Long-Distance Motorcycle Travel: Saying Yes to the Unknown

12 years. That's how long we've been making Adventure Rider Radio. 12 years of motorcycle

stories from all around the world listened to by riders in almost every single country

and it's still the most listened to adventure motorcycle show of its kind. Rider Skills,

Deep Trouble, Adventure Rider Radio Raw, Southward Chronicles, stories of riders crossing continents

getting into trouble, figuring things out and finding what motorcycles can open up for

us in life. And over those years, we've heard from so many listeners about what Adventure

Rider Radio and Raw have meant to them. Many have told us that it's actually changed their

lives for the better. Some have said it helps them get through some difficult times. Others

say it gets them through every day at work, these long days at work. Others have said

that they gave them the courage to buy a motorcycle, ride somewhere they never thought they could,

take a trip or just look at their own life a little differently. Those are some of the

things that have always fueled us for doing Adventure Rider Radio because Adventure Rider

Radio was never about motorcycles. It's about what motorcycles open up for us. That doesn't

mean that everyone wants to sell everything, quit their job and ride around the world.

Most people don't. Most people have their own version of adventure, their own responsibilities,

their own limits, their own way of doing things. But there's something really powerful about

hearing what's possible. You can listen to someone cross a continent by motorcycle and

never want to do the exact same thing yourself. But that story can still move something in

you. It can make you think about a ride you've been putting off, a place you wanted to see,

maybe a skill you wanted to learn or just a decision you've been circling for far too long.

That's what stories do for us. They open doors. They show us what other people have done. And

as we celebrate 12 years of Adventure Rider Radio, we're bringing back one of those stories

from the archives. Marina Matthew didn't exactly glide into motorcycling. In fact, during her

motorcycle test, while she's taking it, she dropped her motorcycle. Then to make things

worse, she had to ask the examiner how to pick it up. Now that little experience would

be enough to make most people walk away from the whole idea. But Marina didn't. With some

help from her friends, she kept at it. She joined a motorcycle club. And that's where

she met Paul Nibbs. Now Paul had his own way of looking at things. When Marina kept saying

no when he asked her to go out, he kept coming back with the same simple line. Just say yes.

One date became another, then a life together. And then two BMW F 700 GS motorcycles sitting

in the showroom, one with Marina's name on it, the other with Paul's and Paul down on

one knee, asking her to marry him and travel the world. No ring at first. Just the bikes. Marina

and Paul's story is honest and full of those moments that remind you how quickly life can

change once you stop saying no before you've even given something a chance. It's about

motorcycles. Yes, it's also about fear and timing and over planning, trust, accepting

help from strangers and learning that a big life doesn't always happen at once. Sometimes

it happens on the road one kilometer at a time.

What's worse than dropping your motorcycle during your license test? Well, having to ask the

tester to show you how to pick it up.

And with a rough start like that, one could be forgiven for just calling it quits, but

Marina Matthew, she doesn't give up that easy. So with a little help from her friends, she

eventually did become a rider. And then through that was introduced to another rider named

Paul Nibbs. And from the first meeting, Paul saw something in Marina that just kept him

coming back. But it wasn't as easy as just asking her out. He created a mini marketing

campaign of just say yes to finally convince her to take a chance on him. It worked. She

said yes.

The two walked in hand in hand to a BMW dealership and Marina stopped and looked puzzled at two

F 700 GS parked in the middle of the showroom floor with her name on one and Paul's on the

other. Paul turned to her bent down on one knee looked into Marina's eyes and said, let's

get married and travel the world. Just say yes. Marina looked back at him and said, I'm

Jim Martin. This is Adventure Rider Radio. Stay with us. We got a good one for you.

Hi, this is Charlie Bourbon, not a schoolmaker, Simon Manicum, Austin Vance, Grant Johnson,

Jocelyn Snow, Ted Simons, Simon Patey, Jimmy Lewis, Lyndon Pusket, Tiffany Kate, Chris

Birch, Simon Thomas, Lisa Chalvis, Graham Jarvis, Clinton Smout and you're listening to Adventure

Rider Radio.

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So I'm a Rainer Matthew. I'm currently riding my motorcycle, I think around the world.

So far it's been across the Americas. Previously worked in pharmaceuticals. I've been a professional

all my life and yeah, now I'm travelling. And I'm Paul. Same kind of gig looking to ride around

where we can go. Used to work in IT, but now gleefully unemployed.

Where are you guys sitting right now? On a couch. We're sitting on a couch in a very dear friend's

home in South Africa. So we've popped across to South Africa for a month as an interim break between

our travels from the Americas and we heading off to Europe next. Now, Paul, when did you start

riding motorcycles? I rode when I was a kid. When I was a young guy. And then I took a long

break and then I got back into it probably in 2006, something of that order. So a fair few years,

but all on the road and all, you know, not too far from home sort of thing.

And no off-road riding? It's all been on road riding?

A little bit. Moreno and I went to Cambodia. So I was, there's a bit of a trial by fire. I'd never

been on a dirt bike before. And we rode through Cambodia up to the temples in Siam Reap,

which was a wonderful experience and it was a spectacular kind of countryside. It was, you know,

like awesome. I came away with a fractured leg, but aside from that, it was great. So that was my

trial. Aside from that, that's good. Well, first, Marina, your story about getting your motorcycle

licenses is kind of interesting. Why did you want to get a motorcycle license to begin with?

Well, I'd been riding dirt bikes as a kid, you know, on the farm here in South Africa and in the

bush. And I wasn't comfortable being pillion. And I just decided I know how to ride a bike,

but I just don't have my license. It wasn't as easy as I thought it would be. Riding on road is

an entirely different ballgame to riding off road in the bush. So my first attempt at getting my

license, I actually dropped my bike during the test. And I recall, you know, all my friends and

members of staff were waiting to hear that I get my license and I had to message them that evening

what's worse than dropping your bike during your test, having to ask the examiner to show you how

to pick it up. So yeah, it was a trial by fire. And I didn't take to riding on the road and the

traffic as readily as I would have hoped. A lot of people will say the off road riding is much

more difficult than the street riding. So I guess it's wherever you come from. You were comfortable

in the dirt and the street seemed to be very scary to you. But that's hilarious, though,

what's worse than dropping your bike during your test, having to ask the examiner to pick it up.

I mean, that it's fantastic. What did the examiner say?

Well, he just said, do not collect your $200, just go straight home.

What were you doing at the time? What were you working at?

What was my job? So I was working as a sales manager and pharmaceuticals at the time.

And as you mentioned, you had trouble passing your test, you had a little trouble getting used

to the bike on the road, you had your friends help you out and they sort of took you under their

wing, didn't they? Oh, if it wasn't for the mentors, I mean, Ian Hales, Janine Lysette,

you know, I mentioned them by name because if it wasn't for their support and encouragement,

their humor, they just said, you know, they taught me about riding with other bikers,

learning from other bikers, not trying to do it alone, not being scared of the fact that,

yeah, you fall, it's just part of biking. You know, they were just remarkable in terms of

their encouragement. And yeah, I mean, from there, I didn't look back. And incidentally, Ian

encouraged me to join the motorcycle club and that's actually where I met Paul. So not only did it

support my motorcycling experience, it certainly became a life experience.

So they did an awful lot for you. Yeah, much, much more than just the motorcycle,

they changed your life really. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And if you were to ask Paul about

the first day that he saw me, I'm sure he can describe to you in great detail how

all these experienced bikers watched me arriving for the motorcycle meet and they

all looked at each other and said, what, Paul? As a friend of mine said, alone is a wobbler.

Yeah, anyway, I wobbled my way into his life. And incidentally, that group of friends have

become incredibly dear, but you know, they did initiate the rookie. And yeah, I've lived to

tell the tale. And I understand that, you know, I don't know if I should be saying this because

everybody's going to hear this, but I understand that Paul had a lot of trouble getting you to

actually commit to go out with them, just an initial date. Yeah, she was a bit like teeming

of the shrew. But you know, persistence, persistence, persistence, right? That seems to be the way to

a woman's heart. Yeah, I'm a very independent spirit and, you know, once bitten twice shy

and all the rest. And I just kept saying, no, no, no. And Paul just started saying,

what's wrong with one date? Just say yes. And yeah, one date, I actually had a lot of fun.

And then it was, how about another date? Just say yes. And yeah, essentially, Paul's taught me that

instead of saying no to things, maybe just say yes to things and, you know, what's the worst

that can happen. And yeah, we haven't looked back. And I ended up saying yes to a lot more things

beyond that first date. About a year later, I said yes to us buying our first home together.

I've also learned how to challenge Paul about the things he needs to say yes about.

But yeah, there's a great lesson in that. I think we shouldn't be as afraid as we are.

It's quite a good reminder. Why did Paul not look like a good bet for you to begin with?

What was it about him that you just didn't like? I don't think it was so much about Paul.

Hey, he looked 10 years younger than myself. And any 10. Yeah, no, I just wasn't in the right space.

Yeah, it was more about, it wasn't about Paul. It was just about, yeah. And I'm glad his curiosity

didn't dwindle. And I'm grateful that he persevered. Because that may have been the biggest mistake

for me is, yeah, not getting to eventually saying yes.

And as you just alluded to a minute ago, just say yes. It's a bit of a mantra for you guys now.

Very much so. And I think one thing about our relationship is we do constantly challenge

each other and we do look each other in the eye and say, well, why not? Why are we not saying yes

to this? Why shouldn't we be doing this? And I think this journey is an example of that.

Isn't there all kinds of reasons though? I mean, if you ask the average person,

why shouldn't you go off and do something crazy different away from the norm?

Don't they automatically have dozens of answers, endless answers?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

There aren't that many answers actually. Most of people's reluctance to do things revolves

around their fear. Whatever that fear is, whether that's a fear of not getting a job when they're

older or fear of this that, but it always comes down to fear. And one of the things

about fear is that it's mixed in with courage. Courage is just having fear, but just doing it

anyway. And I think that's the thing that people have to look to overcome if they want to go and

do something a bit different. Because at the end of the day, life can be very short and things can

often be out of your own control. But fundamentally, we all get back to doing what we normally do

once all of the fun's over. So we don't see it as a life changing thing. It's not something

that one should be fearful of. And if I was to say that if somebody said to me, well,

how can you do these things? You say, well, you just, you just have to take a chance,

just like you do when you do with anything, right? Yeah. And I think when we first met,

one thing we realized that we had in common was, you know, a sense of adventure and, you know,

I kept talking about, I want to have my gap year. I want to have my gap year. And, you know,

my children have heard that all through their lives. And Paul kept saying he's got an adventure

up his sleeve. And so we had that in common. And then we reached a point where we realized,

well, actually Paul sat and did the maths and showed me, look, it's possible,

you know, financially. And then we sort of ran out of reasons to not go other than giving up our

jobs, packing up our house, you know, and selling us it's like cars and what have you. And we just

looked at each other and said, we are able to do something we really want to, if we now

don't have the courage to just say, yes, we'd be fools.

Once you say it out loud, you can't back out really, can you?

Well, that's true. The public declaration. I'm a big fan of that for these type of things,

things that you want to do, but leaving your job, because you said, oh, the only things that were

left to leave your job, that's often the biggest thing. I mean, especially as we get older, you

know, the thought of going back and being a job hunter at this point in life is somewhat

unnerving. So that's a huge decision to leave the job.

Yeah. Yeah. And again, I mean, Paul and I have different stories that he might like to share

his first, but for me, yeah, that was huge. That was that was my biggest obstacle by far.

Paul? Yeah, one of the things I would say about this is that, you know, like, if you take time

out from work, you're really just taking a role on that's different from the role you're in.

You know, when you go and speak to an employer, they often give you the same kind of,

you know, platitude questions like where do you see yourself in five years and all these

kind of things that that occur in these these situations. And, you know, the truth of the

matter is that, well, particularly in Australia, anywhere where we live, 10 year at a job is

probably only two years or three years, people move around all the time. So I would just turn

around and say, well, look, I've just been doing another role for the last two years, and it just

happens to have been on two wheels. So I think it's just a matter of where your headspace is.

I mean, it's all about life's all about opportunity, right? You can, if you get the opportunity,

you can get back in. But, you know, with reference to your earlier question about fear,

yeah, people are afraid to take those chances. Now, okay, we could end up unemployed, but,

you know, we'll, we'll deal with that on the day. I mean, that just comes one of the other things

I've learned on this trip is that it makes no sense to try and over plan things because

they generally don't work out the way you plan them anyway. And also, it just, you know,

messes with your head when you think about destinations and timings and everything else.

We'll go back, we'll get work and it won't be a problem.

You almost set yourself up for failure when you over plan, don't you? Because you have this

imagined outcome and you plan it all and you work through all the details. And then when it

doesn't work out, it just feels like a failure. It feels like, oh, you know, the whole thing fell

apart aside from the fact you wasted your time on it. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I know at the

start of our journey, you know, we had all these plans and we had prepped ourselves down to the

last minute. And then when we got to Canada and the weather was just not doing what it was supposed

to, we were absolutely horrified because our plans suddenly were just, you know, dashed.

So we learned very, very early on to just take it one day at a time. And then it'll be one week at

time. And our journey just unfolded as opposed to having this mapped out agenda and then feeling

like a failure. And we've had the most incredible adventure just literally day by day, day by day.

And we actually don't enjoy, we don't enjoy planning too far ahead.

No, as I was thinking about, you know, how in the old days, you would have to plan things because

the world was more, what's the word, the world required that you engaged with it a bit in a

more structured way, you know, like if you wanted an airplane ticket, you had to go an agent to book

it for you. And then they would send you tickets in the post and all that kind of stuff. And now

we live in a world where I'm pretty confident if I went to the airport right now, I could get to

London, you know, so I don't need to, you know, engage the world in such a structured way. You

can just kind of go, well, what's it look like today? And I think if you over plan things,

it creates two problems for you. One has to your point, you know, there's a good chance your plans

won't come together because everybody else involved in your plan doesn't know what their roles are.

That's something I learned in sales. You know, because I was in IT sales, and they would say,

well, you got to put yourself on the other side of the table, not everybody, not everybody knows

what what the agenda is and what their roles are. So that's what plans are like. And second of all,

you do learn that if you plan things too much, even if it's next week, your whole week is focused

around that that point in time. And so therefore you lose focus on what you're doing today. And

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Your first adventure, Paul, I guess it's Paul's idea. This was the adventure that maybe that he

had planned when you guys met, but the first adventure was to go off and do this mainly

off-road trip again where you mentioned earlier where you broke your leg. Can you talk about that?

I'd said my actual first, first adventure was to move to Australia because I just bought

a one-way ticket and went there and never left. That's why Marina said to me, I had another

adventure up my sleeve because this was the second great adventure. But the trip to Cambodia was

really my own fault. I was getting cocky and I was riding around like I thought I'd mastered

something I hadn't and then found my leg in a hole. In fact, the Cambodia trip was actually

my idea. Again, because I was comfortable on dirt bikes, whereas Paul wasn't. For me, it was a

yeah, he did with an off-road experience. I think that was an example of Paul out of his comfort

zone. We finally got to the temples in Siem Reap and I just had to go around the temples being

supported by a tuk-tuk driver and a crutch that was just a little bit too short because all the

people in Cambodia are only blessed their socks are only like five feet high. The crutches were

too short. Then I'm going to go back to Australia. I found out I had two hairline fractures and a

bunch of other bruises and injuries, but it was all good fun. You didn't actually know it was a

break at the time. No, no. That was quite a pivotal trip for us. With respect to our relationship,

that's when I decided I was in love with this man and just seeing the compassion that Paul had for

the Cambodian people, how he behaved in a really stressful situation. In so many levels, I just

fell in love with Paul. He bought a home for a destitute family in Cambodia.

He really put himself out there. Then secondly, we both realised how we could travel together

and anyone who's travelled will know that sometimes the going gets tough and you're actually

arguing over who gets to sit on the toilet next. It gets really personal and really tough

and if you can handle those kind of things and still come through strong for it,

that's incredible. Firstly, for our relationship was fantastic and then secondly, we realised,

hey, we want to do more of this. We are loving travelling by motorcycle.

So that cemented two things for us really. That was a very pivotal time for us.

You skipped right over very quickly there, buying a house for somebody. I know I'm from Canada,

we don't do that a lot. As a matter of fact, I've never heard anybody do that before.

I'm sort of curious, Paul, how do you just come across buying a house for somebody?

Well, first of all, we've got to find a house. People in Cambodia live basically on stilts with

their houses made out of old bits of corrugated iron and cardboard that they can find from places.

There was a guy that we met as a result of doing the trip. He's the tour owner and he runs a little

foundation where he goes around and builds these houses for Cambodian families.

It's called Global Village Housing. The houses aren't grandiose and for a few

thousand dollars, they put one up and they put your name on it and a family gets to live in it.

It's got a little solar panel and a light and it's just better than what they find themselves in

normally, which is pretty bad. I've seen a fair amount of poverty, so it wasn't a surprise to

me that these people lived this way, so you just help where you can really.

But for me, it was just so meaningful that the first home we bought together, both our names

are on that home. It was a gift to someone else in need and I think that's who we are as people.

We both look out for each other and we look out for others and it was a very strong,

what's the word, it just knit us together in terms of what our true values are. We don't value

things. We value moments, we value experiences and when Paul did that, I just knew I was worth the

right man. In 2016, Paul proposed to you. Can you tell that story? Oh, yeah.

There was no ring involved. All my girlfriends were very quick to point out.

So we'd been talking about doing this journey on motorcycles and we'd been chatting for quite

some time and initially it was a five-year plan and anyway, long story short, it wasn't unusual

for us to go looking at motorcycles and on a weekend Paul said, hey, let's go and look at

some bikes and when we walked into the showroom, there were these two brand new BMWs, one with

my name on it and one with Paul's name on it and he said, marry me unless travel the world,

just say yes. And yeah, that was his marriage proposal with a motorcycle, not a ring.

I did make sure the ring came along later. Can't do anything with a ring.

Yeah, no, that was pretty magic. And so bikes, I mean, bikes brought us together.

Bikes were part of our, those bikes were an integral part of our wedding ceremony.

We're officially still on honeymoon. We have to keep reminding ourselves because

we started this journey shortly after we got married. So yeah, we are knitted through our bikes.

It was April 1st, I think, 2017 when you guys set off. What was the plan?

That was it. Set off. That's it. It's a good plan. Yeah.

Yeah, almost. I mean, we headed for Vancouver and the plan was to head north to Alaska.

But yeah, the weather in Canada was not kind to us.

How do you mean? What time of year did you arrive?

Well, probably within the first week of April because we stopped over in Hawaii for a day or two.

So we got to Vancouver within the first week in April and the snowstorms were just,

yeah, we got as far as Whistler and hung around for a month and eventually decided to head south.

Even some of the places like Jasper and they were inaccessible by road when we were there.

We had a bit of a grand plan. It's fascinating actually because when we first, it comes back

to this idea of planning. See, when people do this trip, they have this great idea they're

going to arrive from Alaska to Patagonia. And I think at some point along the way, you realise

that you just don't, there's no opportunity to do everything all the time. You know,

you've got to pick and choose what you're going to do and sometimes your plans change.

And I said to Moreno, reasonably early in on the trip that, you know, you need to decide whether

you're doing something just because everyone else does it or whether you're just going on your own

journey and that you should just enjoy what you're doing. And if that means you don't get to

take a picture with a snowman or take a picture with a penguin, then, then so be it, right? You've

got to enjoy what you're doing. It's all about the bike ride, right? What is the purpose of

travel for you guys? Is it about riding your motorcycles in different areas? Is it about,

is it the different cultures? Are you after, you know, looking at the places you've seen,

have you heard about that you wanted to visit? No, it's more about people, I think.

You know, that's why I wasn't too focused on whether we would get to Alaska or not, because for me,

it was kind of like, yeah, if I met a nice guy that was, you know, that ran a beer sanctuary

someplace, that'd be great. It's all about the people you meet on the way. And it's all about

looking at the human spirit and seeing how essentially all humans want the same thing,

regardless of, you know, what they look like or how they speak. And for me, that was, you know,

a bit of a revelation, because, you know, I've been to various places in Asia before, and they've

been very functional trips. So to go on a trip like this, where you have to engage with people

about buying petrol or where can I get a tire, you know, there, there, you know, it gives you a

different perspective on life. And so for me, it was all about, you know, if I meet a funny guy

in a truck telling me a funny story, that's made my day. It doesn't really matter where it is,

you know, it's, it's all about the people experience. Yeah, it's definitely been about the

people and the cultural experience. And, you know, the journey has not been about where we've been

as much as who we've encountered and what they've taught us or, or, you know, what we've experienced

whilst we've been with them, what they've challenged us with or what they've made us think about.

And there's some bonkers ones, if you bonker, bonkers Canadians.

Yeah, I find that hard to believe early too.

Before you left, you said that you sort of had a question. Is the world a place with mainly bad

people and a few good people or mainly good people and a few bad people? Was that a big question

for you? Was that something before you guys left that you were sort of unsure of or did

you just leave thinking you knew the answer? Well, you know, the world survives today on

shock and awe, you know, it's all about the world serving you up outrage in the media, you know,

like if you're on Facebook or anything like that, it's all about selling you outrage.

And so, of course, you, you've got to decide for yourself, well, do I believe all that outrage or

am I going to go somewhere and find that, you know, people are just getting on with their days and

just want the same thing everyone else does, you know, and that's the thing that I have found,

you know, and it causes me to reflect when I see something and you go, yeah, okay, no, they just

want us to feel outraged. I mean, there's a lot of who are at the moment where they just,

whether people call things fake news and that's quite a fascinating term because, you know,

all of that's been slightly politicized. At the end of the day is a little bit like that,

you know, where somebody catches only 30 seconds of what somebody says, it's a little out of context,

you know, it's a one off or something or there's rage involved. And the next thing you know,

people are afraid to go places, you know, people would say, oh, you can't go to Mexico because

it's full of, you know, narcotic gangs and you can't go here because the people are unfriendly

and you can't do this and you can't do that and you go, well, I don't believe that's all the people,

you know, I just believe that some of the people and the question is like, how many of the people

and my discovery is that a very, very tiny microscopic percentage and the rest of the

people are just getting on with their lives, you know, drinking tequila and just having a good

time, pretty much. Yeah, we've come away with such a strong sense of humanity is alive and well

and, you know, it's just not loud enough, you know, the bad in the media is too loud,

but humanity is alive and well and, you know, we've encountered it again and again and again,

you know, in the most unexpected places and it's really made us think a lot about

our own humanity. You know, for example, in Latin America, we'd be staying with people,

complete strangers would invite us into their home and, you know, we'd have to trust that,

yeah, our gut feel says this is okay, but then we discover that they've given up their main

bedroom for us as guests and, you know, Paul and I spoke about this and said, well, wow, if we

invited a stranger into our home, we'd put them in a spare room, probably on a blow-up mattress and,

you know, it's just taught us so much about humanity and generosity and trust.

We've just been an awe of the kindness of complete strangers. It's really made us

think long and hard about who will we go back to Australia as? How will we behave?

Have you found that the socioeconomic status of a person or a family affects or at least

correlates with the treatment that you get when you arrive?

We, ironically, we've discovered, although I don't know how scientific it is, but, you know,

Jen, we've found that the richer people are, the worse off they are. That's been our conclusion,

is that the kindness of spirit seems to be there in everyone, but people that are wealthier,

they have that as a barrier. You know, I often say that, you know, if you live in a westernised

country and you're a lawyer and your BMW breaks down, you just call roadside service. If you live

in Peru and your car on the wheel falls off your car, all your mates come out and help you fix it,

and so you tend to get more of a community feeling in areas where people aren't so well off,

and that dissolves a little more as you get into the western style of life.

Is that an independence thing, do you think, or is it a fear of loss, you know, as we become

just better off, and I'm saying better off is financially, is it a fear, do you think,

that we were afraid of losing something or being taken advantage of?

I don't know, it's difficult to say. I think people in the western world, I think they become

culturally isolated, because one of the other things we've discovered is that not only is it

about wealth, it's just about the environment that you're in, like a wealthier environment,

because there are disenfranchised people that live in a wealthy world, right, and those people seem

to be more disenfranchised than poorer people living in a poor world, if that makes sense.

Some of the troubles that we have seen on the way have been, you know, sad souls that are in

big cities where, you know, there shouldn't be those problems, and yet poorer people living in

poorer places, they just seem to be able to, you know, get by, and they're struggling clearly,

but, you know, if you fall off your bike, they'll run out and help you and pick it up, you know,

whereas I guess in the western world, you know, they're potentially on drugs or alcohol, or,

you know, they're isolated, I guess. I don't know why that is, but it's an observation.

It's something we've debated so much amongst ourselves, and, you know,

Buddhist saying has often come to mind for us that, you know, a rich man is unhappy because

he's scared of losing his wealth, and a poor man is unhappy because, you know, he doesn't have anything,

you know, it's this whole thing of fear of loss, you know, that you mentioned. So,

we suspect there's an element of that, but, you know, we were just astounded how in, you know,

some very wealthy cities is where we saw the homelessness and where we saw beggars, whereas in

really, really poor places, it's almost like there's a strong sense of community, and everyone's in

the same boat, and everyone just looks off to everyone, and Ubuntu, you know, which is an African

term, just essentially meaning that people look out for each other, and I don't know, maybe it comes from

everyone being in the same boat. I'm certainly becoming aware that wealth could be isolating

because you're too independent, and there's actually a joy in learning to accept, and I mean,

that's something we've had to deal with because, you know, I mean, I'm certainly fiercely independent,

and it's easier to make my own way, but learning to accept help, or learning to accept,

you know, an offer of something. That does change you, actually. I always say learn to graciously

accept, because I think in our world, if somebody says, oh, why don't you come over and stay, and I

think typically our first response is, oh, that's okay, I don't want to put you out to any trouble,

or, you know, don't worry about it, we'll make a will, and we'll sort ourselves out, blah, blah,

and one thing I've learned is if somebody says, do you want to come and stay over for the evening,

and we'll have a barbecue, I just go, well, yeah, for sure, because, you know, you need to learn to

graciously accept, because the other person is making a genuine offer, and if you try and back

out of it, because you think that you don't want to put them into any trouble, really what you're

saying to them is, no, I don't want your offer, and it's just about perspectives, right?

You're sort of denying them the pleasure of having you.

That's exactly it. You're denying them the pleasure of hosting you, because we all love

to host people. So it's, you know, it was like Marina was saying about how people give up their

beds. One of the guys that gave up his bed had had a stroke, you know, like the poor guy could

hardly climb the stairs or anything, and we found out that he'd given his bed up for us to sleep in

and we had no idea, and yeah, yeah, and so that was quite quite a an eye-opening moment, but yeah,

learn to graciously accept. I think that's the thing we all need to do, because we often forget

that there is pleasure on the other side. That's the whole reason that someone wants to do something

most times is because they're going to feel good, just to do exactly for another person.

But you mentioned independence, you know, we're very independent in the Western world, and I think

that there's a huge part in my mind of why we tend to get maybe just less outgoing and we don't

want to connect with new people as much because you move into a neighborhood now, you don't need

your neighbors anymore. You make your money and you pay for your services and you say,

I don't care about the neighbor. Whereas, you know, if you went back many years,

you would want to fit in your goal. As soon as you arrived, as would your new neighbors do,

everyone would want to get together and meet and let's make a friend here, let's make an ally

sort of thing. It's very true. We had a quite a funny situation recently where, long story

short, we were trying to do some maintenance work back home in our absence, but we needed

some neighbors to be involved. And one of the neighbors messaged us and said, well,

let's meet up next week. And Paul said, do you know we've been away for a year? And that was

just such a reminder to us that what kind of life have we been living for that to happen?

And we've really vowed that the sense of community that we experienced in Latin America is something

we want to always carry with us. People know their neighbors. They are there for each other.

They know what's happening. They party together. That's something we really want to always carry

with us. It was quite an eye-opener for us. We're going to take just a two-minute break

and be right back, but stick around because there's a lot more. There's some really funny stories coming

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You guys survived an earthquake in Mexico. Oh, yeah. Well, I survived a bit. Yeah,

he rattled around a bit. Well, 8.1. That's a pretty good earthquake.

Yeah. I was pretty terrified. I must admit. Paul's the calm one when it comes to those kind

of things. We'd had quite an interesting day leading up to the earthquake where we'd been on

a tour with a tour guide who was very, very strict and he wanted to make sure that after each tour

we had to be back at the bus on time and ready to go. But at each point, the bus driver would

go missing. And long story short, the bus driver would come running along half dressed, shoes on

one hand, shirt on the other with some excuse about helping a friend. And it was just one of

these most bizarre days during which the tour guide had too much tequila and jumped off the bus.

We then got abandoned by the bus driver during a teacher's strike in Oaxaca City.

And we had to find our way back via Google Maps during which the heavens opened and there was

this torrential rain. So we arrived back to our BNB. Everything was flooded. We were soaked. We

were sorting out all our motorbike gear. Eventually got too bad at about half past 11 and then

slightly before midnight, the earth started to move. What do you mean earth started to move?

What happened? Well, my instinct, you know, I was reading Paul was asleep and my instinct

was to turn to him and ask him what he was doing. And then I realized, well, no, there's something

more going on here. And literally, it sounded like a train approaching from the distance.

And the rumbling just got louder and louder and louder. And everything was shaking. The

things were toppling off the fridge. Things were flying off the table.

Yeah, it was and it was really, really loud. I mean, we realized quite quickly,

well, we just assumed, you know, this is this is an earthquake. We had a bit of an altercation

or an argument about what we should do because I wanted to run out and Paul was like, no,

you can't run outside. You know, and he was calmly finding passports and keys. I must say,

I couldn't think straight under the circumstances. But what amazed us most is that the earthquake

died down. And before we could even really realize what had happened, the first message came through

from a friend actually in hails saying, are you guys all right? And then the second message from

my girlfriend in New Zealand, Larry, are you all right? Through social media, people knew there

had been an earthquake in Mexico before we even really had registered ourselves what had just

happened. And that was such a lesson for us in social media. And yeah, how connected we are

in this world. I think it's just made us really reflective of the power of media.

You know, we've used it in a very positive way to prepare for our trip by networking

extensively with with bikers who've previously done the trip that we were looking to do.

You know, we've stayed very closely connected to bikers either ahead of us or following us.

You know, social media has been very, very positive for us.

But yeah, you know, it's we were amazed at how fast bad news traveled.

Marina, you've been riding at this point, not an awfully long time, you're riding a fairly big

bike now, the 700. So at the point that you know, you're in Mexico, how are you feeling riding this

bike? The bike was lowered. So Paul can give you all the details he helped with getting it all sorted

out. So the bike was lowered with this, you know, lowered suspension. And then I also put a lowered

seat on it. So I managed to gain about six centimeters. So that enabled me to at least have the balls

of my feet on the ground as opposed to my tippy toes. So I think for me, what I really just had

to come to terms with was it's okay to fall because you know, when you reach that tipping point and

this bike is going over, my instinct was still to fight it and try and keep the bike upright.

And most I mean, most falls are slow falls. They, you know, slow rides, sharp turns,

cambers, you know, so it's not a dangerous situation by any means.

It just really bruises your ego. So I've just had to learn, you know what, that's actually okay.

It's a bit tough enough. So I mean, Paul and I jerk because his traffic camera on his bike has

captured all my falls and, you know, we've created a bit of a medley of that. But on the occasion

that he fell, I was very quick with the camera, making sure I kept it at all, not always to good

effect. But yeah, you got to just laugh about it and say, Hey, but it's taught me that anything's

possible. When Paul presented that bike with the marriage proposal, I sobbed and

that first night because I couldn't even ride that bike home. And I said to Paul, how am I going to

ride around the world with you? I can't even ride this bike home. We had a very, very stressful

evening of contemplation and brainstorming. Long story short, I woke up in the morning. I said,

I'm riding that bike. We're not stopping for breakfast. There's a McDonald's a couple of

kilometers down the road. We'll ride to there. If I make it, you may buy me some breakfast.

And then we'll discuss the next kilometer. And that day, I rode about 150 kilometers

without incident. And yeah, I just learned one kilometer at a time. You just focus on what you

can here and now. And yeah, that bike has got just over 40,000 kilometers on the clock now.

And yeah, it's a great feeling, a really great feeling.

I thought it was interesting. You said that your bike has 40, both bikes have about 40,000

kilometers on it right now. And the circumference of the world is 40,075 kilometers. You mean you

couldn't just knock off the other 75 before the interview? I mean, or even just fudge it. We're

talking 75. Yeah, you always say it's the last 75 of the camp. Yeah, it's the one that puts you

You guys have had all kinds of adventures as you're doing this because you've been swimming with

sharks and you've been paragliding. And obviously the earthquake didn't shake you up all that bad

because you camped on the side of an active volcano. Who does that? Yeah. Well, it was on my

bucket list. So the volcano was there, just seemed like the thing to do. That's sort of like bungee

jumping. You know, you jump off, you get to live because the bungee straps will pull you back. And

that's what you're hoping there is you get to camp on the active volcano and live. Is that the

thrill? I wouldn't bungee jump, that's for sure. Wait a second, Paul, you're camping on the side

of an active volcano and you think bungee jumping is worse? Well, we camped on the side where there

was a bit of grass. So we were told that if the volcano was to erupt and it had done frequently,

that it throws the rocks the other way. So I was comfortable with that. Who told you that?

The guy selling the tours. Yeah, that was a very interesting experience. Paul and I have been

doing some volunteering with the Muscoca Foundation and we were chosen as Catalyst Travelers and we've

been volunteering throughout Latin America, basically from Mexico downwards with some partner

organisations. And one of the partners was this tour company in Nicaragua and they did

various things. And one of the things they did was these hikes up the volcano and camping on the

side of the volcano. So it was part of our, you know, working with them, getting to know them.

It was the most spectacular, spectacular experience, you know, sitting around the campfire and just

hearing that roar of the volcano, constant, constant roar. It's like the roar of the ocean when huge

waves crash on rocks, but it doesn't stop. It's just constant. And, you know, a couple of times

through the evening, Paul and I would just walk away from the campfire and just stand there in

absolute awe because, you know, in the moonlight we could just see the silhouette and just,

we didn't even speak. We just stood there taking it all in. And next morning we hiked up to one of

the sort of mountains close by and looked down on it or back at it. It was just magical, absolutely

magical. How have your bikes been over this 40,000 kilometers? Pretty good. Like, you know,

I'm not going to do any advertisements for BMW here, but they've been fantastic. They've been

spectacular really. We had, just had wheel bearings go, which ironically was kind of good in a way.

It's a bit of a long story with a lot of shaggy dogs in it, but fundamentally we ended up going

back to Guatemala City on our first run into Guatemala City. We bumped into a chap who was

turned out to be the president of the Guatemalan BMW Club. And he pulled us over on the side of

the road as he was riding through town. He said, oh, I'm Ricardo. I'm the president of the BMW

Club in Guatemala. Welcome to Guatemala. And if there's anything unique, give me a call.

So we ended up actually calling him because the wheel bearings went on Marina's bike.

And when we got back to Guatemala City, he called in a few favors and got our bikes,

got the bike back up and fixed on a Friday afternoon at five o'clock in the afternoon. And

an hour later, they'd all rallied around and fixed it, which was fabulous. Having learned the lesson

of the wheel bearings, I then bought some spares. And in Colombia, in a slightly less organized

fashion, some American friends banged my wheel bearings out with a hammer.

We just whacked them back in with a hammer and new ones back in with a hammer and off we went.

So it was an interesting lesson to learn, one, the game the Ubuntu of being helped on the side

of the road twice. So that was good. But now I do know how to change a wheel bearing, so I'm happy

with it. How far have you, like with the 40,000 kilometers, what have you done? You've done the

Americas and where? We did. So we went from British Columbia all the way down the west coast of the

USA, all the way down to the bottom of the Baja in California, in Mexico, California, and then

across to Mexico, across to not quite to the Yucatan because it was very hot there, but we

went across to Belize, through Belize, all the way down through Central America, so Guatemala,

El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, which is where the volcano was, Costa Rica, and then Panama.

And then when we got to the end of Panama, there's no road there. You can't get across

the Darien Gap to Colombia. So the standard way of getting there is either to fly or to get on a

boat. So we put the bikes on the deck of an old fishing trawler that had been turned into a sort

of a touristy transit yacht, if you like. The Stahlrat. The Stahlrat. Although some people

called it Ludwig, some people called it the Stahlruster. That was an amazing experience.

I don't think Stahlrat is actually written out with RAT at the end. It means steel,

it means steel rat in German. So I think someone's having a joke, but it used to be an old fishing

boat. And yeah, frankly, I think there is still remnants of fish in there. But that was great

fun. And we got across to Colombia, and then we did Colombia and Ecuador and Peru and Chile,

halfway through Chile before the weather began to threaten us with a chilly weather. So then we

quit and came across to South Africa. And the bikes, well, actually the bikes are in

the shipping agent's backyard at the moment next to his swimming pool. So we're hoping that he's

going to put them all in the crate and send them on for us. And you were in the Andes, I think,

and you had an incident, you had dealt with a hailstorm? Yes, we were trying to go to a canyon.

There's a canyon in Peru called Culca Canyon, which is very spectacular. And if anybody's

in that area, I highly recommend it. It's twice as deep as the Grand Canyon. It's 3,420 meters deep,

which is pretty spectacular to look at. But in order to get there, you've got to go through

this mountain range. And as we were on our way through, there was a downburst in temperature,

the temperature plummeted and it started to rain, rain turned to hail.

Yeah, two degrees Celsius. And the next thing you know, we're stuck in the hail. So for some

reason, there was a guy on the side of the road. I don't even know what he was doing there. There's

some kind of testing station or roadworks or something. And he was just looking at us curiously,

wondering what on earth these gringos are doing in this hailstorm. But we sat in his hut for a

little while and put some warmer clothes on and decided that we'd have to abandon the bikes where

they were and get a ride into town. So Marina hailed down this somewhat crazy local ambulance

driver. Oh, so my, my, we were at an altitude of 4,300 meters. And, you know, at two degrees

Celsius with the howling wind, I mean, we were very quickly succumbing to hypothermia. And

yeah, it was a case of what do we do? Do we stand the bikes, keep them running with our,

you know, electric jackets on? What do we do? Long story short, decided to abandon the bikes.

And my job was to hail the next vehicle, which happened to be an ambulance. Well,

I thought we were going to die in the ambulance. Because I was lying on the stretcher and my,

my extremities were aching from the cold. Paul was sat upright next to me with eyes the size of

saucers. And we could just hear the wheels screaming around those corners. And for anyone who's crossed

the Andes, it's switched backs and hairpin bends and steep inclines. It's, it's quite insane.

So I said, I wouldn't bungee jump. I wouldn't go on a premium ambulance.

And we saw a five car pile up in the snow. You know, it was, and I kept saying,

Señor, más peligroso, you know, sir, it's very dangerous. And he just laughed,

you know, like a raving lunatic and just carried on driving.

He's on his phone. Anyway, we love to tell that tale, but we sort of became celebrities in the

little town because by the morning news had spread that there were these bikers, you know,

who got caught in the storm. And again, you know, people were just incredible helping us get back

to the bikes once the weather had cleared, wanting to take photos with us, wanting to take photos of

the bikes. And, you know, wherever we went in the little town, it was just, you know,

we were like mini celebrities. There were two vehicles turned up on their roofs. You know,

it was, I was terrified. But the lesson I took from that experience is that

we could work together very well in a crisis moment. And we made decisions quickly enough.

And we just lived with the decision. So, yeah, that was quite insane.

That's the reason we actually decided to put a can our trip mid in the middle of Chile and come

to Europe for the summer. We decided that the potential for going further south

during the early winter period was risky. And then we didn't need to do it because

as I alluded to earlier, you know, you're on your own journey, you don't need to go all the way down

to the south and risk life and limb to get the picture of a penguin. So we really struggled

with the altitude and, you know, crossing the Andes. You know, the Andes started in Colombia.

And from the border into Ecuador, we started to really struggle with altitude. And I think,

you know, we were never really in a place long enough to truly acclimatize.

You know, the highest we rode was 4,800 kilometers, kilometers meters.

It felt like kilometers. And the highest we hiked was five, just over 5,000,

which is more or less ever a space camp. And yeah, it didn't feel good. And we just never felt

like we were coping with the altitude. So we pretty much had enough of being at altitude

by the time we got to Santiago. It's knowing when to quit sometimes, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, one thing that we have realized is, you know, we joke about our journey

as granny and grandpa's gap here, because we just, we just out there to have some fun

within the boundaries of risk that we are comfortable with. And, you know,

I mean, it's wonderful what some people do. And it's incredible what some people do and what

some people risk. But it's not us. And we're okay with that. And we've learned that along the way.

We've talked a lot to each other about, you know, what kind of risk am I comfortable with

and what kind of risk is Paul comfortable with. And, you know, it's not always the same,

which means we then have to talk it through and, you know, reach a compromise. But

at the end of the day, for us, it's about having fun and staying safe. And, you know, so far so good.

You've had your challenges with finding your way. I know you use a GPS and the GPS has actually

been the source of your, your first arguments. That's right. So just talk about the using,

using the GPS. And I think you need to start to be fair. You need to start at the fact that

I'm Paul wasn't doing that. Well, was he, Marina, you were, you were sort of jabbing at him, you

know, telling him that he just pointing things out. That's right. So Paul just looked at Billy

and he said, you answer this. So we had never argued until we started this journey. And I was

quite taken aback. I mean, having my first argument and Paul had jokingly said before we

started this journey, it's either going to be the longest honeymoon or the shortest marriage. So

I've done everything in my power to make sure it's the longest honeymoon. But yeah, our arguments

were just about getting lost and what's happening? What do you mean by getting lost? So Paul's in

charge. Paul's in charge. He's got the GPS and I'm following and I can read the road signs and the

GPS doesn't always correlate with what the road signs are saying. So I would point this out and,

you know, we'd have our argument and just drive off that way. Anyway, it reached a point where

Paul said to me, why don't you have a go? Why don't you navigate? And I rose to the challenge. And

at that point in time, we were staying in Washington state in the United States in a town called Long

View. And we had planned a four hour ride down to the coast. I think Prudhoe Bay or somewhere like

that. And I said to Paul, no, GPS is no good. I'm going to look at a map, figure out where we're

going and we head off. So we knew the trip was going to take about four hours from Long View to

where we were going. And I kid you not, it was about three hours 58. And we were coming up this rise

and Paul said to me, so we have center intercoms. And in the intercom, I can hear Paul saying to me,

I'm in the lead. Oh, it's nearly four hours. We must be nearly there. And before I could even respond,

we sort of crested the rise and there was this big banner saying, welcome to Long View.

The place you just left. The place we had just left four hours ago. And I won't repeat on radio

what Paul's words were. Well, I just, I was just flawed and needless to say, I do not

offer to navigate anymore. I said to Morena, why don't you have the navigator since you're clearly

the expert? We're upon later on, I realized that she's so short-sighted, she can't even read it

anyway. So it turns out Morena couldn't have seen the GPS, even if it was in front of us,

which is another point I make quite periodically. Having said that, we did go somewhere else where

the GPS took us down a dirt track and caused us to end up in farmland with no roads and

took us three hours to do 20 kilometers in red, red clay, wet dirt and mud and just

generally swearing and many falls what have you said? I don't know,

you just have to learn to use what tools you have and perhaps not rely on them so much,

but also accept that they do get you to where you're going. Yeah, and with that particular

experience that Paul was talking about, we kept thinking, you know, there's a bike has just come

from the front, you know, a local on a little bike has just come along this road. It must be a road

and we've learned not to take that as a given that this is actually a road that can be

navigated with a big BFW, that's for sure. Couldn't have been navigating with a goat.

It always reminds me of myself and my wife being on a trail and people were coming the other way

and it was supposed to be a one-way trail and I said, see, it can't be so bad and just as we

passed the last group of them, I realized, oh, they're turning around at the top and we were

going down. So it was quite the thing, but this navigation experience that you guys had with the

GPS that sort of brought up at least an answer to any time there's a conflict where Paul's

trying to say, you know, we have to go here and so what happens then? Well, the minute there's

any arguments, he just looks at me and he says, long view and then I just keep quiet. It's just

something you will never, ever live down. Because also, you know, I said, it does get you to where

you're going, even if you disagree with it. And I did say to Moraine, like, in the end, you just

have to pick one source of truth, right? And you have to decide that you're going to follow it,

whether you think it's right or you think it's wrong. Otherwise, you've got two sources of truth

and at least one of them is going to be wrong, right? Technology, once we depend on it or forget

about it, as a matter of fact, because you also had an experience with technology laying in a hammock

in Belize. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was, was quite an interesting moment. We were at

a dinner party recently and I was quite horrified that Paul told the story and I'm about to tell it

on radio. Don't worry. I won't tell anyone. You just go ahead. So we were in Belize and in the jungle,

staying at a jungle lodge and it was insanely hot and we'd been swimming and I was wearing

nothing except my sarong and I was lying in a hammock and we had a very private cabin in the

jungle and I just have this mist of a streak that comes out every now and again and I did a little

bit of show and tell, you know, in a private moment with my husband and we suddenly heard a member

of staff approach and I covered up and he walked straight past me, reached up to a security camera

that was mounted on the deck above me in the hammock, which I didn't know was there and to this

day we don't know if he was positioning the camera to see more or positioning it to see less.

But when Paul told the story at the dinner party, I mean, there was Walker's laughter,

but someone did say to me, you know, you can't run for president, right? It's bound to come out.

Well, that's why I mentioned I saw the video on the internet and I thought, boy, that's too much.

Yeah, we just could not believe it. Although probably you can run for president now,

that's probably mandatory. But you guys took some technology with you as well. You took a drone and

obviously you were hoping to capture lots of video. How did the drone work out?

Well, the drone's a long story. We took the drone with the best intentions that we were

going to do some very romantic shots of us riding the bike someplace and people do

nice panoramic views of canyons and sunsets and stuff. So we thought, well, that sounds like a

great idea. We had some technical problems with the drone, which took a little bit of time to work

out with some batteries and other such problems. But basically we got the drone to work. I took

the drone out and said, well, okay, let's try this, our first panoramic shoot of following the

bikes down the road. I fly the drone in the air and turn around and well, the drone's still flying.

The drone's gone. It flew off. So your drone abandoned you? It did. It basically just turned

around and went, yeah, stuff you haven't had here. It's the first opportunity to escape.

And it was gone and we spent a bit of time trying to find it. But yeah, it's,

we lost it. So I didn't get to use it at all. Does it make you think differently about technology,

about taking it? Because, I mean, everybody's doing this nowadays. We want to capture our

trips and I do it too. You know, I'll take a camera with me. But I often find it's more of a

pain in the butt to even bother trying to film anything than what you're getting out of it in

the long run. It sort of affects your trip. We have to, we have conflicting views on this.

My view is that I see a lot of people standing behind their camera and just not taking in what

they're doing. You know, they're just, I mean, I think a classic is when you see people at rock

concerts and they're recording the thing that they're there to see on a device and they're never

the opportunity to be and enjoy where they were. They've actually done and got and recorded something

they're never going to see. And so I'm a believer that an experience is more than just the moment

you capture in time. It's all about how you feel, what you smell, what's going on around you. And so

I'm sort of like, I don't want to take a picture. I don't want to take a picture of something. I

just want to sit and smell and enjoy and listen and all those things. Whereas Moraine is much more

of a moment in time kind of one. I'm going to capture this moment because if we don't then

we won't remember. No, no, no, no, no. So we, we, we have one more photograph. I mean, photography

is one of my, my main hobbies. And so as a photographer to go to these incredible places,

to see incredible faces. So portrait photography is really my, my main passion. And I, being able

to capture beautiful faces or, you know, it's just, I keep saying to Paul, when you're, when you

grow up and, and you're a photographer, you'll understand. But, you know, we've, we've settled

that, you know, we just have different views. But, you know, I do take what Paul says. And

there's a lot of truth in that because, you know, it is about being present in the moment. But for

me, it is about capturing that as well. And our home will be covered with magnificent photographs

when we get back. I'm sure. None of, none, no photographs taken by me. Yeah. I rarely even

carry this. I don't carry a camera around. So it's not something I do. I just watch with amusement

as I, as I see other people do it. But I can see the point, Marina, because what you're doing is

you're not so much capturing the moment. So you can post it on social media or show your friends

you capture the moment because that's an opportunity for you to capture an amazing photo. I mean,

I get that. But, and also even for reflecting back, I mean, I know I have memories from when I was a

kid that I think are generated from the photos that I have of that time period and other things

I completely forget. So, so that's a valid point too. I mean, there's a balance in there.

Yes. Well, we talk about the middle way. We talk about the middle way a lot.

So the middle way is like, you know, not trying to push yourself from one extreme to another,

you know, it's like, I'd like New Year's rev resolutions where people say, I'm going to go on

a diet this year. And they don't because they're not following the middle path. They're not saying,

oh, well, I'll just go halfway along this journey because that will get me where I want to go

without all of the pain and suffering that goes along with it. And so, I guess you might call

it a compromise, but I just call it the middle way. And that's what you use for travel?

Yes. Yeah, we try and always find the middle way because, you know, if you know, we've just

learned doing anything in extremes, you know, so for example, we haven't been extreme with our

budgeting. So we haven't gone extremely cheap and we haven't gone extremely over the top.

You know, that's just one example. We try and find the middle road because it's,

it's probably more manageable or more feasible. It's less stressful,

more likely to, you know, bring pleasure in the long run because extremes are just not,

you know, easy to maintain in any way. Have you been camping or staying in hotels and things?

A bit of everything. So we camped in the United States and we love camping. We love the outdoors.

We decided not to camp once we left the United States because we'd heard that

accommodation was so cheap, you know, from Mexico down. But we, you know, so we've camped, we've

stayed in BMBs. We've stayed in hostels. We've done couch surfing. We've had some

Haltex experiences, you know, where we've worked for board and lodge.

Slept on the floor. Yeah, slept on a floor. We've slept on the deck of a ship. You name it. You

know, it's been a bit of everything. And yeah, so again, it's just the middle road. We haven't

said, okay, we're only doing this or we're only doing that. We've sort of done a little bit of

everything. I think the main thing for us has been wherever we stay is making sure the bikes are

safe. And that's sort of been more our guide. Will the bikes be safe if we stay in XYZ place?

And you're not that fussed about the accommodations themselves?

No, no. Thomas the shower's got water coming out.

You stated a BMB in Canada, I know, and you thought that that was rather special.

Yeah, so as mentioned, when we got to Canada, we had these great grand ideas of getting to Alaska.

And our plans were scuppered by the extreme winter or snow heading north. So the roads

were just not possible heading north. And so we ended up staying at a particular BMB

for much longer than planned. And we were just hoping the weather would clear.

And getting more and more despondent by the day or by the week. And until one day,

our host arrived with a really, really thoughtful gift. Some homegrown weed

beautifully rolled into a joint sealed in some tin foil and beautifully packaged in a little

matchbox with matches. And, you know, in his beautiful French accent, this is for you.

And whenever we're in a BMB or hotel and we see the chocolates on the pillow, we just shake our

heads and we think back to that particular time in Canada and we think our hosts could do much

better. That was certainly the most interesting thing we'd ever been gifted by far. You mentioned

getting more and more despondent there. And I was going to ask is, do you find travel itself

stressful or is there an element of stress that you find while you're traveling? Not any more.

I don't. I would say yes. But it's not constant. You know, there are moments of stress.

One thing we learned is that if we have deadlines, we find them stressful.

Would you agree, love? Yeah, I don't like the plans and the deadlines. Like just be just just

roll by the days. What kind of deadlines? Oh, if you've got to take a flight or

you've got to be in a certain place by a certain day. You've agreed to meet somebody, you know,

on, you know, so let's meet up next Thursday at this place or something. And you're like, oh, well,

now we've got to, you know, now we've got to arrange our time around, you know, making that

down appointment. And it's like, I mean, you have to do that occasionally, but to try and avoid it

creates less stress, I believe. You know, just trying to say, well, we'll be there, we won't,

or we've got to get a flight tomorrow, we'll just go to the airport and buy a ticket, right?

So we've preferred to be more relaxed and, you know, less set in our ways. And, you know, we're

quite protective now of not making too many plans. But sure, there are stresses because,

you know, things happen along the way, you know, hail storms or earthquakes. So there are definitely

stressful moments. But we travel slowly. We try not to have extremely long days. I think our longest

day was about 14 hours of riding, crossing four borders in one day and riding at night. And we

broke all our own rules, you know, on that particular occasion. So, you know, we learned that you can

create stress by just how you plan to travel or don't plan to travel. So we tend to get up early,

ride for X number of hours and then make sure we find accommodation with sufficient daylight

hours so that if something was to happen, you know, we're not stuck in the dark as an example. So,

yeah, it's very much granny and grandpa's gap year. We don't look for stress.

You've said gap year several times now, but you've already passed the year.

Yeah, yeah. So it's going to be gap year. Yeah, just gap.

Do you find that there's a, do you have any difficulty not committing, you're saying you're

trying to commit less to meet someone or do those sorts of things? Does it not make you appear aloof

to them? And how do you handle that? We haven't really, I think I'm trying to think of some examples

where, for example, we were travelling with some bikers who preferred to sleep late and travel late

and, you know, with all respect, had a number of days where they were running into trouble,

getting lost in the dark, etc. And, you know, I respectfully said, hey guys, we'll see you at

point X or point Y. Our preference is to travel early. And I think, I think honesty goes a long

way. You know, you need to be true to yourself without being disrespectful, because I think

knowing myself, if I put myself through that of waiting for someone and then running into trouble,

I think there would be more disrespectful overall. I think it's just the way in which

you communicate. And I think bikers know we're all different. We're all on a similar journey,

but we're all on our own journey. And you've got to understand what that means for yourself. And

I believe you've got to be true to what that is for yourself. Otherwise, it's not fun for you.

And I don't think it'll be fun for anyone else. So I don't think, well, I certainly hope that

that we've never offended anyone. And we've traveled with a number of different bikers at

different times and we've had amazing fun. Hey, we're not going to meet them again anyway.

Now you will for sure. Yeah. So big lessons, big lessons that you've learned on this trip so far.

Not to plan too much. That's my, that's my main thing. My main thing has been,

you know, you don't have to, it's not like you have to be aloof to and say to people,

I'll be there if I feel like it. It's kind of like, you know, let's not overplan it.

Let's get together. Let's do this. Let's do that. If you're going to take an airplane flight or

somewhere, you don't need to go, I'm going to plan step one, step two. You don't need to say,

let's go to the airport. Let's get on a plane. Then the bus will be waiting for us. Then we've got

another flight. Then we're going to be here. Then we're going to be there. Then we're going to meet

somebody, blah, blah, blah. Just do the first thing, you know, just get on the plane and go to

the next place. And then when you get there, have a cup of coffee and go, right, I guess we better

find a bus, right? It's, you know, that you can be that way, right? It doesn't suit everyone because

lots of people like to plan. But I've realized that planning, sort of like, I don't know,

it takes a little bit of, it takes a lot away from your journey, I think. I was saying to Morena

earlier, I met a guy many years ago, who would go on holiday by throwing a dart into the map of

Australia. And he said that wherever the dart landed, he would just take his campervan, and

that's where he was going. And he did this, and he would only do it a couple of days before he left,

he would basically go right and leaving tomorrow, he throw the dart in there, and that's where he'd

go. And he told me he spent three weeks on a on a station out in the middle of Australia with all

these like ranch hands who wondered what on earth he was doing turned up in his campervan,

and he said he had the best holiday of his life. Unplanned, unstructured, just go somewhere and

see what happens. And, you know, I think to myself, you know, if I was working in a job and I said,

hey, let's take two weeks off, where should we go? Like, you know, decide the day before, like,

pick a name, pick a country out of a hat and just go to the airport. It's, it's, it seems like more

fun, right? So that's what I learned. For me, it's the biggest lesson or the biggest aha moment for

me is just one kilometer at a time. If I think back to how I sobbed my heart out when Paul bought

that massive bike and asked me to travel around the world to where I am now, you know, I remember

meeting a beautiful lady in the States who who traveled on her own and I said to her, how do

you do that? You know, and she she looked at me and she said, this was clear. She's looked at me,

she said, Raina, one kilometer at a time. And that has really stuck with me. And that's really

resonated with me because, you know, one kilometer at a time, I've put 40,000 on the clock. And,

you know, it's a good feeling, but I will always carry that with me as a lesson for my life.

You know, it's not just about motorcycling. It's just about whatever it is that we,

you know, we look to do that seems impossible or seems really big.

Um, A, you've got to start and then B, just one kilometer at a time, one step at a time.

You plan the year you're continuing on now past the year. Why?

Then we're feeding the cookie monster.

Oh, no, we just don't want to go home.

Too much fun. You don't want to go home. Have you guys changed? Are you different people now?

Is that what's keeping you on the road? One thing I said about this kind of thing is, I think

it's possible to acknowledge that, you know, you might go on a journey like this with an expectation

that you're going to change. And I did say, or I did consider the possibility that you may actually

go back and find yourself not changed at all, which would be a reflection of who you were before

you left, right? So will we have changed? I think there'll be some fundamental, just some, some

things that have changed about me in terms of how I see the world. I guess that whether I'd

be like enormously changed, I don't know. I think I'll probably just take what I've learned and apply

it to, you know, the real world that everyone else lives in for the time being. And so it goes.

Yeah. I mean, when we, when we started to plan this journey, you know, one of my fears was,

you know, I was really happy with the life we had us at a height of my career.

You know, there was so much happening. And I had a big fear of how do I step away from something

that I'm really happy with? And, you know, what if I'm on the road for a couple of weeks or months

and I'm really unhappy? And, you know, so we had an agreement that if at any stage we were unhappy,

we could come back. So if that was three months or six months, we could come back. It's not a

failure. And the opposite has actually happened where we are having such a good time that we

don't feel it's time yet. Time will come. Paul, Paul's daughter is having a baby. So our first

grandchild is on her way shortly. Congratulations. So it's tough being away at a time like this.

You know, we can't share, you know, her joy of, of, of, you know, preparing for motherhood and we

can't, you know, be there physically. So there is a big draw to go back. And we don't know when that

day will be. And I think, you know, we've, we've just learned to be open. That day might be next

month where we say, Hey, we want to go back. It may be, it may be another year, maybe whatever.

So I think we're quite loose. The way we're quite loose with our planning, we're quite loose about

for how long we want to travel. No plans. If you don't have plans, if you say we're going to go back

in six months, that will just mess up the next six months. You know, if you said, oh, I'm going to

go home, I booked an airplane ticket to leave on the seventh of October or something, then your

whole life would be fixated around that moment. And then you'd have to back plan and go, okay,

well, we've got six months, let's go here, let's go there, let's rush this, let's do that. It's like,

you know, you asked me whether I'd learn anything or whether I change. Well, one of the things I've

changed is I'm not going to do that, right? So it's like the day will come when the day is tomorrow,

like, and whenever that occurs, I guess we'll wake up to that day. And you know, one thing we are

able to do is be, be brutally honest with each other. And it may not be the same for for us,

you know, at that moment in time, but it hasn't happened yet. So who knows.

When Paul's leading with the GPS, and you know that you know a better way, and Paul knows you're

wrong. How do you, how do you start out your arguments? Do you have a way of dealing with that?

I just keep quiet now. I just think about long be.

Well, I'm using that just as a metaphor. But I mean, you know, in general, for arguments,

I mean, because it's tough traveling as a couple. I mean, I know that. And you're with

each other all the time, all the stresses on the both of you and you tend to lash out at the

ones you love because you're you're confident that they're going to be there no matter how you act.

It's possible that, you know, I'm just thinking about the, you know, you ask about change and

about how you reflect on things. It may well be that it's possible that the GPS was just a focal

point for stresses of initially trying to go out and doing something crazy like this, or whether

that we would have had stresses learning about each other's characters and understanding how

we deal with stress points and things like that. And it may well be less to do with the GPS and

more just to do with the evolution of our relationship. And we have a good strategy.

Yeah, you just agree with me.

No, sorry to interrupt. We have a very good strategy. And it's actually a strategy that Paul

created. And it goes like this, whenever you really irritate me, I just focus on all the

things I really, really, really love about you. And then it's okay. Well, that's good. I like that.

That's fine. I think that the truth is we've probably grown more accustomed to each other,

which I think is a good thing because it allows us to, you know, there are things,

there are always things about people that get under your skin. It's just the nature of humanity.

Right. And I think if you don't have the opportunity to, to fully confront and explore those things,

then there's a good possibility they'll just chew away at you for all the time that you're in a

relationship. So I think it's good that you can argue and you can be pulled up and called to

account with your character flaws and allow yourself the opportunity to be called out, I guess,

because that's a growing experience, you know, and sometimes Moraine is in traffic now and she's

yelling expletives at the drivers and I'm like, just don't have a care in the world. And I don't

somewhat agitated by the mood that she was in. Now I just ignore her.

So, you know, that's because she wants me to ignore her. I just go, she's a big girl. She

worked out for herself. Yeah, we've certainly learned so much about each other and, and we've

learned so much about ourselves, you know, and I'm just grateful that we've created a safe space

in which that can all happen because yeah, it's tough being together 24 seven

for more than 365 days now. Yeah, sounds sounds really long when you say that.

You're sitting in South Africa now. What's the plans?

We're leaving in a couple of days going to Madrid. We've been here for about a month. So

Moraine has been taking me around showing me all of her friends. We've been drinking a lot of wine

and eating too much barbecue food. And I've been shown lions and elephants and other such

African things. And now there's a paella and some flamenco with my name on it.

Yeah, so we fly out to Madrid the day after tomorrow and our motorcycles will join us there.

And we continue our journey. So all we know is we want to head towards Morocco

and try and get the best of Morocco while the weather before the weather gets too hot and then,

you know, the rest of Europe for summer. Beyond that, we don't know.

What advice or maybe I should say tips would you have for other people considering a trip?

Don't pack too much just in case stuff. Because I think there is a, I think people tend to think

that we don't live in a world where you can't just buy things on the corner store, you know, like

you know, somebody said to me and I had a toolkit and somebody said to me, you know,

there's nothing on that bike you can fix with that toolkit. You know, like if the motor stops,

you can't fix anything with an Allen key and a smile, right? And I was thinking, yeah, okay,

so now I'm carrying two kilos of toolkit that simply serves no purpose. And even if I did need

a spanner for something, I'd ride 50 meters in any direction in any country and probably find

somebody who can get me a spanner. You know, I like it. I think that's the tip. It's like try and be

as lightweight as you can. I mean, I hardly wear any clothes and Moreno is always nagging me because

I've got one pair of pants and I love to wear these pants all the time. And I don't really

care if they get a bit dirty, but I get nagged to have to take them off and wash them.

So what do you do? You stand with a towel wrapped around you in the laundry mat while

you're washing your pants? Pretty much wash them in the shower. Yeah. I mean, I would second Paul's

advice, you know, we did pack way too much and, you know, bear grills and MacGyver and all those

guys, you know, none of that actually happens in real life. So we don't need to emulate them and

expect, you know, major catastrophe around every corner and have every single piece of equipment

or tool or whatever. Yeah, and the world is a very, very small place. It's a tiny, tiny place.

It's not a big, dangerous place at all. You know, people are close by help is close by.

I'd say that's probably the best advice we could give us is don't pack too much.

Marina, Paul, thank you very much for sharing your story. Thank you so much for inviting us.

It's been awesome. All the best.

That was Paul Nibs and Marina Matthews, sort of in the middle of their adventure.

This episode was brought to you in part by Green Chili Adventure Gear at GreenChiliADV.com,

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Long-Distance Motorcycle Travel: Saying Yes to the Unknown

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