn't make sense to

be that car. I know we talked about in

the last podcast, but it does make sense

for the Prelude to be that. Maybe that's

still coming.

>> Yeah. Maybe Honda's looking around. But

I I will say the one place they're

looking around now because everybody's

throwing their dollars at it is, oh,

well, our competitor doesn't offer just

three SUVs. Small, medium, large. They

offer small, small, medium, medium,

medium, large, large, extra large. So,

we need to fill in the gaps.

>> Extra medium, large.

>> Seriously, large, large, large, XL.

>> It is like that. It is just insane. And

then the number of small cars that now

have a third row. Here's I'll put it out

there. The Golf GTI is a surprisingly

roomy hatchback. Every time I'm in one,

I think, "Wow, this has got much more

space than I expect." It has more space,

more usable space than many small SUVs.

If I said to you, if I said to any of

you listening,

Volkswagen is thinking about offering a

third row in the Gulf, you'd think I was

insane. But the reality is,

>> have you heard of the Caddy?

>> But but but the reality is

>> in Europe only.

>> Seriously, the the the thing is some of

the SUVs where they're cramming a third

row into aren't much bigger than a Golf.

>> No.

>> But because I'm buying an SUV, maybe I

need a third row. It's like what is

going on? Look, the fact that Cadillac,

as you said, dove head first, maybe it's

like feet and head first. They were like

bent over to try to get into the EV

market. Like every everybody into the

pool,

>> everybody in as fat like push your Freds

in. We're going in now. Yeah.

>> The fact that they're doing that, but

yet they still make a Suburban that

starts in sport mode. It's the Escalade

V.

>> Uhhuh.

>> With a crazy engine.

>> Yes.

and they build the Blackwing, the CT4

and CT5V Blackwing cars that are manual

sedans, rear wheel drive. The fact that

they're still doing this and still

talking about doing more

>> sort of like,

>> yeah, this is good.

>> Yes,

>> we're still in this era, but we've got

to be open-minded for

new performance because as much as we're

not satisfied with adherence to that old

recipe, we're missing out on what's

future performance,

>> what could be good to drive. And you

know what? It's electric everything. I

mean, from electric power steering rack,

everything about it. Maybe it's an EV

itself.

>> I mean, that Ionic 5N,

>> what a fun car.

>> Incredibly fun to drive. Yes.

Absolutely. Yeah.

>> We've got to be more open-minded about

what's possible in the future. Now,

>> it might suck. The car car company might

Yeah.

>> make a mistake and fall in their face.

>> Those steps are true.

>> Yeah. Mhm. You know what? This didn't

cut it and the sales are down. But from

gas to electric, for hybrids, everything

in between, it can only have two turbos

and 711 horsepower. And

>> otherwise, we just won't look.

>> I will reject it entirely. You mentioned

something earlier, and this is something

that I also think gets missed, and you

can see it in like uh reliability

ratings. If you look at them over like a

5 or 10 year cycle,

>> the worst cars on the market now are far

better than the worst cars on the market

10 years ago as far as just driving

quality and safety and tech. We're all

moving in mass in the same direction.

The problem is we we've joked about it

before, the unicar. We're headed toward

a thing where they all drive the same

and and fun fun is personal. Fun is so

personal behind the wheel and we want

you to enjoy what you're driving. That

is the beginning and the end of why we

do this show. We want you to enjoy.

You've got a big monthly payment for

that car. It's a lot of outgo. It's

short of just your house. It's house

then car as far as things you spend huge

amount of money on. You're bored by it.

You don't like it. Get a different

vehicle. So, that is the number one

thing we're about. But even the worst

cars now are surprisingly capable.

That's why we did what we did with a

Prius.

>> There's that Prius had no business being

as fun as it is. Is it as fun we did it

with the Elantra in? Is it as fun as an

Elantre in? No. But it gets a lot closer

than you'd think it would when you look

at what's written on the tag. Prius,

that can't be fun.

Telling you, GR badge. It's gonna

>> I have to tell you guys at one GR Prius

story. Okay, one GR Pri I I don't think

we've shared this publicly yet and I

don't think Toyota would mind because

it's just a funny moment. So, we had

that Prius for a little while and we put

just tires on it

>> and we were amazed at how much fun it

is. We put it against an Elantre in

before it had tires. We put it in

against a Golf R after it had tires. We

had a lot of fun with it. Okay. Was

really good. Put it on track against the

G86. Is it a performance car? It's not.

But as a baseline daily commuter, it's

much better than we think it is. This

gets back into the whole discussion, but

we as a joke, if you watched that series

on our last video, we decided it earned

a GR badge. So, we bought official like

actual from Toyota GR badges and we

stuck them on the car in a couple of

places for the final video. We stuck you

and I are showing on camera. We bought

the actual GR badges on the car.

>> 20 bucks a badge.

>> It was very expensive for for for a gag

like that. Yeah. And then we just sent

it back to Toyota and what we were told

we were told this multiple times. We're

picking it up. It was a very nice

six-month loaner. We had a lot of fun

with it. Shot a lot of videos, but we

were told as soon as this car gets

picked up from you guys, it's getting

crushed.

>> Okay, that was my understanding. It was

pre-production car. That happened.

>> It was the village bicycle. Everybody

had driven it

>> totally. It got pulled back to the

actual HQ in the Dallas area.

And unbeknownsted to apparently

everybody with a clipboard, it had these

GR badges on it. So, one of our friends

at Toyota Corporate sent us a link to

this thread when it happened.

>> It was like a Reddit thread or

something.

>> It was a Reddit thread about a month or

so after we turned the car back in. It

hadn't been crushed yet. And somebody at

Toyota HQ pulled it out of the loner

fleet and took it somewhere in Dallas.

And somebody in Dallas photographed the

GR badges that we put on as a joke on

the Prius, posted on Reddit, and a huge

discussion started on Reddit of here's

the proof, the proof that they're making

a GR Prius. And somebody in the

commentary actually went, "Isn't this

the everyday driver car?" And gave the

link, thank God. But Toyota kind they

kind of sent us a kind of a laughing how

dare you guys kind of email like guys

>> guys look what you started now because

Reddit blew up. Maybe Reddit's the

problem. I don't know that it is but but

it was just funny that that happened.

>> Well, see I got excited about it. I can

resurrect this entire line of discussion

because the 2026 RAV 4 is now coming out

with a newly introduced GR Sport line.

It's like Nline or S-line from Audi.

Okay. So, GR line, it's going to be

handling tuned by GR by Gazi Racing.

>> Uhhuh.

>> That could be applied to the Prius.

Let's not go full GR, but a Prius with

GR Sport. You keep beating this drum.

>> Oh, if

>> but but if that

>> I will do a victory dance if that

happens and they decide, well, if they

do it to a RAV 4, but to everything

we've talked about, Prius is not off the

table. Whether they do it or not, that

is still an eligible vehicle to do it

with. To everything we've talked about,

what you've just talked about is their

most successful vehicle is about to be

relaunched. The brand new RAV 4 is

coming very, very soon, and they are now

offering a sporty trim of an SUV,

because we all buy SUVs. If you would

like something that is more fun to drive

than an SUV, all of these photos, all of

these cars Paul has been listing, all of

these cars that we and many others have

said it's not good enough because of X,

all of them are more fun than an SUV.

>> Yeah.

>> And we go buy SUVs, which is too bad.

So, we need to buy these cars that drive

well, even if they don't drive to our

personal spec sheet. Thank you. That's

exactly it. So, I've got this photo

hanging out on screen. And it is a 2003

BMW M3 CSL.

>> Oo, that is the one everybody wants

according to the internet

>> pretty much. So if if you say, you know,

pinnacle sports car, manual

transmission, rear wheel drive,

>> peak BMW,

>> fantastic sports car, except it doesn't

have a lot of the modern amenities that

we all have grown accustomed to. But

forget about it all that they're more

they cost more now than they ever did

new.

>> This is peak sports car. This is the one

that every future sports car should be

benchmarked against and it should only

be it should be this or better from here

on out. Sure. Yeah. It won't be. This is

a great example. It was a moment in

time. But when I say open-minded, I mean

drive it as it is. And kind of coming

back to the foundation of the show,

cover up the badge, drive it for what it

is. Drive the Prelude without knowing

it's a Honda Prelude. And is it good or

bad? Do you like it or not?

>> Does it work for you? But still,

you know what?

[Music]

Manufactur.

I'm still looking for X. I'm still

looking for something else in my driving

experience, and I'm going to go buy

whatever else, but I think I I mean

open-minded and just drive it for what

it is. Drive it for

>> that car, and that's that particular

company's vision of future performance.

>> Sure.

>> Cool. Let's drive it. You might not like

it. And if you don't, great. At least

you gave it a shot. But nobody's driven

the Prelude yet. And the entire indust

industry, the entire internet has just

thrashed the car.

>> The internet decided it can't be any

good.

>> I'm kind of thinking you might be wrong.

I hope everybody's wrong. I hope it's

like medium good.

>> What? But you know what? Sorry. While

we're staying here for for a moment, if

the Prelude drives better than the

current Prius, I think that's a victory.

It doesn't need to drive like the 86. It

doesn't need to be the new S2000. That's

not its build sheet.

>> Now, can I can I look at the Prelude and

say there's things I'd like to be

different? Yes. The number one is

where's the manual?

>> Because Honda's proven they can do

hybrid and manual. So, where's the

manual? I can ask that question and I

legitimately feel it because Honda makes

manuals that are easy enough to drive.

You could drive it as a commute car. So,

let's make a new hybrid manual. Maybe

it's coming. Mh.

>> But ultimately, again, if it drives

better than the Prius and looks like it

does and has the hatchback, I think we

all won, didn't we?

>> I think so. Is that what winning feels

like?

>> Winning feels different than it used to.

It's a whole new world. 2025, you got to

take your wins where you can get it.

Can't we all agree on that?

>> Winning feels different than we just

Let's take our wins at 2025 here at

Everyday Driver with sports cars, normal

cars. Let's take the win.

Since you're listening to us, you'll end

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If you guys don't know, we actually have

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actually we want to get everybody we can

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driver. Hooked ondriving.com. We have

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weekend, Ridge Motorsports Park, that's

our Pacific Northwest region, is doing

something at the Ridge September 26 27.

That's a busy weekend. We got all over

the nation that same weekend. It's

really cool.

>> Look at the schedule for Hooked on

Driving. It's hooked ondriving.com. Top

right corner. Look at the hamburger. You

can see the full schedule for the rest

of 2025. And there is an event in a

region near you. And you can go ahead

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to hooked ondriving.com.

Do we think that uh Constantine works at

the Porsche Experience Center in LA?

>> I think so.

>> It seems like he must. He's writing in

and he's saying that he's looking for a

fun, practical daily. He sold all his

cars. He's been riding a motorcycle, but

he's borrowed somebody's base 2009 Mini

Cooper when he needs it, but he's

realized the owners are about to need it

back, so he's not going to have access

to that car anymore. So, he's 34,

single, living in LA, 25 mile commute on

the 405. again, Porsche Experience

Center. Sometimes that means 40 minutes

to work, sometimes it means twice that

much. He's fortunate to be a driving

coach for Porsche, so he admits he is

spoiled and warped by this. He could

spend as much as $50,000 for something

with new features, but as he's come to

expect from work, he'd like it to be

great. $50,000 might not get him what

he's hoping for, so he could also maybe

just spend $25,000 on the used market.

>> Constantine says he wants active cruise

control. He got used to that on his old

Volvo V60. Eases the commute. He wants

an automatic, ideally dual clutch. No

CVTs. LA traffic and manual sucks. Yes,

it does.

>> Smaller than his 2015 V60 cross country,

which is a lot of things. A lot of

things smaller than that.

>> There are

>> V60 cross country. Big car.

>> Yeah.

>> He wants a hatchback or a wagon. He got

used to wagon life in the Volvo and

loves the practicality. He wants a

warranty. He's got PTSD from blown

engines and expensive repairs and

doesn't want to worry.

>> Tolerable ride quality. fit roof racks

for his bicycle. Fun to drive. Even

though he's a rear wheel drive or

all-wheel drive kind of a guy, he would

consider front-wheel drive.

>> Okay. Track capable, but this is not as

important. If it's about $25,000 or

under, if it's at about 50,000 or under,

it needs to be track capable. But if it

were the lower cost option, he'd

probably do some sort of track specific

car like a Trackr Miata or something.

>> Sure. Yeah. Okay.

>> Ventilated seats, not necessarily a

dealbreaker, but they are sure nice when

it's hot out and somewhat premium

feeling. He drove a GR Corolla and

wasn't impressed for the money, which I

have to agree with you, Constantine. I

mean, the GR Corolla is awesome. When

you think, I spent $40,000 on this and

this is the interior. It's the It's the

Focus RS or the Fiesta ST problem. The

performance is great. Yes, it's the per

performance is great,

>> but this is an economy car inside.

That's a problem.

>> Constantine has narrowed his search to

mainly hot hatches and currently has a

deposit down on a Mark 8.5 Golf R.

>> So, the one where they actually put some

buttons back.

>> They put button.

>> Got it. Okay. Good. Excellent. Good.

>> We should listen to the customer.

>> Yeah, that's happened. It's pretty cool.

>> Now, Constantine is questioning this

choice because of how expensive the car

is.

>> Deposit won't be the end of the world,

but spending $50,000 on something he's

not in love with would suck. So, he's

So, wait, he's come to the place where

he thinks the golf is the answer, but

then he has the sentence, $50,000 on

something I'm not in love with would

suck, which is true. What I what I sense

here is he's made a choice with his

head. The Golf R is the car that checks

every box for the amount of money I can

spend new $50,000. And he's right. It

does check all the boxes, but I don't

get the sense he's like, you know what I

want is a Golf R. Because he then says

cheaper alternative is the new GTI and

it's most of what he needs from a daily.

I would submit to you it's everything

you need from a daily. You're in Los

Angeles. You don't need the Golf R,

especially considering the tuning you

can do to a GTI. Everybody on the planet

can tune your GTI the minute you leave

the dealership. They tell us about the

tunes all the time. He can spend, you

know, still he can spend essentially

high30s, maybe 40, save money, get the

GTI exactly to his spec.

>> A high 40s GTI though.

>> No, no, no. High30s, low 40s.

>> High30s or low 40s, but 38,000 for the

SE trim that he wants.

>> Yeah. But but then he could go used the

Mark 7 and a half, which is the one

before they went to the haptic disaster,

save even more money. Still get the car

that he that actually checks all the

boxes for his head.

>> I think he's forcing himself to

>> be in love. I agree. I agree with that.

>> Like I think I'm in love. I'm I'm in

love.

>> I'm going to get it because

by the way, don't marry a person because

it makes sense.

>> It's not a business relationship. I

mean, look, it is there there. Look,

you're going to live with this person

theoretically forever and you're going

to have a lot of times when you don't

love them that much.

>> Switching to relationships.

>> Seriously. But but if the only reason

you're marrying them is because it makes

sense. Oh, that's going to be cold fast.

Anyway, yeah, moving on.

>> Constantine says some of the

alternatives he's considered are

Veloster N, which is suitably fun. That

is damning with faint praise, my friend.

>> But between the rear hatch opening,

limited rear visibility, and less

premium interior, he's not sold. See,

yeah, it's suitable. Yeah, you could

work. The Mazda 3 Turbo was briefly on

his list, but he struggles with the

styling. Okay.

>> He says used 3 series wagons about

2018ish are appealing, but bigger than

what he would like or need at this point

in life.

>> Driving the Mini around has shown him

how much he enjoys driving a a small car

around the crowded city known as Los

Angeles.

>> I totally get that. Yep.

>> He said it's just ever slightly too

small for his needs. And he's beginning

to sound like Goldilocks over here, but

feels the GTI size is the sweet spot

between practicality and compactness. I

do see that it I said it earlier this

podcast. It's amazing how the Gulf does

a phenomenal job with packaging. It's a

thing it does best.

>> He's forcing himself to be in love with

it, though. There's no like, oh, I

really just I love him because there's

none of that. There's no emotion in this

email.

>> He He's looking for input on cars,

hoping that either we validate his golf,

$50,000 on a golf, or find something he

doesn't he hasn't thought of. I do have

to like quickly walk through his huge

car history. I'm not going to walk

through all of it other than the fact

you should just know he's had every

variant of Miata you can imagine.

Sometimes back to back to back to back

to count back to back.

>> 11 Miatas.

>> Here's the scary part.

His fifth car on the list is a 2002 WRX.

Blew up three engines.

Three engines in that car before he goes

on to a series of Miatas and M3s and

S2000s. And he's driven everything you

can imagine.

>> Cycle.

>> It's the same kind of cars keep cycling

through. He's owned the IS- 300 Lexus

Sport cross twice.

Most of the time, many of you that write

us when we talk about that car with the

cool watch gauges, it's hard for us to

convince somebody to find one and

consider it. He's owned two apart from

each other. He had another WRX that

worked its way into his life down at car

number 20. WRX hatch, blew one engine,

got rid of it. So, he blew three on the

first one, another on the second one.

We're down here again. He has a car

number 30, a 2003 S2000 blew the engine.

That's And then car 31, an Outback H6

Subaru. The head gasket left the chat.

>> So that talk about P PTSD on these cars.

I am really sorry you have had all this

problem, but you have listed 32 cars in

your ownership. You now don't own one at

all. So, the question for Constantine is

golf or what else?

Constantine, I have good news. I have

two wild cards for you. I've got great

options, a lot to consider.

>> I mean, a guy that's owned 11 Miatas,

three S2000s, four BMWs,

>> three WRXs, a mixture of other Toyota

Matrix, XRS, and other stuff.

>> Mhm. Like an LS4.

>> I'm just going to list the last five

cars from 27 to 32. It is a V60 cross

country Volvo, an S2000,

his second IS-300 Sport Cross, another

S2000, then a Subaru Outback, which was

the third time he had an Subaru with the

blowing engines, and then that 318 Ti

BMW, and then he said, "I'm out."

>> That's just the last five.

>> All right, I'm going to pull up some

photos here for you so you can see what

my choices are. Constantine,

we believe you're a driving coach. Well,

I mean, we know you're driving coach

because you told us, but we believe

you're at Paddle. Yes. Or sorry, Pekka.

>> Peka Porsche Experience Center LA. Yes.

>> So, with that, I've got a Porsche Macan

Turbo on screen and it is prior

generation.

>> And this seems the pl see seems like the

place to start. It seems sort of like

Captain Obvious. You are a coach for

Porsche. You work at Porsche. And when

people sitting next to you in the car,

I'm sure they ask you, "So, what do you

drive?"

>> Sure. Yeah. And what are you going to

want to tell them?

>> Now, on one hand, it would be cool to

say, "Hey, I've got a Macan. I've got a

used Macan. I save some money. It's a

turbo. It's a GTS. Don't care what it

is. You got a great Macan. It's like a

little hatch. It's really meets all the

needs that you're describing. It checks

this entire

>> this entire list here."

>> Totally agree. Totally agree.

>> But I understand if you don't want to go

that route and you would feel a sense of

obligation. feel,

>> well, I work for Porsche, so I must buy

something

>> that they offer.

>> So, what you could do is continue to

move on across town in Stoutgart.

>> I'm going to go to this one first. And I

selected the Mercedes AMG GLA35.

>> Okay. All right.

>> Because it is a hot hatch. It's the more

uh upscale gentlemanly I'm kind of out

of my phase of cycle of 11 Miatas,

3S2000s,

>> BMW, multiple WXs. This is you moved up

and it is I mean as much as it's being

sold as a CUV. This is a hatch.

>> This is a hatch for sure. So that has

302 horsepower, 295 pound- feet of

torque, and they're all about 29

$28,000.

>> Okay. All right. Good.

>> But I did show also the GLA 45 AMG. also

a consideration. The 2019 had a 375

horsepower engine. They bumped it later

to 382 horsepower with 354 lbft of

torque.

>> They're overlooked. They're very fun.

>> These are excellent. And these are all

$47,000.

Could you track this? You could.

>> Mhm.

>> I just throw this out. If I'm going to

mention the GLA35 or any older GLA 45.

>> Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> I've got to mention the new one as well.

Sure you could track it. I'm sure it's

got track mode. It's got a little tiny

spoiler and so you could

>> It's got a spoiler. It's bound to have

track mode.

>> It's like that Corolla S where there was

nothing S about it but the little lip

spoiler and the S badge. Otherwise,

there was nothing S

>> and charge you a little bit more.

>> Just a little bit more. This is the

sporty one. It's got the red S on the

back. It must be fast. Moving on.

>> Also, if we're talking GLA's, I've got

to mention the GLC 43, which is the

lowiest of the AMG GLC's,

but this still has gobs of horsepower,

almost 400 horsepower. It actually I

think it's a hatch. It's small enough to

be a hatch even though it's a

>> CUV. It's it's right in between maybe.

Yeah.

>> But fun to drive. Excellent. And it's

also in that price range sub $50,000.

You can find one of these. Great to

drive.

>> Trackw worthy. You can. Do you want to?

Do you want to pay for consumables?

There's other better choices for track

use.

>> Agreed. Yes.

>> Okay. So, my final choice on the list.

You remember the BMW X2 before the new

ugly one? I mean, the new one came out.

remember the original that we actually

saw when we first saw one. We thought

that might be interesting. It looks like

BMW made a hatch. It does. It looks like

it. Yeah.

>> To my I mean this is the M235. So, it's

not the not an M car, but still a fun

little hot hatch. But these are fairly

inexpensive, so kind of fun to drive.

It's small form factor. It would meet

all those criteria except for being a

track car. And what I'm gravitating

towards, and I hope you sense that, is

the one we choose for you is not just

one because you're a driving coach. And

I think you're going to need something

very specific to meet your track

satisfaction needs.

>> Probably. And he'll probably end up

having to build it to make it feel like

he wants wants it to feel. Yeah.

>> So, I'm putting these out there to get

them all off the table so we can now

move to the actual choices, which are

the wild cards.

>> All right. Good. Excellent. Get get

serious now. Good. And I mentioned it

before, but have you entertained the

2026 Toyota RAV 4 with the new GR Sport

newly introduced trim level? Because

this, my friend, the form factor is

smaller. It's going to do all of the

things that you want. It's brand new

with a warranty. You're not putting any

money into it to keep the engine running

or tune it or do anything. Takes your

bikes.

>> It's invisible

>> in traffic. Oh, yeah. For sure. Easy to

drive, easy to park. GR Sport GR tuned

handling, my friend.

>> I don't know. We will see. We shall see.

And it's a PHEV and it has up to 320

horsepower which is not nothing in a

little truck.

>> It's a truck.

>> I I I don't think this is a hatch. This

is a truck. This is probably too big for

his taste, but it is a little bit where

you are. Yeah.

>> However, I'm going to save you money.

I'm going to get you back into a wagon

and I'm going to tell you about the Kia

K4 hatchback.

This is coming, my friend. Now,

>> this is not really sporty in any way.

>> It's not.

>> But it's going to be a lot less money.

It's going to be brand new with a

warranty. It is a wagon, my friend.

>> The K4, in my opinion, looks best in

hatchback form.

>> It does look good.

>> It does look good. Cuz the problem with

the K4 sedan that you and I drove was

the rear 3/4 wasn't quite right. The

hatch has fixed the problem with the

car.

>> It is resolved.

>> I agree with that. is

>> I think small enough because you had a

V60

>> and this feels like

>> this has got to be smaller than that. It

has

>> small wagon. Now,

>> it's not a performance car. It is

frontwheel drive only. The most powerful

engine option in the GT line is 190

horsepower 1.6 L turbo 4.

Yay.

I don't know what else to do. I just

Yeah. Yeah. However, like small

balloons, like little balloons, we

balloons. Yeah. However, it's a Kia.

It's going to run.

>> And it does have an actual 8-speed auto.

The

>> lower horsepower engine option is the

IVVT or IVT.

>> It's their version of a variable.

>> CVT. We're trying to like not use the

deadly letter.

>> If I call it something else, you won't

know that it's the bad thing you don't

like.

>> That's what we're doing. What if we

rename it? I know they all hate it, but

what if we call it something different?

>> They'll never know.

>> Yes. It's not Satan. It's Bob. I I I

don't know what else to do. So, 190

horsepower, but it's a smaller form

factor. It's going to be a little bit

lighter. And don't think of this as your

track car. This is the doit all.

>> That is brand new. Again, warranty. It's

going to run. It's going to be fine. You

commute in this and you're going to want

to take bikes with this

>> and you're going to save money. So, my

point with this is this is smart money.

>> Yeah.

>> Because it's full commuter. It's

something different. It's wagon.

Nobody's doing wagons and the K4 hatch.

I mean, I don't know if they're going to

ever do a really true performance

version. I doubt it, but still, we can

hope. But this, as it is, is great

looking and it's smart money, which

leaves you room to build, as you

suggested, Todd,

>> your version of what you want your track

car to be. And that should be a built

Cayman because now when people ask you

as a Porsche driving coach, what do you

drive? You can say, "Well, I've got my

commuter

>> and that's it's fine for traffic. It's

fuel efficient. It was inexpensive. It

runs. I'm going to I count on it all the

time. Easy to park. Actually looks

pretty good. Fills my needs."

>> Sure. Sure.

>> But my track car is a Cayman with all

the things. Whatever you What do you

>> What is the power shock?

Yeah, that's good. I like it.

>> And that is your track car. This is the

smart money to save you money, but it's

new enough and inexpensive enough. Of

course, low power, but don't think of it

in terms of

>> he's commuting, though.

>> You're commuting. You're not going to

use high horsepower and track handling

anything in your 25 mile

>> poking along commute.

>> You're not going to use it anyway.

>> True.

>> So, embrace that. And even still, this

will be great for road trips, great for

>> bicycles. You have been surprisingly

mature in this conversation. I'm very

impressed. I'm very impressed.

>> But it leaves room to spend all the rest

of your money.

>> Yes. on a built Cayman track car because

you're a Porsche driving coach.

>> I like how Paul didn't recommend a

Cayman and still had an ability to

recommend a Cayman. That was That's

really very impressive. That's really

excellently well done. I I have a couple

for you, Constantine. First off, I do

want to talk about the Golf R and GTI. I

think for your usage, just get the GTI.

I don't I don't think that the benefit

of the Golf R makes any sense for your

usage, especially if this car isn't

primarily a track car. you're wanting

all of the benefits that the GTI offers

that the Golf R doesn't offer that much

more of. And if you really decide, I

wish I had a bit more power. There are

many wellestablished Volkswagen tuners

that can get you more power on your GTI.

I cannot argue against the GTI at all.

>> I think it's an option at Starbucks if

you want like a latte and a tune for

your GTI. They probably

>> probably just anywhere you go.

>> You can do it as a drive-thru. They just

plug into the OBD port while you're

waiting on your latte.

>> Grocery store. It's like perfect.

>> Altoids, bubblegum,

>> tune, GTI tune, gym tune. It's perfect.

We are we are having some fun today.

Anyway, so I I look, I can't argue

against the GTI or even the Golf R, even

though I think the GTI is better, but I

just when I read your email, I just

don't sense you want one.

>> That's the big thing. I feel like you're

going, this is what answers the

question, and I don't want it. So, I'm

going to give a couple of arguments here

for a car that you haven't really talked

about that is close to one you did talk

about, and that is the Elantra N. Now,

you probably aren't considering it

because it doesn't have a hatch. And

you're right, it doesn't have a hatch,

but you could still hold bikes on the

top of this, I think, because it doesn't

have a center uh exhaust pipe. There's

probably people that are making a very

simple hitch mount. You could put bikes

on that because bikes are a big thing

for you. Yes, it's frontwheel drive. You

consider the Veloster. This is the

generation kind of after the Veloster.

So, the interior got better and they

sell it with a DCT.

>> It has a It is a very usable car. And we

have had recently at Hooked on Driving,

we had an opportunity for many of our

instructors that had not driven Hyundai

cars to be in with students that had

were driving Hyundai end cars. And to a

person, our instructors get out and go,

"Those end cars are awesome." We've

heard a lot of people that are our

coaches make really complimentary

comments on the quality of an Elantre in

on track.

>> Yeah.

>> But you get in, it's got good seats. The

performance seats in the Elantre N give

you more rear seat space than the normal

seats. The seats are excellent.

>> They're thinner.

>> They're thinner and they're awesome, but

they have they have so much grip.

They're really great.

>> This has all the modern tech you need.

Now, it is not a luxury interior, but

compared to like the Corolla,

it's every bit as luxurious as you ever

need. Okay, this is this is almost it's

a different I think the luxury feel

versus a Golf I would just describe as

different, not worse.

The Hyundai is a flashier interior.

>> Yeah.

>> And there's places where they've saved

money. The Golf is more subdued, but

there's lots of places where they've

saved money in that as well. And

Volkswagen's always done a really really

good job. Seriously. But also Volkswagen

does a really good job of like the stuff

down low by your ankles is really cheap,

but it gets nicer the higher it gets up.

They do a great job with Strata in their

interiors. They're phenomenal about

that. The the the stuff like the pockets

down low, it's like that's awfully

flimsy.

>> Layer cake.

>> Seriously, yes. It's you see the icing

and the icing is good. It's very nice.

But no, the the Cantra has an excellent

interior with all the modern tech you

want and I think you would be very

impressed with this. Yes, it is not the

hatchback you're looking for in that

style, but I think you would be

pleasantly surprised by the Elantre. And

that is my primary thing. And then my

wild card you mentioned, and I go there

because

>> it's it's not quite what I want you to

get in, but I think you're talking

around it, Constantine.

>> And that is a Macan, a used Macan. And

here's why I say it. You're looking for

a car that you drive at work, which is a

Porsche feel, but you want a hatchback.

We've joked about it forever. This is

Porsche's hatchback. And I also thought

about this. Don't spend 50 grand. Spend

35. Get a used Macan because if anything

goes wrong, the guys at work can tell

you how to fix it, and they probably

would give you a deal on getting it

fixed.

>> That's true. They're they're going to

know people.

>> Well, exactly. So, I know the answer. I

think you could get a Macan.

>> Yeah.

>> With probably less fear for keeping it

running than most people that would buy

a used Macan because you're dealing with

Porsche mechanics who are dealing with

cars that are getting beat on every day.

>> Mhm.

>> So, I think you could buy a Macan, wind

up with the hash hatchback you want in

in style, the luxuries that you want.

You didn't spend your full budget. This

is the golf you're hoping for.

>> Plus, you can get a license tag that

says coach.

>> You can. Yes. I mean, like, I work for

Porsche. I'm a driving coach for

>> He can get the the the license plate

surround and he can get he could really

make this up obnoxious. But anyway, but

but I think here's the thing. Depending

upon your Macan, you'll be surprised

with it on a back road. You take some of

the twisties around LA, I think the

Macan could really surprise you. But

ultimately, to what you said, Paul, this

is a commute car. And I think this gets

it done. And everybody at the office is

going to be like, "You bought a Macan.

Good for Not that that's the reason to

do it, but again, if something broke on

the way to work, you can ask people. I'm

just saying you might be the best used

Macan buyer situation ever. I think so.

Anyway, that's where I ended up.

>> Constantine, thank you for your

question. Thank you for writing to us.

If you've got a debate like Constantine,

write to us [email protected].

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You and I are just running along today.

I don't know that we're going to get to

car conclusions, but we have another car

debate that we're going to talk about

right now, which is Alex writing in for

the Goldilocks family car.

>> Did you see the through line?

Constantine was asking for a Goldilocks

car, and so is Alex.

>> I like it. I like it. What's interesting

is Alex just moved back to Utah. He's

had doesn't currently have he's had a

4.7 Maserati Gran Turismo. That's the

reason I think you picked this one,

Paul. But anyway, a 2011 Cadillac CTS-V,

an Audi SQ5, and a Lexus IS- 350 as his

variable fun cars. The Maserati was too

heavy. The CTS-V was sold as its

straight line speed was its one-trick

pony. I want to submit to you that the

Cadillacs have gotten better since then,

>> but I do get that

>> it was going to put him in jail or an

early grave. So, that's why the Cadillac

went. He thought the SQ5 would be the

perfect family car, but the timing chain

issues quickly led to a $8,000

bill,

and the IS- 350 was bit tight for him at

6'2 with kids in the back seats. So,

he's looking for the new car now that

he's back in Utah. Welcome back. That he

can still have fun on solo drives, but

could use as the alt family car because

his wife has the normal family car 2019

Honda Pilot. So, what $20,000? Here's

where it gets hard. $20,000 car works.

He doesn't really want a European car

because the Audi's have got him spooked

on European cars.

>> $8,000.

>> $20,000 for his new one after an $8,000

bill on that Audi. Yikes. There's a lot

of people in Park City. A lot of my

neighbors have SQ5s.

>> It seems like I see SQ5s everywhere. Are

they all in for an $8,000 repair bill?

>> I think it depends on if the Chinese

>> Should I let them know?

>> I don't think you should. All right.

Well, I appreciate the email. Thank you

so much, Alex, for writing.

>> He says, "Do I go for an Infiniti Q50,

GS 350, all-wheel drive, a WRX? What are

their options? Is he missing or

dismissing unfairly?"

>> I could make you the argument for you

being hesitant of European cars simply

because of reliability. But I cannot

argue with your experience. True. And

you certainly have had that. But he's

wanting something performance. The the

$20,000 budget cap was really difficult.

>> I agree. Yeah. But I'm going to push on

that just a little because that's what I

do here.

>> That is what you do here. You are very

good at that part. Yes.

>> I want you to have something new and I

want you to have something, Alex, that

you are confident on full winters in

Utah.

>> This is the front-wheel drive Acura

Integra, the new one that drives really

well. It's an excellent car. Knew they

were 36. So by, you know, we're talking

maybe 30, just under 30, so high 20s

right now. But if we're talking Integra,

I've got to mention the Civic SI. You

don't necessarily specify manual

transmission or auto. The Civic SI is

only manual transmission, but what a

great fun car. And these were when we

tested this, this was $28,000 brand new,

so I bet you could find these for 25

high or I guess low 20s at this point.

But uh

>> shocking amount of space in these.

>> Yeah, fantastic space. sitting up front

at 63 could absolutely put an adult

behind us in the lowly little Civic.

I've never been I've never seen another

car that deals with the space so well.

>> Now, not all-wheel drive, but I think

went full winters on a Civic SI, you

would be perfectly fine. But you did

bring up the WRX, and as much as I've

continued to look at this car, and I'm

not the biggest fan of the styling,

>> I think it's a viable choice. I think

it's absolutely a great fun car. Is it

the most fun car that you've ever

driven? Well, no. It's not the straight

line speed that you're looking for, but

I guess that's in your past now, too.

>> So, for something with all kinds of

different variable conditions that we

have in Utah, all the stuff that you can

throw at a car, you can I mean, this WRX

that I'm showing is is shown on a little

bit of a gravel road, so near near a

lake. And I think this could be a great

fun car. You've got transmission

options. They're new, so you've got a

lot of amenities.

Plenty of space for the kids. I mean,

it's it's almost tall like an SUV, even

though this technically is a car. This

is a sedan.

>> True. This is one of those Yeah.

>> I think we're back to recommending WRXs

because this one is superb for the uses

you're looking for.

>> Very good for his needs. I do.

>> And for 20 grand, again, I'm going to

push on your budget a little, but I want

you to have something a little bit

newer. So, can you justify something in

the mid20s range

>> with some of these? You might be looking

at some high 20s, but I want to push on

you because I know that you'll you'll be

happier. You'll be loving your car more.

I mean, turbocharging, all-wheel drive.

We're we're back to recommending WRX's

in my opinion.

>> And this this is the last true

enthusiast car left in the traditional

Subaru lineup. I say traditional because

BRZ is not really what Subaru does.

>> I love it.

>> SUV, SUV, SUV.

>> Everything has all-wheel drive. And

here's this guy over here, rear wheel

drive. Yeah.

>> Very weird. So, you know, but this is of

a traditional Subaru thinking. This is

the last fun thing left. Yeah. And it is

worthwhile. I'm glad that you defended

the WRX because I think of his choices.

Look, the Q50 and the GS 350 all-wheel

drive both are solid for sure. I think

the WRX is just a little more quirky fun

and it's partially because it's just

smaller than those other two. So, I

think that's a really worthwhile one.

I'm going to first off go someplace you

didn't go at all, Alex, but I'm going to

go there and that is the Dodge Charger.

used in all-wheel drive.

I did not see that coming. This is a fun

dad car. Now, you can't get the fun

Hemi, but let's be honest, there's a lot

of Dodge Chargers here driven by a lot

of officers of the law. They drive them

in all conditions, but you can get

there's a lot of them out there. I found

everything from 2014s to 2020s below

$25,000. Huge mileage range between like

50,000 mi and 150,000 mi. So, obviously

shop carefully, but chase something with

good reliability and good records. But a

Dodge Charger, tons of space that now I

will admit this is not an agile car.

This is one of those cars that it's more

agile than you expected. It's that this

is a big car. It's a big Seriously, it's

a big car, but in all-wheel drive, I

think this would be a fantastic

all-weather dad car. I'm a big fan of

this for you. Again, this is We already

talked about the WRX. You defended that

very well, Paul. So, that one is already

on my list. But this Charger, I think,

is a really good option. And then I'm

going to go into wild card territory

because

you said no Europeans.

But Alpha Julia in Q4.

>> The Q4 is all-wheel drive.

>> Good.

>> This is the one that you're actually

looking for, Alex, because yes, it's a

European brand under Stalantis, whatever

they're defined as, Stellentarians. But

this four-cylinder I've defended a lot

as being more powerful than the specs

suggest. Even in base trim, this is an

incredibly fun sedan to drive. I think

that's a superb choice. Q4 gives you

all-wheel drive, decent back seat space.

It is a goodlooking car. It isn't cuz

look, the Charger looks like all of the

police officers. The WRX looks like the

the official car of Utah. The Giulia

stands out and the driving quality

stands out. You can get the Q4 in the TI

or the Sport. It is a base model. There

are tons of these out there for under

$25,000. I only I that was my cap on

AutoTist was $25,000 and there were tons

nationwide and there were some in the

high teens, lots in the high teens. I

think the Alfield Julia is your play

because I know there are some of you

right now that are typing about the fact

that Julia are unbelievably unreliable.

Not in the experience of the people that

have talked to us. Certainly not in the

base models. Now, we've known some

people with Quadrifogios that have had

some issues, but most of the base cars

that we've known, people have just

bought them and driven them and they

just worked.

>> So, we heard about some battery issues

that led to electrical failures in the

first year, but I think these are

underappreciated. They're certainly

undervalued. I think this is your dad

car.

>> I think that's a You did it, Julia.

>> Excellent. You did.

>> Quadrifoglio, the four cylinder. You're

looking for the Q4. Search by all-wheel

drive. You can just search buy all-wheel

drive specifically on autotempus.com/

everyday and you can pull up a ton of

these. I say go get a Julia, Alex. All

right, Alex, you've got some shopping to

do, some buying to do. Let us know what

you get. Carcl conclusions

[email protected].

>> We're going to jump to questions real

quick. We've only got a few, but we're

already running about an hour and a

half, which is awesome. We just love

being here with you guys. Thank you for

watching. Thank you for making comments.

Please rate and review the podcast. not

just pass on the YouTube video if you're

watching on YouTube, but also rate and

review the podcast on Spotify, on Apple

uh podcast, wherever it is that you're

taking this in. Please leave us a

comment because that's how other people

find us. There are so many people that

write to us and say, "I've just found

your podcast by looking up automotive

podcast." I love that and that's because

you guys give good ratings. So, thank

you. I'm going to start with a Lotus

question from Dami.

>> Okay.

>> Dami wrote in on Facebook and says, "Do

we plan to review the new Emirra Turbo

SE? Would you feel cheated if you bought

the regular Amir Turbo and this was

being released so relatively soon

afterward? Dami, we are not going to

review it because, and it gets

confusing.

The Turbo SE is essentially the same as

what they actually sold as the

four-cylinder turbo in the US. Now, if I

were in the UK and I bought a

four-cylinder turbo, the AMG version of

the launch edition, which had 360

horsepower in the UK, and now they're

releasing the SE with 400 horsepower. I

might be a little frustrated because

they refined the gearbox

and they gave it more power, but all the

US ones came over that way. It took so

long to get the car qualified to be sold

in the US that by the time they released

it in the US, they'd given it a

horsepower bump to 400 horsepower, which

matches my V6 and a little bit more

torque than my V6. If you watch our

Amira, my Amir one-year ownership video,

we actually have the two cars together.

>> It is the slightly more powerful,

slightly faster version of the Amira is

the four-cylinder turbo.

>> The only way they sold it in the US was

the more powerful version. It still has

same suspension. It's it the slightest

of tweaks, okay? And they revised many

of the issues that they had with the

original four-cylinder, but now if you

go on the website, it is the Amira Turbo

SE being sold in the UK and elsewhere. I

think if I were somebody that bought it

in Europe, I'd be kind of like, "Thanks

for refining the car." But in the US,

it's sixes, so I'm not sure there's a

good reason for us to review the car.

>> On Instagram, the Toxic Taco asks, "Our

opinion on front light bars. Why do they

seem exclusive to EVs? And how did that

become an EV signature? And why do

almost all of them look cheap or an

afterthought? Well, you're absolutely

right on that.

>> It's been evolutionary

>> for the light bar to evolve from just

the signature lighting on all kinds of

cars, gas powered EVs. Everybody

discovered this lighting technology and

wanted something recognizable to meet

DRL requirements, but also something

that stands out, that makes our car

instantly recognizable that is beyond

just the face, the headlight shape, the

grill, the mouth,

>> the face of the car,

>> that signature lighting. Remember, we

went through that phase where it seems

like everybody's trying to land on their

signature. How that looks.

>> What is our sweep?

>> What does that look like? From the angel

eyes for BMW to the the slash for

Corvette to Audi doing it. Everybody's

trying to

>> They've got the Nike swoosh Lexus. Yeah,

totally.

>> The Ford F350s, it's this giant C-shape,

you know, it encompasses the entire

headlight. It looks menacing coming.

>> You're inside my parenthesis. Here I

come for you. Yes.

>> Yes. So, that evolved to EVs and then I

I don't know exactly which car did it

first, but it it makes it seem like

there's a lot going on. There's there's

light, there's energy, there's force,

there's power

>> coming out of this car. And that

suggested a different look than just

simply two headlights with a grill in

the middle.

>> And the reason they did that is because

you don't have to have an air intake on

EVs. You don't have to have that front

giant grill with a radiator behind it.

>> So, it left designers open to try to

fill the space

>> and think, okay, what can we do? What if

we continued that light bar all across

all the way across the front? I mean,

Porsche did this back in the '9s with

the rear light signature. It was that

rear strip, and then they've, of course,

embraced that. But then, what about this

face? Let's kind of fill the front with

something. It's got to go up there.

Otherwise, we're just

>> sculpting the original Tesla Model S.

>> It had that grill, but then the Model 3

came out. It was just a a shape, and so

it left it faceless. It didn't say

>> something. So with this, you could

indicate light, power, energy, and all

of those things that indicate what they

want their EV to be. But of course, it's

just evolved into

>> a bar. And now I'm hearing things like

the bar is got to be behind us soon

because this is it does look cheap. It

looks overplayed.

>> It doesn't look original.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It'd be interesting to see

how it plays out. I mean, we we can do

anything we want with lighting now. the

actual amount of space you need to throw

the proper amount of light is now tiny.

And so I almost feel like designers are

struggling to figure out this is what's

happened with the daytime running

lights. Daytime running lights are where

we play. The actual headlights to throw

your real light might be these tiny

little ports. Now it's amazing how much

light they can throw.

>> The problem is people forgot to turn on

their lights if they don't have it set

on automatic because the DRLs throw

enough light and you've got an

electroluminescent display that you

think your lights are on and it's not

throwing it far enough. The cars can see

you. You can't really see too many too,

you know, too far down the road.

>> It's not a good thing.

>> If you are any driving anywhere in the

nation near an airport, this is where

you will see people driving without

their lights on because they just rented

that car and they don't realize that the

lights aren't on because the screen's

shining at them. It's enough. I see it

all the time around the Salt Lake

airport. Last question for me, field

photography said, "What car opened our

eyes to the joys and importance of car

handling and dynamics?" For him, it was

the NC Miata he got last July. makes his

Jetta Sport Wagon TDI feel like a bus. I

had two in my life that really shaped my

driving. And this is before, look, I I

will acknowledge the first time I drove

a Lotus Elise, I went, "What is this

now?" Okay, that was the pinnacle that

like I didn't know a car could do this.

But before that, as you and I before

coming into this show, there were two

cars that really shaped me in handling

dynamics. Cuz again, if you've heard

this show before, my dad owned every

possible variant of a Caprice Classic.

Chevrolet, late 70s, early 80s, the cop

cars of that era, and we all got

handme-down capriases,

>> over boosted steering.

>> We all got hand-me-down, so big American

iron. Okay, that was my life experience.

But after I got married through a series

of random events, we needed a car in a

short period of time, and we bought for

a fairly inexpensive amount of money.

The first front-wheel drive and European

car I'd ever owned was an Audi 90. What

eventually became the Audi A4, but the

Audi 90 was tiny. Remember that car?

Frontwheel drive. You had it a like a

year?

>> Yes. A little less than a year.

>> I had this Audi 90. So, it's frontwheel

drive and really small.

>> Yeah.

>> Like almost as small as the R53 Mini.

Like it's a pretty compact car. Yeah.

>> And it drove completely unlike anything

else I'd ever driven. Cuz at the time,

prior to that, my wife had a Jeep

Wrangler and I had a firstg

manual Ford Explorer. These were our two

cars.

>> That's right.

>> That had been her car. Those were our

two cars.

We had two manuals. Yes, we had two

manuals.

>> And then I went into this, which was

automatic, front-wheel drive,

>> small, European,

>> totally different feel. And driving that

every day, commuting through Los Angeles

through all the windy roads and all that

kind of stuff was like, okay, this is

what small and light does. Okay. And

then when I sold that car, I got my

first 300ZX.

>> Wasn't the turbo, was automatic, but it

was a sports car rearwheel drive. small

sports car handling compared to anything

else I'd driven. And I liked that car so

much. It influenced me so much that I

started doing a 200 mile at least drive

every Sunday morning. I would because it

was LA. I would drive at least 50 miles

to get to the good road. Do like 100

miles on good roads and then drive my

way home. Still a commute in that car

all week. But that car was the first car

that was like proper dynamics. And it's

funny to have gotten back in the 300

years later and to realize that

comparatively it's kind of big and GT-

like, but compared to everything I've

driven prior to that, it was so shaping.

So those two cars for sure put me down a

road. And let's be honest, driving the

300ZX is what led to the inspiration for

wanting to do this show. That's how it

marked me. It's very cool.

>> That's interesting cuz that car is on my

list, too. Okay. It was the first time

you let me drive it.

>> That's cool.

>> All right. It wasn't long after you got

the car and you said, "I've got this

thing." We we we did it. We pulled the

trigger. We bought it. Can you believe

this thing? You've got to drive it. And

it was on 18s.

>> You know it. Whoa. 18.

>> Huge wheels and tires.

>> Classic wheels. Wow. These are crazy

wheels. Yeah.

>> Took it up some back road in Burbank

somewhere.

>> And it was revoly.

>> Super fun.

>> Didn't care that it was automatic.

Doesn't matter. But I was driving Honda

Accords up to that point and hooning the

crap out of them on back roads. And then

this was proper dynamics and I went, "Oh

my gosh, this is what sports cars can

be." And then it was the first 928 that

I had. It was the GT feel. It also

handled well. It actually handles a lot

better than the one that I have now.

>> But that car was just special. It was

Porsche's top car

>> and it was in really great condition and

I really love that car. It was faster,

better than anything that I had ever

driven. And then from there we started

getting in a series of lightweight cars

that Pontiac Solstice. It's like we

started getting in and then we drove a

Boxster and then

>> started getting and finding more and

more lightweight cars and then the first

time the GT86 came out and we went oh my

gosh

>> yeah light is such a big

>> S2000

>> Mazda RX8 you know for sure that Genesis

and it just continued from there. So

>> I love it

>> crazy the progression.

>> Thank you guys for being with us. We

didn't get to everything we wanted to

get to. That's how much conversation and

great topics we've had today but it's

still been very fun.

>> Thank you all for watching for

listening. We really appreciate it. You

can find us on Spotify video and Spotify

audio as well. And of course YouTube.

You might be watching this on YouTube as

well. We really appreciate your

comments, your feedback. Send us your

ideas for all of the above. You know

what they are. Topic Tuesdays, car

conclusions, car debates. And we're

looking forward to next time. Cheers

everyone.

[Music]

Enthusiasts Have Ruined Cars, What Do Driving Coaches Drive, The Goldilocks Car | Episode 1,012

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