Limited-edition specials and why they might be overrated #286

Welcome back to the Intercooler podcast

everybody. The podcast powered by car

finance specialist JBR Capital. Um what

do we do recently? Cars of the people.

>> Yeah. So should we go the other way this

time?

>> Let's go the exact opposite direction.

Yeah.

>> Uh this is the specials. Um what are we

talking about? The sort of the special

rare um tricked up versions of already

often already quite spicy performance

cars.

>> Yeah. And often limited editions.

>> Yeah. Um, and I'm going to Can I just

put something out there from the very

start?

>> I don't think there's a breed of car

more overrated

>> than specials.

>> Do you know what? I used to

I used to think that some of my favorite

cars were the specials that we're going

to discuss, but I'm sort of changing my

mind now because

>> the the the great cars are designed from

a clean sheet of paper to be a certain

thing.

>> Mhm.

>> And these are not that. They're all

spin-offs.

>> Yeah,

>> they're all spin-offs. And sometimes,

often, I would say, um, and, you know,

this isn't to say these aren't also

great cars, but

the limitations, the drawbacks they

bring, you know, in certain areas so

that they can be even better in other

areas provide compromises which to me

don't add up to a better car.

>> Interesting. Okay, we'll we'll assess

that point of view as we

>> having said that I'm going to spend the

next hour going on about how wonderful

these things are, [laughter]

>> but but there are lots of I mean there

are there are clearly some which do

improve upon the original, but there are

so many and it was just interesting. It

was just researching this that I kind of

thought well yeah but actually so often

I'd just rather have the normal one.

>> Interesting. Um well let's come back

come back to that. I mean we are there

is a hook here, isn't it? Isn't there?

There's um there's a car that we're sort

of hanging this whole thing on.

>> How much how much do we know about this

car or how much are we allowed to know

about this car?

>> Not a lot at the moment. Only that it's

coming and it's going to it's going to

be quite different.

>> We believe so.

>> So, there is a new Bentley um a as we

understand it a limited series Bentley

on the way.

>> Um

>> do we know what it's called?

>> Uh

>> just in case we don't know what it's

called, let's speculate they're going to

call it the Super Sports.

>> Yeah, they haven't. They've done that

before.

>> They've teased this car. They've shown

some teaser images and it clearly it's

it's based on a Continental GT.

>> Don't call it a Continental Super

Sports. You'll get into all sorts of

trouble. I did that once. Don't want to

do that again.

>> Okay, don't do that. So, it's um

>> it's clearly based on a Continental GT,

but you can tell there's a you know,

there's a wing on the back and bits of

body work look different. So, it's I

think it's going to be quite special.

But, as we understand it, there are some

quite significant changes under the skin

that will make it really quite different

to the car it's derived from.

>> Such as, do we want to say? No,

>> I don't think we do.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay. Let's look at it from

another. What do we want this regardless

of what it turns out to be? Yeah. Okay.

>> Because we apparently don't know that.

>> Um, what do what would we want this car

to? What do we want a Bentley Super

Sports to be? Okay. There's one word in

my head.

>> Lighter.

>> Yeah. So, we Exactly. So, if it is going

to be called super sports, clearly it

needs to be a really super sporting

version of it. And job one is take

weight out of it, isn't it? Wouldn't it

be great if they also took a couple of

drive shafts out of it, too?

>> Oh, rear drive.

>> Yeah,

>> not front wheel drive. [laughter]

>> Well, you got a front wheel drive super.

That would be an interesting cell, but

that would be a obviously that would

help hugely with the weight saving, but

it would just be it would be such a good

statement of intent, wouldn't it?

>> It would show a sense of humor as well.

Yeah,

>> there aren't many car companies doing

radical things like that. Yeah, but you

could, you know, this would be the

first. Okay, so actually the current um

hybrid Continental GT because of where

the battery pack is, um it's now a

properly balanced car and you can skid

that about. But you if they did a rear

drive super sports and I can't emphasis

enough that this is not something that

um that we know. Um wouldn't that be

amazing?

>> Could be. Blime me. I hadn't thought

about it.

>> So how would you get all that weight out

of it? So they're all There's no W12

anymore, is there?

>> No. Okay. But the the V8 is still quite

heavy. I mean, you'd be surprised at how

little weight difference there is

between the W12 and the the W12 and the

V8. It's about 50 kilos. Not a big deal.

>> They're all hybrid, aren't they?

>> They're all hybrid. Yeah. But I get

Could you ditch the hybrid?

>> Don't know.

>> You'd save a lot of weight. you save a

massive amount of weight because you

save the motor, but also you think of

not just the the motor and the battery

pack, but all the gubbins that goes with

it, all the cooling, all the pipe work,

all the electronic units and that sort

of thing. Um, yeah, what else could you

I guess I mean it depends how many they

want to build. It depends how far they

want to go, but you know, you could do

carbon fiber body parts, couldn't you?

and all the usual things. You could you

could put absolutely everything on the

optional extras list

>> as no cost options

>> um to at least create a

>> uh the illusion of a car that is

extremely light. Um

I just I hope they do. I mean okay the

super sports so I think they've have

they done two previously.

>> Well that's right. And they were not

radically different were they? Well,

they Well, they was it the first one

which was a two-seater or they both two-

seaters?

>> Well, there was the GT3R which was a

two-seater. Yeah.

>> Which is a different thing.

>> Yeah. I mean, these were Okay. So, these

to me are examples of cars which

probably Okay. They mean they were

funnier and they were faster and they

probably sounded better. But if I think

of what I want from that kind of car,

um, they probably didn't necessarily, I

mean, dynamically they would have

massively improved on the originals, but

you know, only at the cost of

considerable additional expense and

removal of um, sort of comfort and

practicality. Um, and in my view that if

you're going to go down that road, go

down that road. Do it properly. You get

all the weight out, get rid of the drive

shaft, do a proper hooligan Bentley. I'd

love that. Hooligan Bentley.

>> Wouldn't that be cool? And wouldn't that

just be such a Yeah, because we know at

the moment, don't we, the Bentley is

caught in a bit of a a product trough in

so far as, you know, the cars they've

got, the Bentega, the Continental GT,

and the Flying Spur are not in the first

flash of youth. Um, and we know that

there is this new what they call urban

EV coming in 2027. Um, but we're not

even out 2025 yet. M

>> um and you know, Bentley is obviously

keen to keep itself um in the headlines,

keen to show that it is still doing new

and interesting stuff. And what a great

particularly I guess, and I've already

just thought of this, if you're doing an

EV, do you not need something to balance

that out and just say, "Actually, guys,

we still get it. We're doing this EV and

that's fine. We hope that we sell loads

and loads and loads." But for you people

out there who really

think of Bentley as being a car for a

certain sort of driver, well, you can

have a look at this.

>> Well, that's right. Bentley always needs

to have something of the

>> particularly as particularly as they

appear to be the only premium

manufacturer in the world who's not

racing at the moment.

>> Yeah, they absolutely need something. We

were talking to someone quite recently

very very familiar with the British sort

of luxury and sports car manufacturing

sector. Maybe we'll get him on soon but

he was telling us that you'll sit in

meetings um ideas meetings I guess and

the first people to talk will be I can't

remember what department he said but

call it compliance

>> and compliance will talk and

list all these things that you simply

can't do for all these reasons. Yeah.

And all the energy is just sucked out of

the room.

>> Yeah. And so

>> and and even before you've opened your

mouth, you're sitting there thinking,

"Oh, what's the bloody point?"

>> Yeah, it does sound really

dispiritating.

>> Um but if Bentley can come up with

something truly radical and exciting,

then wonderful.

>> The thing is it'll sell. If they if they

did a

super sports that I don't know weighed I

don't know if they could get it under

two tons, maybe that's a pipe dream. Um,

but if it did and it was really good fun

and it was rear drive and it did

enormous skids and it was very very

cool. Um, guarant I don't know how I

mean unless the pricing was crazy if

they priced it properly they'd sell

them.

>> They would

>> they absolutely would and it would be it

could you know it could become a sort of

cult type car and you know and it's been

so long since they've done anything like

that. Have they ever done anything like

that? Um, you know, I think back to

things like the [snorts]

uh, well, not the Anar T. What was the

other one? U, the Continental T. Do you

remember about the short wheelbase? They

did a short wheelbase version of the

Continental R,

>> um, which was absolutely bonkers and had

no ride quality at all,

>> but it was uh, it was a proper Bentley

hot rod. We love those. [snorts]

>> The GT3R is probably the most radical

Bentley there has been in recent years.

It was a two-seater. Um, you know,

decent weight saving, but still

four-wheel drive and

>> still owed a lot to the car it was based

on.

>> Um, maybe this new one will be a step

beyond even that. Um, so these are the

specials. Yeah, the the special often

limited edition variants of existing

sports and performance cars. Um, let's

not get bogged down in GT 911s.

>> Great cars, you know, we love them, but

we talk about them a fair bit.

>> We we do. Yeah, I mean the only thing

the only sort of way that they they are

tangentially relevant to audio is

obviously there's an entire category of

specials which come under the uh title

of homologation

>> specials

>> and and and the GT cars were you know

that's that was they are an example

actually of a car that was conceived to

be a homologation special um which has

gone on to go on and have a life far far

beyond that. Um things like E30 M3s.

>> Yeah. Another example,

>> integrals.

>> Yeah. Of cars which were designed for

one purpose and proved to be so popular

they went on to have, you know, lives

far far beyond um what was maybe

initially expected, but certainly were

certainly beyond what was required to

homologate them for the competition

purpose they were intended for.

>> Um there's also an entirely new category

of special that perhaps we'll dive into

the the off-road sports car. That's a

recent phenomenon. Um

>> Oh yeah, there I've got them on here.

>> Yeah, we'll come back to those. Um, so

[sighs] I mean, how far back do you want

to go? Do you think this it's actually

quite a recent thing?

>> Well, you and I were um a couple of

weeks ago at Bista Motion and I saw an

old Porsche 924

>> coming towards us.

>> Yeah. It drove past

>> and I was looking at think, okay, so

it's clearly a Carrera GT. It's a 924

Carrera GT. And then I thought, hang on,

no, it's not. It's a GTS. M

>> that one little letter a 94 Carrera GT

um was a moleation special but the sort

of the really gun version which I think

I can't remember the groups but the GTS

amolated the car to be able to race in a

higher category they made 50 of them um

Derek Bell has one um and you can tell

cuz they don't have pop-up they've got

sort of clear

>> lenses they have pop-up headlights and

they're very rare and that's from the

what the early 1980s. So, they've been,

you know, they've been knocking about

for

>> um for a long time. I think the Ferrari

288 GTO or GTO as it's properly called

um was a homologation car for a car that

in the end it didn't need homologating.

Well, actually, let's go back further.

Let's go back to the original GTO, the

250 GTO.

>> Yeah.

>> Which, you know, it's in the title.

>> You know, the O of GTO stands for a

molato.

>> Yeah. Um, and I mean that car was a bit

of a fiddle because they produced the

250 short wheelbase in 1960 and 61. Um,

and you know, it it did win.

It was the most competitive car of it

era. Uh, but they wanted a much quicker

version. And so basically they designed

a racing car called the 250 GTO and

said, "Oh, no, it's just a tweaked

version of that." And if you looked at

it or anything of specification, you

know damn well it's gone. It's not it's

nothing of the sort.

>> Yeah.

>> Um but I think I I I I imagine I have a

faint memory that when they went not

sure about this, I think Enzo did his

usual sort of dummy spit um and

threatened to withdraw everything from

everywhere and surprise surprise it got

himated. They did, I think,

try to so the successor to the 250 GTO

was the 250 LM and I think they tried

the same game with that and they did get

told to shove it there because that

apart from anything else was mid engine

and I don't think that you could

possibly say that if you design a brand

new car and the engine's not even

anywhere near it where it used to be

that that's somehow a

>> a homologated. So the so homologation

specialists have been going on for as

long as race organizers

um have been requiring a certain num

number of road legal cars to be provided

before you can go and race a car in a

certain kind of category.

>> Yeah, that's right. And actually I think

the specials that we're discussing, they

probably try to borrow some of the

prestige of from the homologation

special, don't they? They they tried to

lean into that. But typically the ones

we're discussing here are not

homologation cars.

>> Yeah. But there are so I mean so I've

written a list. Okay. These are just

some moleation cars. So the 94 GTS we've

discussed the E30N3 we discussed

previously. They were all those group B

rally cars.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> 205s, Lancia Deltas, Metros, um

>> Quattro.

>> Quattros. They're all short quattros.

They're all specials, aren't they?

>> Yeah, I think they are. But they're

proper, you know. This is pucker stuff,

isn't it? Real homologation, proper

motorsport breeding.

>> Lancia Stratos. Pure homologation

special.

>> Yeah.

>> Mega thing. Escort Cossworth Sierra

RS500. GR Yaris.

>> Yeah.

>> Homologgation car. Who remember that?

>> Absolutely.

>> Um BMW M1 250 G2 mid-enine Rena 5 Turbo

with the original

>> um Yeah. And 911 GT3. So there there are

no shortage of cars, but you those

aren't the cars that we that you want to

talk about.

>> Well, we can absolutely talk about them,

but there's there's two categories, I

suppose. That's what I'm saying. There's

the authentic stuff, the real

homologation stuff, and then there's the

the other sort that

>> sort of pretends to be like that, but

actually is I mean there's real

engineering going on there. Um, there

really is and often they are limited

edition, but they are not bred from the

racetrack.

>> No. Okay. What do you want to go with?

>> Um, do you want to do a bit more on the

homologation specials then? Is there do

you want to pick out a couple that we

really need to discuss at length?

>> Um,

>> rather than just mention.

Well, I mean, because I love it. Um, the

Stratos.

>> Yeah.

>> Um,

an amazing car. A car which so nearly

didn't get built. Um, because it didn't

start off as a Stratos. It started off

as a Baton concept car.

>> Um, and um, they literally had to go and

drive it into sort of Lancer HQ and bang

the desk and say, "Look, you need this.

You need this. You need this." And

eventually it got bu and then it went

and won absolutely everything

>> in rallying. Yeah. in rally. Um, and and

a roadgoing [snorts]

Stratos, uh, sadly I've never driven a

race one, but a roadgoing Stratos is one

of the most involving, hilarious cars

you could ever want to get in because

they just don't want to travel. You can

tell the heritage. You can tell exactly

because it just doesn't want to travel

in a straight line.

>> This is a car which had a wraparound

windscreen because they realized you'd

spend more time looking out the side of

the car than the front of it. This is a

car whose door bins are shaped to to

hold helmets. It's so focused. And of

course, it's got that gorgeous 2.4 L

Ferrari V6 engine in it. Um, and they

look utterly mad. I just I just

absolutely love a Stratos.

>> Yeah, they're great. They are great. Um,

where

give us one more homologation special.

Let's let's discuss one of those at

length and then we can perhaps move on.

>> Okay. Um, this is actually a really good

example of a homologation special that

went too far.

>> Mhm.

>> Um, my point of view here is not

reflected by the market where these

things are worth enormous amounts of

money. So, uh, Ford obviously

produced the Sierra Cossworth in when

was it 86 or 87?

Um, I think they had to make 5,000 of

those to moleate it for um, group A, I

think it would have been.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, racing and rallying and everything

else. And those cars were great. They

were affordable. They cost less than

£20,000. Um, they did 150 mph. Um, they

looked absolutely bonkers, three door

shells, massive wing on the back. Um,

but they were actually, I mean, you

know, I know this because I know people

who had them and ran and ran them as

daily drivers. were perfectly sensible,

usable

>> um everyday cars. Then they produced the

RS500 which they had to do because they

had my memory of it is they had to have

a bigger turbo because they needed like

over 500 horsepowers. This thing was

going and they could homologate it as a

modification of a pre-existing and pre

and prehomocated car. So that wasn't f

that wasn't a problem. But they made how

many RS these RS500s did they make? I'm

I'm guessing they made 500 of them.

Can't remember. Um

maybe that's the reason they call them

the RS500,

>> but they basically had no no more power

and road going for.

>> Okay.

>> Um but they were massively more

expensive. And I seem to remember they

just weren't as nice to drive. Um,

of course they've become legends because

the touring cars um that they that they

spawn, these bonkers things with 500

plus horsepower went on to win

everything and became the most

successful car of its type um of all.

Um,

and so, you know, their popularity and

the value of those cars because they're

very rare and because they have that

incredible racing pedigree um is, uh,

you know, not to be not to be denied.

But as things as a road car just to get

in and drive, you think to yourself,

well, this is costing a huge amount more

money, and I'm not sure it's nice to

it's as nice as a a standard

Sierra Cossworth. So,

>> yeah, and particularly the cars the

Sierra Cossworth went on to spawn, which

weren't homologation specials, like the

Sapphire Cossworth. Yeah, a rear drive

Sapphire Cossworth is a really

underrated car. It's a really, even the

four-wheel drive ones were nice,

>> but a rear drive Sapphire Cossworth is a

lovely car. Um, and I only ever drove

one RS500 on the road. I've driven a

race car, um, which is as nuts as you

could imagine. Um, and I was just

underwhelmed by it. I just couldn't see

where the extra value from a point of

view of a road car and somebody wanting

to use a car on the road. I just

couldn't see what what it was buying you

other than scarcity.

>> I suspect with homologation cars, that's

probably a running theme, particularly

the group B rally stuff that

they they weren't refined cars. I don't

mean as in NVH, noise, vibration,

harshness. I mean, the manufacturers

didn't spend a very very long time

making them absolutely as good as they

can be because they were built for a

purpose. They had to build a couple

hundred of them.

>> They would get a tick in a box from the

FIA and they could go rallying. So,

something like a an RS200 is probably a

pretty unpleasant road car.

>> I I I Okay, I haven't driven any of them

apart from So, I haven't driven an

RS200. I haven't driven a Metro. I'm

talking about the road cars version

here.

>> I haven't driven a 205 T16. haven't

driven a Delta S4.

>> Our friends at Gerorado and Co. did have

a Stradali Delta S4 in it.

>> Um, if they still got it, I'd love to go

and have a go. The only one I've driven

is the Quattro, which is the kind of

like the least changed of them, isn't

it?

>> Yeah,

>> because the others weren't even trying

to be related to the cars that um whose

badges they carried, whereas the Quattro

was a short wheelbase Audi Quattro. M

>> um and even that

um okay, the car I drove wasn't a great

example or wasn't a great example at the

time that I drove it.

>> It didn't blow my socks off.

>> Interesting.

>> And I think I know a couple of people

who have driven a 205 T-16, a road car

>> and they say it's quite underwhelming,

not that fast, quite crude.

>> Um

>> it's funny, isn't it?

>> But you you understand why, don't you?

Because they were built purely

>> to homologate the competition cars. That

was that. That's

>> these are cars that were built because

they had to be built.

>> Yeah.

>> And and maybe you maybe you think

yourself, well, we got to produce a

certain amount. I mean, how

>> how incentivized are you going to be to

do your absolute best

>> if you know, you're not building this

car because you want to build it because

it's a passion product or anything. You

[clears throat] you got to build it

because you don't if you don't build

them, you can't race those.

>> Yeah. And there's probably quite a short

time frame to get it done.

>> Yeah. Just get them out.

>> Okay. So, that's homologation specials.

Let's move it on to the the pure road.

>> Okay. showroom specials that don't have

that same breeding. There are lots of

them. Um, and we're not just talking

supercars because there are hothatches.

There are more affordable sports cars

that that qualify as well. Uh, where do

you want to go?

[laughter]

[gasps] Okay. I'm going to start

somewhere. You would I promise you you

could spend [clears throat] the rest of

your life trying to guess where I'm

going to start and you wouldn't get

there.

>> Far away then.

>> You honestly. Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. Okay, tell me when you get there.

>> You may not get there. You may not even

have heard of this. Oh god.

>> Only because not because you're a lymph

form, but because you just weren't you

probably weren't alive when they're out.

Okay. Volkswagen.

>> Yeah.

>> Polo.

>> Yeah.

>> Harley Quinn.

>> Yeah.

>> Do you know what I'm talking about?

>> Is that with the multicolored one?

>> Yeah.

>> So, it's okay. It's a special. They were

only They were only going to They were

only going to do a thousand of them.

>> Okay, fine.

>> I just thought I'd start just talking

performance cars then.

>> No, I thought just thought I'd start at

the Yeah. So basic I mean okay it's a

silly car.

>> It's it's hilarious that they ever built

that thing and sold it.

>> So anybody listening this doesn't know

what a polo Harley Quinn is. I could

spend the next five minutes describing

you but much better thing is just go and

stick it into Google and have a look at

it. But basically it's a bogo polo.

Absolutely no distinguishing features

whatsoever. Apart from the fact that

it's brilliant from Volkswag it cost

them no money to do.

>> Yeah. Because instead of, you know,

making a car all the same color, they

just, you know, because they would have

had a number of yellow doors and a

number of red roofs and a number of blue

bonnets and everything else and they

just grabbed one of everything and

instead of staying with one color, they

just stuck all the different colors on

one car.

>> Do you think it was random the colors,

the panels that you

>> I don't know. And I think there was a

market cuz I think they could be changed

and I think people got got bored of

those.

>> I want a red door.

>> So there was a market sort of saying,

"Yes, I you got a I'll trade you a blue

bonnet for a yellow tailgate.

>> [laughter]

>> Um,

>> okay. Good.

>> So, but the point about the hologram and

I looked this up, okay, is they were

going to do a thousand of them.

>> Yeah.

>> Limited edition special. They ended up

doing nearly 4,000 of them. They

actually worked really well. People

wanted it.

>> I can't remember if I tell you what, if

you turned up Oh, I could do this next

year.

>> Oh,

>> festival of the unexceptional.

>> Yeah.

>> Why have I even mentioned it?

>> Well, you've blown it now.

>> I've blown it now, haven't I? Festival

in a Harley Quinn.

>> That's a winner. Or is it too too

exceptional?

>> No, but it's not. It's incredibly

unexceptional. It's just a bloody polo.

There's there's not a single modified

part on it.

>> I wonder what they cost.

>> Are you looking it up?

>> No, I'm I won't do it now because it'll

take too long, but it's interesting to

know. It would be interesting to know.

>> I don't think you pay much money for a

hologram. I mean, you pay more than a

Polo, but from Volkswagen and I'll see

if I can find out.

>> It's such a brilliant business plan

because in terms of investment from

Volkswagen, you get this whole new car.

You get a limited edition. It's done

something which no other car in history

has ever done before. And your

investment in it is precisely no pounds

and no pence.

I just think it's absolute genius bit of

marketing. Um

>> Oh, this is interesting.

>> Go on. Don't tell me they're 20 grand.

>> So, a very very quick search. Yeah.

>> Um and

>> two have come up immediately. Actually,

there's quite a few up. 2,600 I can see

one for in Germany.

>> Okay.

But

I think there were different color

combinations but a limited number of

them because when you look at the

adverts you see yeah that one looks like

that one and then there's a different

one. That one looks like that one. So

the first two that come up have exactly

the same panels.

>> Okay.

>> But then you scroll down a bit and you

see some that are very very different.

>> Or maybe maybe they've done some

swapsies. Maybe it looks like it wasn't

entirely random is what I'm saying. But

anyway, £2,614

if you fancy going to Germany.

>> I mean, yeah. Well, we'll see you at the

festival next year.

>> Okay. Okay. I'm I'm going to put it out

there now. There's going to be a

Harleyquin at the festival next year.

>> Someone's going to have listened to this

and just thought to themselves, h well,

of course they will because they'll put

any there will certainly be a TI podcast

listener. They might even be a TI

subscriber. I'm going to be one of the

judges. I'll just make sure that it

wins.

>> Yeah. Okay, good. Well, that was a good

place to start. All right. Well, I feel

like maybe I should give you one then.

>> Get one then.

>> Um, [clears throat] slightly back on

topic.

>> Black Series Mercedes AMGs.

>> Oh, very good.

>> Um, some of them are cracking.

>> Yeah, but some of them are terrible.

>> Well, no, one of them was terrible.

>> Which? Oh, the SLK.

>> The SLK. The first one.

>> So, we we work um with Helen who does a

lot of our social media stuff. Yeah.

>> And her and her partner um have got a

CLK 63 Black Series.

>> Yeah. Um, and we saw it the other day,

didn't we? And that is a really

interesting car because it is flawed. If

we're if you look at it as a road

tester, right, steelely road tester, you

you realize that the steering is pretty

woolly. That the the body shell is

actually quite flexible. You can really

feel it flexing about.

>> You know, she listens to this podcast,

don't you?

>> Sorry, Helen. Sorry, Tommy. The um the

automatic gearbox,

>> yeah,

>> is pretty limited in what it can do.

It's not that fast, but actually the

engine is cracking. It looks really

cool.

>> It's brilliant.

>> It does. It's It's a real event, that

car.

>> And it's also It's one of those cars

that you kind of have to you have to go

with it. It's not the sort of car that

you can really

>> bend to your requirements. That's right.

You have to drive it the way that it

wants to be driven, but if you do, and

you learn how to make the most of the

gearbox and that sort of thing,

>> it's still pretty wonderful. Yeah. And

it'll still fine.

>> It'll do skids everywhere and it will

light up his rear tires.

>> Still feel really fast.

>> Yeah. Um the the C63 Black Series that

came after is a technically a much much

better car.

>> It's a much more capable car.

>> Um but I don't have that charm.

>> No, it doesn't.

>> No,

>> it's interesting.

>> Um but yeah, the original one, the SLK

55 Black Series was I mean it's probably

the worst Mercedes I've driven.

>> I can't think of another Mercedes that

has disappointed me more.

>> Wow. relative to our expectations. Yeah.

Um,

>> and what was the SL called?

>> 65.

>> The SL65. That wasn't a great car. I

mean, that was for a long time the most

powerful Mercedes that they built.

>> Big V12.

>> Yeah. But I mean, it had more power than

uh did it have more power than an SLR? I

think it did.

>> I think it did. Um, but it was this

rather sort of flabby. Don't doesn't

know whether it was a sports car.

Doesn't know whether it's a GT.

somewhere between the two.

>> But then there are things like uh the

SLS black.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah.

>> It's great example of the the extra

performance being absolutely not the

point. The SLS was always quite a tricky

car, quite a difficult car to drive

fast. Um and then the black came out and

then suddenly

>> it wasn't anymore. It was a car that in

which you could be completely confident

hoofing around. um have great fun in it.

And it was it was bizarre because it was

the most expensive, it was the most

extreme, it was the most powerful, it

was the most but actually it was the

easiest to drive.

>> And that's a really good example of a

special that absolutely exceeds in all

possible directions and dimensions the

the standards of the car that it's um

that it was spun off from.

>> Yeah, it really was better than the base

car.

>> Yeah.

>> Um [clears throat] go on then, your

turn.

>> Okay. Um, well, do you want can can we

do the the off-road sports cars? I mean,

there only two I really talk about. Um,

>> and again, these are actually both cars

that in one example, one of the most

surprising cars I've driven.

>> The other one just a car which was just

so

damn good. Um, so the so damn good one

is is the 911 Dhaka. Yeah.

>> And because we spend our entire lives

talking about 911s, I'm not going to

dwell on that. But um if I if I could

think of my perfect daily driver, it

would be a D car with all the blingy

bits taken off it, which you can do.

>> Um debadged

um with two sets of wheels and tires. So

I'd have the Scorpions, the off-road

wheels folded, but um the rest of the

time I'd just stick it on normal road

tires and that would be that would just

be superb because it's they they ride so

well. They because they don't have

enormous amounts of grip, you really can

skid them about beautifully without

doing lunatic speeds. I love the DA. I

just thought it was a really really

cleverly conceived, well executed car.

>> Yeah, it it they did it properly, didn't

they? It's not it's not a pure novelty.

They really really went to town with it

and it's it's really good. Yeah.

>> But you know the other one I'm going to

mention,

>> Huracan Sterato.

>> Yeah.

>> I haven't driven one.

>> Oh my goodness.

>> Is it good?

Certainly of anything remotely modern,

it is the best Lamborghini I've driven.

>> And I that I I include Aventador SVJs,

which is another Lamborghini that I'm I

there have been so many Lamborghinis I

just haven't got on with.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and the most Huracans are in that

category. Um most Aventadors are in that

current are in that category. Most

Diablo are in that category. The I can

never remember how to pronounce this

right. The Mercielaga or Merca,

whichever one is not in that category.

never drove a bad one of those. Um, but

you know, but the point I came to the

Strato and if anybody wants to know, I'm

sure you it's the kind of it's slightly

jacked up and it's got um those sort of

weird front driving lights on it and and

it looks like a sort of slightly uh well

what it is Huracan which is design it

looks like the sort of love child of a

cross between a hurac and a aerial

nomad.

>> Yeah, it does.

>> Yeah. Um, and I got into one of these

things really

with my expectations under very close

control. Um, and we had it up in North

Wales and Snowonia and then

uh on Anglec

and I was completely and utterly knocked

out by it.

>> Wow.

>> Couldn't believe how good it was. And it

was such a and the DAR does this too,

but it was such a lesson in less being

more because it doesn't have the grip of

a huracan.

>> Yeah.

>> And it is so much better for that fact.

Not just because it's easier to slide

about, but it's also on tires which have

a bit of sidewall and the suspension, I

think, is a bit softer, so it rides

properly. It was just a

>> It was It was a car that you thought

that actually would only be make sense

if you were driving it down some gravel

track at a million miles an hour, but

actually it made brilliant sense

everywhere.

>> Well, the the thing about those two

cars, the Dhakar and the Strata, I've

only driven the Dhakar.

>> Engineers and car manufacturers, it

seems, have spent the last few decades

trying to give their cars more grip and

more control of their mass.

um as if because those things make a car

faster. There's that's absolutely true.

So what

>> but they don't make it more fun. And

these cars demonstrate that a bit more

body movement, a bit more roll and lean,

bit more wheel travel, bit more flex in

the sidewall, bit less grip and actually

you've got a more fun car.

>> Yeah. But you also got a more

comfortable car. You've got a car you

want to drive more often. You also sort

of feel, you know, when you're in those

cars which, you know, um,

generate huge amounts of geforce and

require you to go to roads which are,

you know, either to racetracks or to

roads which you know are going to be

deserted because otherwise you just

can't enjoy that dimension of what they

can do. And then you're just driving

along. You think, oh, I really don't

want to be driving this fast. um and and

and there's the sort of the guilt sets

in and then you worry about whether you

know you're at the limit of what is safe

to do and in those other cars um you can

just hoof them about

>> because they really don't have very much

grip and they're just so much and then

when they do start to slide

>> they do so so much more gently because

they've got some sidewall and there's

you're not going that fast. Um and so

you feel more confident and you just you

just have more fun. They are just more

fun,

>> you know, less in that case is

absolutely more.

>> So, what else is there in that market?

There's the the Ford Mustang Mackie

Rally, isn't there? I'm not sure if that

quite qualifies, but you they're doing

something similar. Um, Morgan did one. I

can't remember what that was called.

>> No. And I haven't I haven't driven

either that or the or the Ford.

>> And Alpine did do a one-off, didn't

they? They did teaser. Uh, what did they

call it? I can't remember. Can't

remember. But it's the same sort of

thing. It's such a shame they didn't

pursue it.

>> Yeah. So, they made 1500 Steratos.

>> Mhm.

>> I presume they just sold immediately.

And actually, 1500, it's not that's not

many cars. You know, if we use our sort

of standard yard stick, they made about

1,350 Ferrari F40s.

>> Yeah.

>> So, they're not much [snorts]

>> um more common than those.

>> I guess no one knew what the appetite

was for an off-road sports car.

>> No, but I don't know. I bet you there's

going to be a Sterato. What's the new

one called? The Tarrio or something.

Yeah. Yeah.

>> But we we did pause it, didn't we, when

we drove for the DAR that ultimately

that's going to become an option on the

configurator. You you choose a Carrera 4

and tick the box to make it a DAR.

>> That'd be great. I'd take it in a

heartbeat.

>> That'd be wonderful.

>> Um, another example of a car that went

on to have a life that was never

intended for it. And another example of

less being so much more. And actually an

example of a special which is much much

better than the car it's derived from.

>> Audi R8 RWS.

>> Yes.

>> Yeah. I think that was a quite a tricky

car for Audi.

>> You know what? Since the 1980s, the

early 1980s,

>> they've marketed themselves. They built

their entire brand on all the the

qualities that you come with four-wheel

drive.

>> And then all of a sudden they build a

rear drive sports car. We all go,

"What's better?" [laughter]

>> Yeah. Why didn't you just do them all

like that?

Um, but they said, you know, it was 999

cars and I remember saying, "This car is

so good. You're going to do some more."

Absolutely not. We're never going to do

any more of these. No, this is it.

Limited edition 999 cars. Take it or

leave it. You know, you can drive this

one and then you'll never see another

again.

>> And then they did a

>> Then they did Well, yeah, but they

weren't RWS. They were RWDs, weren't

they?

>> And that was and that became a standard

production model. And they were all

better than the cars than the four-wheel

drive ones as well. I remember doing a

uh an auto You're probably there an auto

car handling day up at Angles.

>> That was Yeah, absolutely. Blue car.

>> Yeah. And everyone was hoofing around

McLaren LTS and maybe there's a 488

Pistaster or something there.

>> And the the R8 it wasn't brilliant on

track and it I think it did cook its

tires uh or brakes. Um but then I was I

was just thinking, okay, fine. So it's

not an out and out track car, but we're

all up on angles here. We've all got 5

hours home. Which one do you want to

take? Which one do you want to live

with?

>> And the R8, it would just be wonderful.

>> Yeah. Um I I I completely agree.

>> So, why was it better?

>> Well, I mean, it's not rocket science.

>> No.

>> You know, you no polluted steering

because you got no drive shafts at the

front. Lighter.

>> That's it.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and you know, they deliberately

didn't let it have

>> the more power the big engine. Um they

did right at the end of the production

run, didn't they? They did a limited

edition. Um, do they do a limited

edition rear drive if I imagine that?

>> Possibly they did

>> with the with the high power with the

610 horsepower engine.

>> I think they may well I don't know.

>> So anyway, you only got the basic sort

of 540 PS engine with it. Um, and

>> I couldn't have cared less.

>> I literally couldn't have cared less.

Um, you know, you could most of the time

you struggle even to use that. So the

fact that you you were 70 horsepower

down was neither here nor there. It just

felt it felt so much more on your side.

It felt more communicative. You knew

where it was. you weren't sort of, you

know, wondering where the nose was. Um,

you just had a lighter, purer,

more driver ccentric car for actually in

real terms, what was the downside?

>> What was the downside?

>> So,

>> yeah, traction, [snorts]

>> the line performance and weather

traction,

>> standing start and, you know, um, and

traction in unimaginably awful weather.

It's not like it was exactly lacking in

traction. Huge fat tires and an engine,

a large V10 engines sat on top of them.

So, it's not as if they were traction

limited. It's not like you're dealing

with like a, I don't know, an Aston

Martin Vanquish or something.

>> When I first drove one, I said there was

a time where four-wheel drive did

improve supercars or make them more

drivable certainly. But nowadays, you

don't really need it because we've got

electronic systems that are very, very

good, tires that are very, very good,

suspension that's very, very good.

>> Yeah.

>> And four-wheel drive often detracts from

this car. And and as I've often said,

you know, what and not just in a sort of

high performance um context, but in, you

know, among all road cars, four-wheel

drive,

>> it can often lull you into full sense of

security because it gives the impression

of there being grip when there isn't

>> because you got so much traction,

>> but you forget you've still got the

brakes of a two- wheelel drive car.

You've still got the tire grip in terms

of, you know, when you accelerate hard

in a four-wheel drive car, the reason

you in in bad weather, the reason it

grips and two wheel drive cars don't is

because each tire is being given half

the work half the work to do.

>> If you're going around a corner, that

doesn't apply. If you're trying to stop,

[clears throat] that doesn't apply. Um,

and I So, which is why I've always felt

more confident. I've always been

slightly suspicious of cars,

>> four-wheel drive versions of cars with

two wheel drive, and I'd never own one.

different if you got a Range Rover um or

a Defender or something which you you

might one day need to tow a horsebox

across a muddy field then of course

there's a point to it

>> but otherwise I wouldn't bother.

>> I just want to do some hothatches to

demonstrate that it's not all expensive

sports cars.

>> So we're going R26R and things like

that.

>> Yeah. And I want to suggest to you that

the Nurburg Ring and the the battle for

the front-wheel drive production car

record at the Nurburg Ring was the sort

of the younger generation's

group B and Group A homologation

special, right? It's it's the

equivalent. manufacturers because there

there was this track the Nurburg Ring

and because setting lap times around

there became such a big marketing tool

manufacturers had this incentive to

build these specials and they weren't

motorsport amoligation specials at all

actually but they had a lot of a lot of

the attributes weight saving measures in

the case of a lot of these hot hatches

the Golf DJI club sport S the um the

what else am I thinking of uh

>> the nutty man

>> the nutty yeah man R26R and ones that

followed. No rear seats um to save

weight and just sort of make them seem a

bit more purposeful.

>> What's that man that cost 70 grand?

>> Trophy R.

>> Yeah, that's the one I think. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Um and so and they had

sticky tires and you know all sorts of

other engineering going on and they were

some of them were properly exciting,

properly rapid cars. Uh there was a say

at Leon Cupra Sub8 as well that I think

that did have rear seats but it was it

held the record for a while and it was

just fast fast. Um so some good cars in

there.

>> Well, would you have spent your money on

them?

>> Would you have spent £70,000 on a Rena?

>> No. That's nuts. But I think there were

>> But that's the point, isn't it?

>> There there was a version that was 50

grand or whatever, but

>> Yeah. But okay. Would you buy a

hatchback with two seats

or would you buy a Cayman instead?

That's the thing.

>> I Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't. I wouldn't.

>> Okay. So,

>> they're really enjoyable to drive.

Exactly. But is it more fun than a

Cayman?

>> No. There was no Well, sorry. A front

drive 2 L turbocharged.

>> Yeah.

>> No, it just isn't. Um I mean they could

I mean I can remember driving that

um that nutty man. I'm trying to

remember where we were. It's gone. it'll

come to me probably angle I can't

remember but um I'm just thinking this

car can do incredible things but it's

not you know it's not a 70 grand car all

those cars um and you know I know you

and I know people who've got R26RS out

there I mean I I really admire people

who have those cars and actually if it

was a sort of fun thing to have as part

of a multi-car collection then I can see

that yeah because they are they are

completely different and they go about

what they do in a completely way to

anything else. And so I I do get that.

But I would never ever ever ever ever if

I was looking for a sort of single car

toy,

>> buy one of those instead of, as I said,

you know, for instance, a Cayman because

to me there is no world in which that

works.

>> We met a bloke recently, um he's

probably listening to this, I think he

is a podcast listener, who has an R26R.

He told us he's done 111 track days in

it, which is fantastic. At least he's

using it properly.

>> Brilliant. Absolutely. And for him, it

really works. I'm not saying that I'm

right and he's wrong at all. It's just

it's just personal preference.

>> But all I was going to say is if I had

call it 20 grand and I wanted a track

day toy, I'd be getting a Kum, I think.

>> Of course.

>> Yeah.

>> But I've had a lot of fun in R26RS. And

the one that followed the Oh, it's hard

to remember all the names. The Yeah, I

think the Trophy R was the one that

followed and then the one after that

perhaps had a a different name again. I

can't remember. But the um the first two

certainly were were really good fun and

fast.

Okay. Can I give you an example of one

which is not worse than the car that

it's based on, but essentially ruined

the car was based on.

>> Go on.

>> F82 BMW M4 GTS.

>> Yes. You hate this car. I've been

waiting for this.

>> The most div Well, it is. I I I was

looking I was looking it up just um just

trying to reacquaint myself with it. And

yeah, and and [laughter]

there are references to online as being

the most divisive car in all of

motoring.

>> And part of me thinks that sometimes it

may not have been the car's fault

because it was one of these cars that

you could set up.

>> Yeah, you could.

>> For road or for track. Um, and you know,

I can remember

probably when you were on EVO, you had

it and and and I I don't know who wrote

the story, but um they thought it was

fantastic. And you know, we we know and

like and respect all the people who work

there. And I'd never say that we were

right and they were wrong. All I can

tell you is the car that I drove was I

mean, it was it on the road it was

almost undrivable. It was so

uncomfortable and on the track

>> it was even on the track it was just it

was just pinging and skipping and it was

rubbish.

>> So [laughter]

I've driven quite a few M4 GTS's.

>> Have you? I've driven one.

>> I've driven one. I first drove one at um

circuit de Catalinia, the Barcelona

Grand Prix track on the full Grand Prix

track, and then I drove one at Blightton

Park, which is the opposite end of the

the racetrack spectrum. Um and both were

good. Both were set up in the proper uh

track mode, which I

>> But you didn't drive them on the road as

well.

>> I'll come to that. Um and the the

difference is quite significant. You

know, there's damper differences. is

there's a bit of arrow there's I don't

know maybe some other bits and pieces

maybe even ride height I don't know um

but the ones that I drove on track

certainly the one that I drove at

Barcelona warm dry Grand Prix track and

a properly focused car it was brilliant

it was really good fun at uh Blighton

Park just felt a little bit

uncomfortable on that track but then

I've driven at least one on the road as

well and there was one at Evo car of the

year Yeah.

>> Um, I drove that car several times as

you do throughout that week. I drove it

in different conditions in the wet.

>> I bet you it was absolutely No, it

wouldn't that's hilarious. I I'm

terrifying.

>> Absolutely horrendous. There is footage

of me that it made it into the video.

I'm just driving along at relatively

sensible speeds. It's raining. Um, the

road is slippery. I've got all the

systems on. I just turn into a corner,

probably tickle the throttle a little

bit as we come out, and it just snaps on

me.

>> And I'm getting very, very busy just

trying to keep it on the road.

>> Hate that.

>> Then a couple of days later, it's dried

out, the roads are slightly different.

Tires are warm, they're gripping, and

then I found the the road car in the M4

GTS, and it was really nice. Lovely

damping, good balance. Um, so I'm I'm

very much in two minds about that car.

Uh, but then there was a GTS before it,

wasn't there? The V8. Um, based on the

E92.

>> Yeah. But they made 150 of those, didn't

they?

>> Was it only 150?

>> Yeah. Um,

yeah. Uh, actually they made they were

going to make 150. I think they only

sold 138, but they were they were so

expensive, weren't they?

>> Yeah, they were they were proper sort of

GT3 RS kind of money, weren't they? Um,

we I think by design we're not really

doing the LT McLarens and the the

special Ferraris, especially and the

>> Well, can I just Can I just mention

things like with the special Ferraris

because I mean they they are because I

mean I guess when I sit here and I say

>> um that these specials are are how

well I said at the top of the podcast um

that when I think of these specials I

think about how disappointing some of

them have been

>> uh relative to expectations or how much

disappoint is the wrong word. How much

um how they've turned out to be not as

good to me as the cars they're based

upon. So, let's just run very quickly

through the Ferraris. You start they

start with the 360 with the challenges

improvement on frankly not one of the

greatest Ferraris. 458 Speci

>> well scooter between that 430 scooter

>> 430 430 scooter. Um,

[clears throat]

I mean, great, fantastic. Um, but again,

an improvement on a car which is I mean

it's 430 is a good car, but I don't

think it's ever going to be regarded as

one of the great Ferraris. The

interesting one to me is the 458. Yeah,

>> cuz I think a standard 458 is one of the

greatest supercars of all time, not just

Ferraris. Uh, I think the looks, the

engine, everything. and the special to

me. Um, and I've got a friend who's got

one, um, who's who has actually been on

this podcast. Um, but to me it just it

takes away more than it delivers.

>> Um, they are really

pretty univilized cars in which to do a

distance. I mean, it's I was so I was

glad to get out of it. I once had to

drive a one from Wales back to Ferrari

head office in Slowout and I was I mean,

it's ridiculous, isn't it? all I was

doing just sitting on the M4 at, you

know, whatever speed you sit on the M4

at. And it just

it wasn't a very nice place to be. And I

just thought if I'd just been in a

normal I mean, maybe that just sounds

terribly um spoiled and entitled. And

I'm just thinking I'm not talking about,

you know, the fact that I was in this

incredibly rare special Ferrari. I'm

just talking about in terms of did it

ride very well? Was it very comfortable?

Um was it, you know, sufficiently quiet

that I could, you know, hear myself

think? And the answer to all those

questions was no.

>> I love them. I think they're great. Fair

enough. I took one with a a 99 GT3 down

to Lemon one year.

>> Um, we had a blast in that thing.

>> Yeah,

>> good on you.

>> But I understand they are Well, I

suppose the point is

>> the the 360 challenge strati massively

improved on a a flawed base car,

>> but the 458 is such a great starting

point that it wasn't necessary to make

it.

>> But the 488 is the same, you know. So So

the Pista,

>> great car in isolation. really like a

PA, but really is it yay better than a

488, which is I think is another

staggeringly good car.

>> Yeah.

>> Not to me.

>> Not to me. You lose all your luggage

space, don't you?

>> I think it's right that they exist

because people want them and they

probably they are better on track.

>> Yeah, but okay. I mean, I've had I've

had 488, you know, I've had 488s on

track. In fact, there was one amazing

day we had up at uh Anglesy where we had

a 911R, a 488, and a 675LT. Yeah. On

track. So you think 911 R675LT. Now I

don't think the 488 of the three won I

think probably came third but it got

damn close.

>> Okay. So it is no slug. It is not. It is

one of the cars that you could

>> but would be faster.

>> Yeah. But so I don't care. I couldn't

care less. You know we're not Formula 1

drivers. You know what what importance

is

>> is is the lap time. Um and it probably

would on a track be a better car to

drive than a 488. But you know these

cars cannot live by track work alone.

And that's only one way of measuring

what it does. And there are too many

other ways in which it fails to me to

justify you know the additional cost of

buying it which was always considerable.

>> But fair enough. It's fair enough. Okay.

We are running out of time.

>> I just want to do a couple of Aston

Martins.

>> Oh, okay.

>> The Vantage GT8 and GT12.

>> There have been so many modified Aston

Martins, haven't they? So many N430s.

30s and 400s and yeah, on and on and on

it goes. But these are they were really

limited in the low hundreds, weren't

they? Both of them.

>> 150 GT8s, 100 GT12s.

>> Wow.

>> Wouldn't it be great to have driven them

both side by side on the same road

together?

>> Do you know? I think we did.

>> Did we?

>> On a slightly icy day earlier this year

in Warshire.

>> Would that be on our on our website and

app now?

>> It is. It's there and it's on YouTube.

>> Go and check it out. Um, but they were I

mean the they both had those robotized

manual paddles shift transmissions I

think.

>> Could you get a manual in the GT8

perhaps?

>> Yes,

>> I think you could.

>> Yes, you could.

>> Driven one of those.

>> Yeah, you could.

>> I can't remember.

>> But actually, what I really remember of

those is how wonderful the V12 in the

GT12 was.

>> Yeah.

>> Bloody hell.

>> That GT12 was a that was a proper car,

wasn't it?

>> Such an exciting car. And that engine,

the sound of it,

>> okay. Was it dramatically better given

that you could get a six-speed than a

V12 Vantage? [snorts]

>> It's so hard to It's a in terms of

rawness and excitement, it is on a

different level.

>> Yeah.

>> But as probably not.

>> I do remember that thinking that GT12

was a very special car.

>> Just while we're talking about noise.

>> Yeah.

>> There's something else that we wanted to

briefly discuss, wasn't there?

>> Oh. Oh, we're doing that now. Yeah, I

think we should. We are running out

time. So maybe that's the last thing we

talk about this episode.

>> So we're now so we're now off special.

>> Unless there's one more that you want to

do.

>> Um well, I was going to have a quick

chat about the Clear Williams, but maybe

that's maybe that ship has sailed. Okay.

>> Um because it was an example of a

classic of a special, which would turned

out to be more special than even the

people who made the special was

expecting it to be and therefore so the

original plan I think was to make

>> um a very low number of thousand. They

just kept doing they ended up making

over 12,000 of them much to the shank.

Yeah. Yeah. 12,100 I believe. Anyway,

no. So let's let's Yeah. Let's um let's

talk noise.

>> So, is it next year? I think a new

regulation comes in.

>> I think it's July next year

>> that's going to cause an enormous is

well, it's not just a headache. It's a

huge problem for people like us and for

the manufacturers of these special cars.

Do you know the details? There's a is it

a new drive by noise?

>> Yeah, drive by noise limit comes down

from 76 dibels to 68. And then that

doesn't sound like much, but it's not an

arithmetic scale.

>> The way it's Is it exponential? I don't

know if it is, but the way decibels

work, I think you add three decibels and

it becomes twice as loud to the ear.

>> Yeah, it's something like that. I mean,

there was somebody who should know who

was telling us at the BA the recent

Bista Scramble um that basically it's

going to have the noise levels. I don't

know whether

>> he meant that literally.

>> I think it's it's how it seems to the

ear, how we perceive it.

>> Um and it's difficult, isn't it? because

you know we have all everybody listening

to this um I would imagine loves a car

that sounds amazing but at the same time

we've all been cheesed off by

inconsiderate blasting through our

villages and towns in cars with you know

stupid exhausts on them. Um so it's it's

difficult. Um, but it is it is such a sh

it will be a shame if that means that

you know cars that have traditionally

made wonderful sounds. I mean I guess

it's less of a problem now because in

this turbocharged era cars don't tend to

sound

>> um as good as they used to. But if I

don't know the next GT3 911,

>> you know, we we we're already finding

this, aren't we? I did a story Yeah.

driving a Cayman GTS which has a 4 liter

naturally aspirated fat flat 6 in it and

the only thing that was ever so slightly

disappointing about it is it just

sounded slightly strangled at the top

end. And I know that's got nothing to do

with the engine. It's got everything to

do with the need to meet whatever the

current

>> um regulations are, let alone um the

ones that are that are coming in. Um,

I and I think problem I think the real

problem with this is that in in

in terms of sort of popular opinion, I

think most people would be all for it

because most people who drive cars, you

know, don't want noisy cars and they

don't, you know, if you said, you know,

come and listen to this flat 6 at 8,000

RPM, they'd probably go, well, no

thanks.

>> It's just a bloody racket.

>> And it is going to be properly policed,

isn't it, this thing?

>> Well, they say,

>> I mean, you know, and it is going on

now. So, um, we were talking to somebody

who said they'd been ticketed because

their car didn't have stop start. Were

you part of that conversation?

>> I don't know. I don't think so.

>> So, they have these sound cameras now,

don't they? Which are expensive, but

they are coming out. Um, and they were

they were saying to me that they were at

some traffic lights which were red for a

very, very long time and their car

didn't have top, stop, start. So, they

got a ticket cuz it was one of these and

and you know, their car was making

unnecessary noise.

>> Wow.

>> Um, and you know, I think what these

things Okay, so what I think that uh

these cameras are or microphones,

whatever they are, I think what they're

designed to do, I don't think they're

really designed to pick up on cars

because they haven't got stop start

because that means, you know, everybody

who ever owned an old car will be

getting a ticket all the time. Um, what

I think they do do is that they have a

database of all the cars. God.

>> Um, and then so they know how much noise

they should be making while sat at idle

at traffic lights. And if they measure

you, your the car, the noise that your

car is making,

>> um, as making more than that noise, um,

they'll send you the bill.

>> Wow.

>> Um, I think I read somewhere that, you

know, initially you'll get a warning and

then it's 50 quid and that sort of

thing. But, I mean, you can kind of see

the way that this is going. And there

there there are a few points to think

about this because you know so what

they're saying is that you have your car

is making too much noise but if the

exhaust that you have fitted which is

making too much noise is in itself a

legal exhaust

>> it's difficult isn't it and is it only

when you're parked at traffic lights

because when you parked at traffic

lights that's not usually when cars are

making are most annoying you they're

most annoying when they're driving

through through your village too fast in

in an unnecessarily low gear. So, are

they going to nail them too? Um, it's

really difficult, but again, it just

plays to this narrative. There's there's

this sense that

[sighs]

you know, I don't want to call them the

fun police. And I do understand why, you

know, as someone who has been disturbed

by

>> by noisy machines. Um, I I do get it,

but

>> and I and I'm sure that manufacturers

will find a way around it in terms of

how they manage the noise inside.

they're going to augment it, aren't

they?

>> They will pipe it and, you know, and

they will still make sure that there's

something to to [clears throat] listen

to. So, I find myself very torn on the

issue, but and I mention it now only

because it's increasingly being talked

about and it is coming. And come next

July, the the way you the cars you

sound, unless you buy an EV, I guess,

um, is going to be is going to be quite

different. And you may think that's

fantastic, you may not, but it is

coming. Um, and we should we should be

aware of it. and certainly for the

manufacturers of the cars of the sort

that we've been discussing on this

podcast

>> which are you and the noise is so much

part of the character of those things

>> a big problem

>> um what I haven't read so the thing that

you know where I live

>> the the noise issue doesn't come from

cars when when I when we first moved in

>> 17 years ago the motorcycles made a lot

of noise they seem to have all quiet

down quite a lot apart from these guys

who go screaming around the off-road

trails in these

>> um on these sort of trails rail bikes

which make

>> totally unnecessary

>> they make a horrible sound.

>> They make a horrible sound and what they

tend to do is they tend to find an area

and there's one not far from where we

live um where the trails are good and

they tend to sort of concentrate on the

area. So it's not like just you know a

car which just goes and then and then

it's gone.

>> You can spend an entire afternoon and

they usually tend to do it at the

weekends obviously. So you can find

yourself in your garden trying to enjoy

just a bit of peace and quiet um in you

know a beautiful part of the country and

you just hear these inconsiderate asses

on the other side of the valley making

um you know enormous amounts of noise

and I don't see any any attempt by

anyone to try to regulate that. Uh and

that certainly to me and I imagine that

there will if there are people listening

to this who live in the countryside they

will all know exactly what I'm talking

about.

>> Um and you know and and it

So, you're sat at some traffic lights

and maybe your exhaust isn't in

necessarily in the finest condition. Um,

and maybe it's making a tiny bit more

noise than it should do. Well, we'll

nail you. I know.

>> But there are these bastards who go

around making all this ruining, you

know, the weekends of entire communities

and they just are able to act with

impunity.

>> It's It doesn't seem

>> doesn't seem fair, but let's not get too

stuck into it. Right. [clears throat]

>> Excellent.

>> We've we've very quickly run out of

time. Um, so we'll wrap this one up. Uh,

all I'm going to do now is remind you

all to subscribe to the show. If you're

watching on YouTube, please just just

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It means you don't miss one. It really

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we'll be back again next week. Elepha.

Limited-edition specials and why they might be overrated #286

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Bentley GT3-R

Aston Martin Vantage GT8

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