A lively and detailed discussion covers the controversial lawsuit against Porsche Cars North America involving a dealer selling a previously used technical training vehicle as new. The hosts also delve into the complexities of Florida's street takeover law, debating its broad application and enforcement. Additionally, they highlight a significant design flaw in McLaren V8 engine valve covers discovered and fixed by an independent shop, Cannonball Garage, which impacts reliability. The episode blends legal insights, automotive technical issues, and community engagement with a conversational and humorous tone.
"...ee now that you've set us up Doug for all of this grandeur we're going to fall flat on our faces No, you ma..."
The Hyundai Grandeur is a big, comfortable car made by Hyundai. It is designed to be nice and smooth for passengers.
The Hyundai Grandeur is a full-size luxury sedan primarily sold in South Korea and some other markets, known for its comfort and value. It represents Hyundai's efforts in the premium car segment.
"McLaren has a major design flaw
This is not news I was gonna say yes their v8 engines and"
McLaren is a company that makes very fast and fancy cars. They are known for building cars that race and go really fast on the road.
McLaren is a British automotive manufacturer known for producing high-performance supercars and racing cars. Their vehicles often feature advanced engineering and cutting-edge technology.
"Our friends at cannonball garage out in Chicago have figured it out and fixed it McLaren didn't
But an independent shop did so when people always say oh mark our was dealer service. I'm like big whoop-de-do so
Cannonball garage sent out an email. I think just today"
Cannonball Garage is a car repair shop that works on special cars. They found and fixed a problem with some McLaren engines.
Cannonball Garage is an independent automotive shop known for working on high-performance and exotic cars. They identified and fixed a design flaw in McLaren V8 engine valve covers that McLaren itself had not addressed.
"Cannonball garage sent out an email. I think just today
Regarding a design flaw in all McLaren v8 engine valve covers
That's a lot. That's like almost every model. Yeah, yeah, exactly
so they have
They have
Structural ribs inside the valve cover to stiffen the valve cover itself and they're made of plastic and
The factory valve cover design
Are mirrored components so that simplifies the manufacturing process"
A valve cover is a part on top of the engine that keeps everything inside safe and stops oil from leaking. In these McLaren engines, the valve covers have plastic parts inside to make them stronger.
A valve cover is a component that sits on top of the engine's cylinder head and covers the valve train. It protects internal parts and prevents oil leaks. In McLaren V8 engines, the valve covers have structural ribs made of plastic to stiffen them.
"so they have
They have
Structural ribs inside the valve cover to stiffen the valve cover itself and they're made of plastic and
The factory valve cover design
Are mirrored components so that simplifies the manufacturing process"
Structural ribs are like little walls inside a part that make it stronger and harder to bend. In McLaren's valve covers, these ribs are made from plastic.
Structural ribs are internal reinforcements inside a component designed to increase stiffness and strength without adding much weight. In McLaren's valve covers, these ribs are made of plastic to stiffen the cover.
"The factory valve cover design
Are mirrored components so that simplifies the manufacturing process
But the stiffening ribs inside the covers weren't mirrored. Oh"
Mirrored components are parts made as two matching halves, like a mirror image, to make building them easier. McLaren's valve covers were made this way, but the inside parts weren't matched correctly.
Mirrored components are parts designed as symmetrical halves, which simplifies manufacturing by allowing the same tooling to be used for both sides. McLaren's valve covers are made as mirrored components but the internal ribs were not mirrored, causing issues.
"Right whoops, so the camshaft lobes are actually making contact
With these ribs and wearing them down now metal making contact with plastic no big deal"
Camshaft lobes are parts of the engine that help open and close valves so the engine works. Here, they are touching plastic parts they shouldn't, which causes damage.
Camshaft lobes are the raised portions on a camshaft that push against valves to open and close them in an engine. In this case, the camshaft lobes are making contact with the plastic ribs inside the valve cover, causing wear.
"The plastic loses so the valve covers just lose a piece of this stiffening rib
So it's not necessarily a catastrophic problem
However, that plastic has to go somewhere and that's really close to places. It shouldn't be go sure and
Tiny amount a little bit of grinding off plastic isn't gonna like cause a major engine failure, but it could
Cause things to go wrong. It could you know lodge itself in places. It can work its way through the oil
You know maybe bore scoring. I don't know but essentially what they said was a lot of
cars have gone into service centers and
Been diagnosed with other issues that are seemingly random that are actually related to this plastic
material being in the oiling system"
If plastic pieces break off inside the engine, they can get into the oil and cause problems by blocking parts or scratching important engine pieces.
When plastic parts inside the valve cover wear down due to contact with metal camshaft lobes, the plastic debris can enter the engine oil. This can cause problems such as clogging, bore scoring, or other engine damage if the debris circulates through the oiling system.
"It is going to play out over a long time because this is obviously a lawsuit Against Porsche cars North America and it may play out for years if it doesn't settle."
Porsche Cars North America is the company that brings Porsche cars to the U.S. and helps sell them through dealerships.
Porsche Cars North America is the official importer and distributor of Porsche vehicles in the United States. It oversees sales, marketing, and dealer networks for Porsche in North America.
"Porsche dealer sold a new car That was previously used previously sold to Porsche's technical training center and used for technicians to figure out how to fix cars and then Sold as a new car."
A new car means a car that has never been owned or used by anyone else before. Selling a used car as new is not allowed.
A new car refers to a vehicle that has never been previously sold to a retail customer or used in any capacity that would affect its status as new. Selling a previously used or demo vehicle as new is generally considered deceptive.
"That was previously used previously sold to Porsche's technical training center and used for technicians to figure out how to fix cars and then Sold as a new car."
A technical training center is a place where mechanics learn how to fix cars properly, especially new models or technologies.
A technical training center is a facility where automotive technicians are trained on how to service and repair vehicles. Manufacturers often use these centers to educate dealership service staff on the latest technologies and repair procedures.
"a customer from Florida bought what he thought was a brand new 2022 GT3 From Porsche of Warrington."
The Porsche 911 GT3 is a special sports car made by Porsche that is designed to be very fast and fun to drive, especially on race tracks. The 2022 version is one of the newest models.
The Porsche 911 GT3 is a high-performance variant of the Porsche 911 sports car, known for its track-focused features and naturally aspirated engine. The 2022 model is part of the 992 generation and is celebrated for its driving dynamics and precision.
"he had asked for the window sticker. They did not provide the original window sticker They provided him and said a build sheet or what you might call pro forma invoice"
A window sticker is a paper on the car's window that shows what the car has and how much it costs. It helps buyers know exactly what they are getting.
A window sticker is the official label displayed on new cars that lists the vehicle's specifications, options, and the manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP). It provides buyers with detailed information about the car they are purchasing.
"They provided him and said a build sheet or what you might call pro forma invoice and he found out afterwards"
A build sheet is a list that shows exactly how a car was made and what parts or options it has. It helps people know what is inside the car.
A build sheet is a document that details the specific configuration and options installed on a vehicle during production. It is often used internally by manufacturers and dealers to verify the car's original specifications.
"They provided him and said a build sheet or what you might call pro forma invoice and he found out afterwards"
A pro forma invoice is a kind of rough bill that shows how much a car might cost before you actually buy it. It's not the final price but gives an idea.
A pro forma invoice is a preliminary bill of sale sent to buyers before the final sale, outlining the estimated costs and details of the vehicle. It is not the official purchase contract but serves as an estimate.
"Now they did that through arbitration However, once the settlement was reached Believe according to the the documents that I've read"
Arbitration is a way to solve problems without going to court. A neutral person listens to both sides and decides what should happen.
Arbitration is a method of resolving disputes outside of court where an impartial third party reviews the case and makes a binding decision. It is often used in consumer disputes like vehicle lemon law claims to reach settlements faster.
"so Porsche will sell cars to Porsche experience center. They'll use cars for their auto show. They'll have cars to their reps and All of these cars will have printed on them PC NA car not for sale."
A Porsche Experience Center is a special place where people can try out Porsche cars and learn about them. The cars used there are not usually sold right away.
The Porsche Experience Center is a facility where Porsche showcases its cars, offers driving experiences, and trains staff. Cars used here are often marked as not for sale and may be used for demonstrations or events before being sold through other channels.
"They then go through an internal Porsche auction process whereby Porsche dealers can buy these cars They are still new they do not stamp the warranty"
Porsche has a special auction just for dealers to buy cars that were used for shows or training. These cars are still new but were not sold to regular customers first.
Porsche uses an internal auction process where cars previously used for demonstrations, training, or events are sold to Porsche dealers. These cars are typically still considered new and may not have warranty activation dates.
"They are still new they do not stamp the warranty So they're not essentially put in service from a warranty perspective"
A warranty is like a promise from the car maker to fix things if they break within a certain time. If the warranty isn't started, it means the car is still covered as if it was new.
A car's warranty is a guarantee from the manufacturer covering repairs or defects for a certain period or mileage. When a car is used for demos or training but the warranty is not stamped, it means the warranty period has not officially started.
"So they're not essentially put in service from a warranty perspective Which when you buy a car from a dealer that may have been used in demo service You always want to say ask them when was the car put in service because you could be buying a new car"
When a car is 'put in service,' it means the clock starts on how long the warranty lasts and how old the car is considered. This is important to know when buying a car that was used before.
Putting a car 'in service' refers to the official start of its use, which activates the warranty and begins depreciation. Knowing when a car was put in service is important when buying a demo or used car to understand warranty status and value.
"This is a very real thing because if you're buying what you think is a brand new 2022 GT3 and you pay over sticker for it as he did You want a car that doesn't have paint work that wasn't used as a Porsche experience center? Yes"
Sticker price is the price the car company says the car should cost. Sometimes people pay more than this price if the car is very popular.
Sticker price refers to the manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP) displayed on new cars. Paying over sticker means paying more than this suggested price, often due to high demand or dealer markups.
"Now It's pretty easy because he was able to lemon law this car if he wasn't that would be a whole different type of lawsuit Because he'd be stuck with the car and he'd be suing for some sort of diminished value and fraud and whatever"
Lemon law helps people get their money back or a new car if their new car has big problems that can't be fixed after trying several times.
Lemon laws are consumer protection laws that allow buyers to return or get compensation for a defective new vehicle that has significant problems not fixed after reasonable attempts. This law can help owners avoid being stuck with a faulty car.
"It was sold with structural damage at manheim It had range six over revs and it kept Its cpo because all these different departments didn't talk to each other"
Manheim is a big place where car dealers sell and buy used cars from each other, kind of like a marketplace for cars.
Manheim is a large wholesale vehicle auction company where dealers buy and sell used cars. It is one of the biggest auto auction companies in North America.
"Its cpo because all these different departments didn't talk to each other like this is not a giant cover-up This is just corporate inefficiency Well, and i feel like and this is what i was touching on earlier"
Corporate inefficiency means a big company sometimes messes up because people don't talk to each other well, which can cause problems like selling cars that shouldn't be sold.
Corporate inefficiency refers to poor communication and coordination within a large company that can lead to mistakes or oversights, such as selling a damaged car as certified.
"the fact that they
Violated the monroni law and didn't have a window sticker and didn't provide it when he asked for one is crappy"
The Monroney law says new cars have to have a sticker on the window that tells you what's in the car and how much it costs, so you can make a good choice.
The Monroney law mandates that all new cars sold in the U.S. must have a window sticker showing detailed information about the vehicle's features and pricing. This ensures transparency for consumers.
"...through our website Uh, and it is a 1985 Pontiac fiero for twenty four thousand dollars The description..."
The Pontiac Fiero is a small sports car made in the 1980s. It has its engine in the middle, which is different from most cars.
The Pontiac Fiero is a mid-engine sports car produced in the 1980s, notable for its unique layout and affordability. It has a cult following, but some early models had structural and reliability issues.
"The description reads fiberglass replica not kit car replica 2005 Porsche Carrera GT kit car Or you can dress it up as a Ferrari"
A fiberglass replica is a car body made from a light plastic material that looks like a real car. People use it to make their cars look like expensive models.
A fiberglass replica is a car body made from fiberglass designed to look like another car, often used in kit cars or custom builds. Fiberglass is lightweight and easy to mold.
"Convertible top frame is just like a frame I thought it was a roll cage at first, but it's I guess it's a convertible top frame as you'd expect the proportions are"
The convertible top frame is the part that holds the soft roof of a car that can open and close.
The convertible top frame is the structural framework that supports the fabric or material roof of a convertible car, allowing it to fold down or be raised.
"There is a 917 replica car built on a beetle chassis that has Hyundai Sonata headlights"
The Volkswagen Beetle is a small, round-shaped car that was made for many years. People sometimes use parts from it to build other cars.
The Volkswagen Beetle is a compact car originally produced from the 1930s through the early 2000s, known for its distinctive rounded shape and rear-engine layout. It is often used as a donor car for kit car projects.
"Lamborghini Diablo has Nissan 300 zx headlights and that's not a kit car."
The Nissan 300ZX is a sports car from the 1990s, and its headlights are the front lights. People sometimes use these headlights on other cars.
The Nissan 300ZX is a sports car from the 1990s known for its distinctive headlights and performance. Its headlights are sometimes used as replacement parts or in custom builds.
"I love that you have this car that looks this insane, but it's got a four speed manual transmission and a 1700 cc bug engine"
A four speed manual transmission is a system in a car that lets you change gears yourself using a stick, and it has four different gears to choose from.
A four speed manual transmission is a gearbox that allows the driver to manually select one of four forward gear ratios. It is an older style transmission compared to modern 5 or 6 speed manuals.
"I love that you have this car that looks this insane, but it's got a four speed manual transmission and a 1700 cc bug engine"
The 1700 cc bug engine is the small engine from the Volkswagen Beetle car. It is simple and reliable but not very powerful.
The 1700 cc bug engine refers to the air-cooled flat-four engine originally used in the Volkswagen Beetle, with a displacement of 1700 cubic centimeters. It is known for simplicity and reliability but limited power.
Select text to request an explanation
Welcome everybody to switch cast season seven. This is our pilot episode. We are Ethan shaking his head
This is our pilot episode. I'm not saying it's definitively episode one because we're still
finishing our sponsor
Ad reads and finalizing those scripts and actually still working with a couple sponsors finalizing them
So we might do some live reads tonight for the sponsor ads just to nice stumble through them
Yep, we really wanted to go back to the way things used to be. We really did we do yes, but we have a
Law firm sponsoring us. We have to get that one. Correct. They sent me like you have to use these terms
You must have the legal disclaimer, etc. Etc. So
Next episode will be official switch cast season seven episode one. This is just our pilot again
I'm your host Doug Tabott here with my co-host Tyler Sanders. We have have even
Even huthnagle our executive producer
In-house and he is making sure everything goes well behind the scenes. Thank you patrons for joining us
I know you got a little bonus early access here while we were setting up and figuring our stuff out got to see my live
Hot tip phone call with my Porsche consultant on a story
We're doing tonight Dandu set our technical advisor will potentially weigh in as he sees fit
And or just throw some snark in randomly
Switch cast is the podcast where we know what we're talking about despite evidence to the contrary
I've got a good story about that for the warm-up lap, but I feel like tonight. We really know what we're talking about
Just laying that out there. I think this is gonna be a good episode
You see now that you've set us up Doug for all of this grandeur we're going to fall flat on our faces
No, you may I won't wow switch cast is an atypical automotive show that talks about all things automotive
Not just technical details on cars
It feels like a fun conversation with old friends and every episode is fun to listen to you might think we're
Tooting our own horn with that, but that was actually from a listener. So
They blew our horn if you enjoy this podcast help us out with the algorithms
If you like subscribe share review it it all helps us out with promotion. It helps the
Podcast platforms push us up in the ranking. We have not done any
Paid advertising. It's all organic. This is all due to
You as the listeners enjoying the podcast listening to it sharing it
Telling your friends about it comments reviews, whatever you can do that is great
And we recognize you do have two million choices of podcasts to listen to not all automotive and definitely not all
As awesome as ours, but many better choices, but you have chosen us
Maybe because you haven't found those better choices, but hey now
But don't go looking you're fine. We are right drink cozy up. Yes
Let's with that. Let's go to the warm-up lap
Which is every racer knows you have got to warm up your tires and brakes and fluids before you go out and try to set a
track record and that's what we do here we check ourselves before we wreck ourselves and
Well, what's what's fueling this warm-up lap?
Well, Doug since you misunderstood the assignment and didn't finish my old scotch whiskey in the two weeks since we last met
I'm drinking last time's log of wool and
11 year it finished in Guinness casks this must the offerment edition before we move on to the other log of wool and 11 year
The the one that's left that I brought which again will not be coming home. It'll stay here on the table
Is the first offerment edition they did so it's rummed
Was that there no that one didn't have any cask finish, okay?
So the I feel like to do a true offerment edition like in Ron Swanson style
It needs to not be finished in like rum casks. It needs to be finished in like
backyard crate with hints of gold bars and
soil
Just we buried it in the backyard for five years
next to the gold bars and
Then dug it up and it's ready to drink and some would
Some would say that a a peaty scotch does smell like soil. So I think we're part of the way there. We just need a little metallic flavor
Okay, well last week we talked about the Florida Street takeover law
We like talking we are not lawyers here and we don't always talk about laws or
Lawsuits or whatever we have to tonight. We're discussing but
Honestly, that's what is the focus of a lot of news
It has to do with people breaking the law or people suing over a law or people doing bad things and that is just part of our lives
You media outlets are not lawyers
They write stories about it all the time
But somebody was very upset that two non-lawyers were parsing legalese from this publicly available
Florida law
and that we were discussing it and he didn't
Really take issue with the content of it just that we were talking about it, but he said
That
Florida did offer guidance on essentially two attorneys and and lawmakers and stuff on how this is
Supposed to be interpreted and applied
And he he said that the intent is to prosecute street takeovers and my response is twofold one
It's not about intent. It's about application
Laws mean nothing other than how you enforce them
So you can write a law and not enforce it and therefore the law has no power or you can write a really broad law and enforce it
Broadly and then it has too much power and our opinion is
That this law is written far too broadly
There's already plenty of laws on the books that could and should apply to people doing street takeovers
Which we think should be prosecuted till to the full extent of the law that we don't need additional laws
that could
Be really broadly applied and in the comments. They proved me right because people told actual firsthand stories of
For example, there was a cars and coffee type event
That was on private property that was permitted that was approved and the cops showed up
This was Florida cops and they showed up and we're giving spectator tickets to everybody who is watching people leave
So that whoa, and I'm like, there you go. See see I don't have to be a lawyer to say
This is how it could apply and and my bigger point was
This is a law that's written in the English language and it applies to us it governs us
So as people who understand the English language and are governed by this law
We absolutely should do our best to understand it to talk about it openly
You know saying that it's only the lawmakers and the lawyers that can talk about it and understand it is like the you know
The old English church where the Bible was only in Latin. It's only the priests can interpret the word of God
You can't have can't have regular people
Understanding the scriptures and I think that's kind of the the same thing. I mean understand what he was getting at
But I just don't agree with it
Like I I want to know what the law says about my life because the lawmakers would be holding to us as citizens
So we should absolutely know what's in these laws
Well, and I think what what bugs me is a lot of people like to look at the intent is
The only thing that should influence an opinion, but an intent is only a
Part of a situation
It's a part of the detail like if you had a mosquito that landed on your cheek and your friend punched you in the face to kill
The mosquito and he's like well my intent was that you didn't get a mosquito bite
You'd still be pretty pissed that he punched you in the face. Yeah, so you need to be careful
It is it's a part of the story, but it's not the whole story. Yeah. Yeah
Yeah, there's
There's a phrase about that that was in our comments and I forgot us. I'm just gonna move right past it
McLaren has a major design flaw
This is not news I was gonna say yes their v8 engines and
Our friends at cannonball garage out in Chicago have figured it out and fixed it McLaren didn't
But an independent shop did so when people always say oh mark our was dealer service. I'm like big whoop-de-do so
Cannonball garage sent out an email. I think just today
Regarding a design flaw in all McLaren v8 engine valve covers
That's a lot. That's like almost every model. Yeah, yeah, exactly
so they have
They have
Structural ribs inside the valve cover to stiffen the valve cover itself and they're made of plastic and
they
The factory valve cover design
Are mirrored components so that simplifies the manufacturing process
But the stiffening ribs inside the covers weren't mirrored. Oh
Right whoops, so the camshaft lobes are actually making contact
With these ribs and wearing them down now metal making contact with plastic no big deal
The plastic loses so the valve covers just lose a piece of this stiffening rib
So it's not necessarily a catastrophic problem
However, that plastic has to go somewhere and that's really close to places. It shouldn't be go sure and
Tiny amount a little bit of grinding off plastic isn't gonna like cause a major engine failure, but it could
Cause things to go wrong. It could you know lodge itself in places. It can work its way through the oil
You know maybe bore scoring. I don't know but essentially what they said was a lot of
cars have gone into service centers and
Been diagnosed with other issues that are seemingly random that are actually related to this plastic
material being in the oiling system
So it sounds very Porsche of that you got a right
You got to cut open your oil filter and then there's still a man you've got like the newest cars still have this issue at no point
McLaren go. Oh, whoops, maybe we should fully mirror the design
So it's like somebody in CAD just like hit the 180 button and said ship it
But not the full one. Yeah, I don't know
Yeah, so cannonball garage is making new aluminum valve covers that are properly mirrored
so there's no contact between the camshaft lobe and the
structural stiffening ribs on
The valve covers. Anyway, I just I love it. They're making McLaren's reliable in a sense
But that's not the I've heard of a bajillion stories of little manufacturing defects that McLaren did
and
You know cannonball garage just keeps finding
stuff that should have been fixed at the
Manufacture level or should have been caught earlier and wasn't and is giving McLaren's a bad name for reliability
so
Yeah, good name to cannonball garage for fixing it all
There you go. This is not a sponsored topic. I just I read the email and I'm like, this is cool. That's crazy. That's yeah
But we love cannonball garage. I love Arnie. So
Yeah, there we go our patreon topic is
Always something that is off the beaten path kind of just a fun discussion
So if you're listening to the audio podcast and you are not a patreon subscriber
Every week we have a special
patreon topic that's just random so
Typically our producer comes up with it and and we have fun discussing a little more light-hearted
Low-key so subscribe to patreon on patreon.com
slash
switchcast or switch cast dot live slash
patreon and
you also get to
Do the the pre-warm-up lap the pre-show banter with us and throw questions in if you want and
It's a it's a good fun time. Nice little community in there
If you want to see the men behind the curtain, that is
Not that not the dressing room curtain well, yeah, it's metaphorical
Speaking of legal discussions, this is a story that has been covered all over. This is a major lawsuit
But I think we are going to shed more light on it than the other stories have so far
I think we're gonna cover it better tooting my own horn here
I always say that we're never the first to the story, but we're usually often the most thorough
often
We did want to jump on this somewhat early, but I did do a significant amount of research
It is going to play out over a long time because this is obviously a lawsuit
Against Porsche cars North America and it may play out for years if it doesn't settle. So the long and short of it is
Porsche dealer sold a new car
That was previously used previously sold to
Porsche's technical training center and used for technicians to figure out how to fix cars and then
Sold as a new car. Oh
allegedly the dealer
Covered this up
Not allegedly well, I guess it is alleged that the buyer did not know he was getting a car that had been used for
training purposes previously
Now so, you know the background that we've done
Because we got criticized as non lawyers for discussing legal things whatever it yeah, we got to stay in our lane Doug
There's plenty of media outlets writing stories about this. We are a media outlet. I have read I've
In a cursory manner not word for word, but I have read the actual petition
And complaint not just stories about it, so I've gone through that I have consulted
With an attorney that specializes in this type of suit and I have consulted with some experts or not experts
but people within Porsche
That know exactly how all this stuff works, so nice
You know in addition to my general understanding of the car business and how this stuff works
We're gonna shed light on it from a number of different perspectives. So
the long and short of what allegedly happened is that in 2023
a customer from Florida bought what he thought was a brand new
2022
GT3
From Porsche of Warrington. It had 34 miles on it. It was approximately May of 2023
And he had asked for the window sticker. They did not provide the original window sticker
They provided him and said a build sheet or what you might call pro forma invoice and he found out afterwards
That
Once the car started having problems that his technician at the Porsche dealer where he serviced in Florida said well people have
Been in this car already
Who there's been worked on there's loose wiring etc. And the car had gone in limp mode
It was down for a significant period of time long enough that he was able to use Florida's lemon law to
Get the car approved as a lemon so the manufacturer would refund the entire purchase price and buy the car back
Now they did that through arbitration
However, once the settlement was reached
Believe according to the the documents that I've read Florida's lemon law provides that they have to not only refund the purchase price
But also the finance charges and sales tax and that was not in the settlement amount
So he went back and appealed that he has also filed a suit
Initially in Florida, but Porsche filed to remove it to federal court for good reason
Essentially alleging that both Porsche cars North America and Porsche of Warrington
committed fraud and conspiracy in
Doing this whole deal and the reason he's doing that probably is to get punitive damages
So he can get a whole lot of money from them for what he believes is essentially, you know fraudulent misrepresentation
Well, and I think it's something that would have perked my ears immediately is the fact that for a new car a dealership could not provide a
window sticker
You are right on the money. I would
That would almost be enough to turn me away from you know either called Mon Rony labels
No, oh well
There's a law called the Mon Rony lots of federal law that new cars have to have the window sticker
Displayed on the vehicle and if they're not the dealer has to provide the window sticker
Which includes the standard features and the optional equipment the Porsche?
Proforma does not provide all that information. It's just the optional equipment. So
My understanding is
Because he let the buyer allegedly asked the dealer for the window sticker
They said we don't have it and then provided him with a bill cheat
My understanding is they violated federal Mon Rony law
Already by doing that now. It's not because they couldn't get it, right? Well, yeah, cuz it's they shouldn't couldn't they can go in
Yes, I confirmed this with my contact at Porsche. They could just go in and get another one right there
Now the that doesn't mean that they were
Covering it up because when he got the car it was in the glove box if a dealer is trying to hide something
They're probably not going to leave that thing. They're hiding in the glove box. Look I I have bought
Two cars now not from dealers from private sellers when I explicitly asked if there was information
They said no don't have it don't know and those service records and everything was in the glove box
Nobody opens the glove box. I don't know why I've also had the same thing happen
And I found out that the dealer was hiding stuff and then just lied and said we didn't have it
But it was because it was really really bad information. Was it in the glove box? No, okay
No, we had to obtain it other by other means so the window sticker itself
Seemed somewhat damning because and this is what's making the news big red print stamped on the window sticker PC NA car
not for sale and
the other
Thing in smaller prints on the window sticker is sold to such-and-such training center
so
If the dealer was trying to cover it up, okay
Well, it says right on the window sticker is sold originally to the training center
Now let's go to the logistics of how this works and then let's discuss the big red print of you know
the scarlet letters on the window sticker
so
Porsche will sell cars to
Porsche experience center. They'll use cars for their auto show. They'll have cars to their reps and
All of these cars will have printed on them PC NA car not for sale. We'll get back to that in a moment
When they're done with that
They then go through an internal Porsche auction process whereby Porsche dealers can buy these cars
They are still new they do not stamp the warranty
So they're not essentially put in service from a warranty perspective
Which when you buy a car from a dealer that may have been used in demo service
You always want to say ask them when was the car put in service because you could be buying a new car
That already has a year running on the warranty clock. This is not the case here. These are brand new cars
But they also qualify for free Cpo
So this car was sold as a new car with the Porsche certified pre-owned warranty. Well, that doesn't make sense
It doesn't and the guy like allegedly asked about it, but you know
They said it. Here's what the dealer said according to the complaint. It was used for display purposes
Okay, and for like
You know informational training etc. That in no way did they say it was used for this technical school
Well, so you're on the terrace. I don't really want to interrupt you too much, but why would
What are the reasons a dealer would buy a car from this internal auction process if it would is potentially not fit for sale to an end user
Because they wouldn't find any reason for it not to be fit for sale
Okay, so and that's a good question because going back to my auto tech days
in our auto tech school, we had different cars donate to us by the manufacturers and
My initial assumption on this story was based on my understanding of that
Which we were told these cars could like never be sold to the public
I mean makes it something's been taken the entire thing apart exactly learning how to be qualified. They're not qualified yet
So they were essentially condemned. So I'm thinking oh, that's what this means. That's not what this means
PC and a car not for sale just means this car is not currently for sale. It doesn't mean it's unfit for sale
It doesn't mean it can't be sold eventually. That's just what gets stamped on it originally
So this big red scarlet letter on the window sticker is not as big of a deal as they're making it out to be and part of the complaint
Alleged that the dealer like continued to double down on their cover up because when this whole thing was exposed
They said oh, that's no big deal. They do that all the time. Well, that's true
The dealer wasn't lying there. They do this all the time and I found other window stickers online
I found a another window sticker of a car that was sold to PEC Atlanta Porsche Experience Center Atlanta
Same thing PC and a car not for sale. It then goes to a dealer. It's sold as new
Definitely wouldn't buy one of those
No, no, thank you, but if you get a proper discount great well, and so again, this is where I
You know
There's a saying that I'm entirely blanking on but it's essentially like a lot of conspiracy theorists the things they allege can be explained by just very normal like
Normal ways the world works that seem nonsensical from the outside correct to
Porsche as a business this stamp probably makes the most sense
But now that we're looking at it from the outside these big scary red letters
It seems insane to her like oh this means it's illegal
And people start frothing at the mouth when they just it's probably just a paperwork transaction
So I'm guessing it's similar to the sticker that we have to put on used cars that says this vehicle not for sale
It's a federal regulation that we have to put it on the car until we put an as is buyers guide into the window
So it's probably along the same lines. It's yeah, it's paperwork
It's normal very benign stuff, but it's red and it's a part of this whole situation
So it looks scary. Yep, and it likely would not have come up if the car didn't have issues
because according to the car facts the gentleman purchased it in
June of 2023 and
Put a fair number of miles on it. So between then and
let's see
July of 2025 you put about 8,000 miles on it. So he drove it a lot and then
between then and the end of the year
I'm sorry March of 2025 between March and the end of the year only about 100 miles have been put on it
And it was back and forth to Porsche of Orlando for multiple drivability issues according to the car facts
Now that jives with his complaint in the lawsuit where he said that he was having electrical issues the car went into limp mode
And it also jives with his complaint essentially that he was unable to use the car
Because yeah first year he put 7,000 miles on it second year. He essentially put none
Now we did consult with our new
lawyer sponsors supercarclaims.com and
This is kind of their specialty one. They're in Florida to they focus on diminished value claims and
This is a very real thing because if you're buying what you think is a brand new 2022 GT3 and you pay over sticker for it as he did
You want a car that doesn't have paint work that wasn't used as a Porsche experience center? Yes
Workhorse that wasn't you know fiddled with by amateur mechanics
Because that all those things
Are part of a vehicle's history that negatively impact the vehicle's value and essentially that's what he was alleging is well
the reason the dealer covered this up is because
They didn't want to participate in the discount the diminished value that was inherent with this type of backstory
Now
It's pretty easy because he was able to lemon law this car if he wasn't that would be a whole different
type of lawsuit
Because he'd be stuck with the car and he'd be suing for some sort of diminished value and fraud and whatever
But the car was lemon law. So he's got a separate lawsuit for this fraud
Now he's suing both Porsche cars north america and
Porsche of warrington
And he's he's alleging that they conspired together
That the dealership is acting as Porsche's sales agent
Um that everybody participated in this giant cover-up
Now what our legal counsel legal advisor supercarclaims.com said is well
We really need to see the response from pcna and from the dealer before we offer a full opinion
And again, this comes down to everybody's rushing to the press, but it's going to be a long drawn out process
We don't really know what's going to happen
but
my opinion
or my guess my prediction of what was going to happen
and
supercarclaims.com
agreed with me in some sense was
One pcna is going to like when you file a lawsuit you have essentially have to name everybody that could be a party
And then they will individually file and say no, we have no responsibility. Here's why and the court will decide
Who is a legitimate defendant?
Um, so pcna their only filing response was to remove the case to federal court because it's essentially an interstate transaction
And because a claim is over $75,000 which qualifies it for a federal case
That was obviously approved the guys should have filed in federal court to begin with but whatever
um
So my guess is that pcna
Is going to file to remove themselves as a defendant and i'm guessing they'll
Win that
Because he's basically saying pcna knew all about this they participate in the cover-up
The dealership is acting as their sales agent and because the car was advertised on Porsche's
You know nationwide cpo search that like
Porsche advertised it and i'm like
You don't understand how big corporations work. They're so inefficient like look at the mint green gt3
It was repowed by Porsche financial over here and it still had a cpo over here
It was sold with structural damage at manheim
It had range six over revs and it kept
Its cpo because all these different departments didn't talk to each other like this is not a giant cover-up
This is just corporate inefficiency
Well, and i feel like and this is what i was touching on earlier like if
If you spend any time in corporate america you will understand how impossible it is to pull off some
Massive cover-up like this because somebody's gonna either screw it up or talk about it
Correct and it will get out and i also feel like
Oh gosh. Yeah continue on okay, so
pcna will probably win the part of it and and the dealership doesn't act as a sales agent
They're independently owned they do their own things they get allocations from the manufacturer
They have to pay the manufacturer for those cars and then sell them
They are not getting paid on commission to sell the manufacturer may give them unit bonuses etc etc
But dealerships operate as an independent business. So i just i that terminology i'm like that's not really how it works
Whatever so i think pcna will get themselves out of
This lawsuit and it'll be between the guy and the Porsche dealer
Now then he has to prove
that
Or they'll settle but if he wants to win it he'll have to prove that they
knew and covered this up
and
I think the whole thing's stinky
the fact that they
Violated the monroni law and didn't have a window sticker and didn't provide it when he asked for one is crappy
The fact that it was in the glove box tells me that they probably just
Didn't know their detail didn't catch it when it checked in whatever the amount of people that don't open a glove box
Dude, yeah, it's insane
so
I bought a car from a guy once and he said it was no paint work
And then I got the car and there was a receipt in the glove box for the front bumper being refinished
No front bumper. I don't really care, but it's just like dude if you're gonna lie to me
Hide the evidence. Yeah, like just don't send it with the car
Right. So so you've got that
I I also asked my Porsche contact
I said, okay when when these dealers buy cars through this auction, do they know what they're getting?
Do they know that this car was sold to the technical training center?
And he said well, yes, and then he backpedaled and he talked to contact a corporate as well to confirm this
He said no, he said if it was a Porsche experience center car
Yes, they would know and if it was like their reps car, they would know
But they would not necessarily know other sources and they would not definitively know that it was
At this technical training school
So that the Porsche dealer could have bought it from auction knowing it was a corporate car of some sort but not
knowing
What actually it was used for and maybe they were just lazy the fact that they didn't provide him a window sticker as he claimed in his
suit
When requested, I think that might be
You know what might hang them
Which is
Feels almost like a technicality, but it is the law and it's you know, they really screwed up
This all feels like a hand lens razor situation or never tribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity
Like that is a great somebody just like didn't
Do their job properly and they're going to go through this whole thing get drug online because somebody didn't open a glove box
Or print a window sticker or speaking of not doing their job properly. This is an example
As part of our research we went to epic van again another shameless plug for our affiliate
These are supplemental vehicle history reports
Um, they are not as complete as carfax, but they give us totally different information if you're not running epic vin
As a supplement to all the other homework you're doing
You are not doing enough homework
But we were able to pull up Porsche of warrington's
Uh historical for sale listing. It was put on sale june 3rd 2023
274,000 34 miles
No information uh in the description, but they use
Um, they have like a a green screen background and then they photoshop
So it looks like there's just nothing in the background. Well, their photoshop job was so bad that the main photo
Took out the rear wing. So it looks like it's a gt3 touring
Do you think they were doing that on purpose to misrepresent it as a gt3 touring?
No, because the next picture has the wing like that proves your point exactly like somebody just screwed up
and it's a bad photoshop job and
it just
It's it looks dumb
but uh, yeah
Oh my goodness
There it is amazing how applicable
That statement is to real life. So many situations in real life are just people being a little stupid or ignorant
And ignorant doesn't have to be negative. It's just you don't know. Yeah
In my research too, I came up with I believe this is a reddit thread and this was another type of situation
where somebody bought a pcna show and display car and
There was a whole lot of miles on it put on after it was purchased and sure enough
It was a Porsche Experience Center Atlanta car
But they were asking if it was a lemon law buyback now in this case they bought it from a pre-owned dealer
I think it was mark motors and the sales agent according to the screenshot said
Um, the car is not a lemon law buyback. It was certified pre-owned. So quite the opposite
Now he may not know this but that those two things are not mutually exclusive
Lemon law slash manufacturer buybacks are almost always sold as a Porsche CPO
Because the manufacturer buys it back they go through it and basically put their stamp on it and say no
It's good. We found the issue and we're adding the warranty to it
So a Porsche CPO or any other manufacturer CPO is not insurance that the car wasn't
A manufacturer buyback or anything else. It's basically just them saying
We're extending the warranty. So lots of bad information out there from both Porsche dealers and non Porsche dealers
The lesson here is do your homework. Do your homework. Do your homework know
The laws that govern car dealers know the laws that protect you
But but get all that done beforehand because you don't really want to have to go through a lawsuit like this
He may win. He may prove that the dealer and or Porsche cars was involved in some sort of conspiracy
I kind of doubt it but the mental and financial cost to that kind of lawsuit in my opinion is is really
It's just better to not have to go through that
Obviously if you do have to go through that supercarclaims.com
Is a a great resource for you and they're great just as as free consultants too
In that type of situation because they do offer free consultation
Not just for me when I call them saying I need help with an opinion for the podcast
But anyway all that to say
I hope we have shed some light more light on this than the average media article for all of you and
More to come it's that's really I mean
Yeah, my prediction is pcna gets themselves out of this
And the dealership is probably just going to settle
They may be partially in the wrong
But it's likely that they're going to say well, this isn't worth fighting
It's better just to give the guy some money to go away because it's gonna cost us too much to defend it
So and the guy's gonna end up with you know, he used the car for a year and it was fantastic
But then it was in the shop and he soured on the experience where if you just would have done his homework taken a little bit longer
He could still be driving and enjoying his car. Yeah, so I feel bad for the guy
Um that doesn't mean
He should win millions of dollars necessarily unless
Unless the dealer really did commit fraud if they were trying to cover this up then absolutely friggin barium
Let's go. Yes get lots of money. Um punitive damages all that stuff and use some of it to subscribe on patreon
Okay kit car slash true negotiator last week we covered what might have been the best kit car we've seen and it was definitely the best kit car
In the seller's eyes this one was sent to us this week from a listener and i'm so sorry
I didn't have their email pulled up, but it was through switch cast dot live, which we appreciate those submissions through our website
Uh, and it is a 1985 Pontiac fiero for twenty four thousand dollars
The description reads fiberglass replica not kit car replica 2005 Porsche Carrera GT kit car
Or you can dress it up as a Ferrari
Which he did
But yeah for halloween if a man can dress up as a woman you can also dress up as a dog, you know, right? So it is uh
It is a terrible
terrible
yellow Carrera GT
And you can see kind of the progress photos of when he bought it and then the things he did to it
And it looks like a Carrera GT with a really bad rwb wide body
You fenders just bolted on and the
Convertible top frame is just like a frame
I thought it was a roll cage at first, but it's I guess it's a convertible top frame as you'd expect the proportions are
God awful
But this is insane. He stuck Ferrari badges all over it. Why?
So he wasn't kidding when he said you could dress it up as a Ferrari
I don't my goodness
He's even got a like a Ferrari pillow in between the seats, which I think is supposed to be like Alcantara
You know
Interior trim, but it's just a pillow. He's got Ferrari letters on the back deck
It is
Abysmal it is I do love the fender flares seam
He said but he's justifying the price as all good car sellers do, you know, if you're a Corvette seller
It's one of one. Well in this case there's 24 000 dollars in fiberglass alone. Ah
That's almost as much fiberglass as in like a
Friggin ski boat, you know, so what what I find interesting is this thing looks like trash
But yes
But they took the time to cut out the side skirts of the car to fit the the side exit exhaust
There's little leg humps cut into the side of the car. That's like a level of detail. And yet they just glued on these
Rwb fender flares, but there's also rear exit exhausts
There, you know, this car is just it generates so much
fumes
That it's a golly. This is terrible. I'm exhausted just looking at it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh god
Maybe it's for the cabin exhaust because it's just so much
Yeah, it was for the driver, you know, this is straight from the bottom of the seat
Oh boy. Well
We always appreciate kit car submissions. They are
They're fantastic
They keep us going here the the kit car thing all started
Well, it didn't start we've been talking about bad kit cars for a long time, but three seasons ago. We issued a challenge
Um
That if somebody could submit to us a kit car that was like actually
Yeah, needed nothing that they would win some arbitrary prize that I didn't name
Somebody said it was thousands of dollars. I don't think it was but anyway
Nobody ever found one. Maybe somebody found one and then conveniently I forgot what the prize was so I didn't have to award it to them
but
Could be a supercar claims.com hat
Man, I don't I'm sorry. I'm I'm in the facebook rabbit hole of kit cars and replicas. There is a
917 replica car built on a beetle chassis that has Hyundai Sonata headlights
Yes
Oh
Well, oh
Having Hyundai's
Lamborghini Diablo has Nissan 300 zx headlights and that's not a kit car. So no, but this is not good
Not not good. It's a real head turner. Sure is buddy
They all are everybody says that it gets more attention than real ones
I love that you have this car that looks this insane, but it's got a four speed manual transmission and a 1700 cc bug engine
I barely get out of its own way. Are you ready for a second legal topic of the night? Let's go. Oh, I'm sorry
I need I'm closing the tab Doug. I'm locked in I'm focused
California is cracking down on Montana LLC. Okay back to kit cars
I told you so
Yes, uh, sorry cue the I told you so because I told you so now it has been
Less than two episodes since I've covered a topic about Montana LLCs
But my goodness, I love it when I'm right when carvana even fails again
We are going to do 17 weeks of I told you so
You will gloat until you can't gloat no more
I will say we got a clip that you're always right thing for the next time you're wrong so we can play it back to you
listen
So far people can call me out on this
Let's get the receipts
So far I think the thing I've been most wrong about is carvana stock, but I still don't think I'm wrong about their company
I still there's major investment firms out there that are shorting their company and they know a lot more than I do
Okay, let's talk about California
The most recent one we talked about was
A dealer in minnesota who got charged felony charges along with a broker that worked for them
For evading sales tax. Well now the california
department of tax and fee administration which
Right there is a mouthful of friggin just government bureaucracy and waste
Everybody that works there is so much fun at parties
Them and the dmv are cracking down on auto dealers who help buyers evade california taxes
This is straight from cdtfa.california
Their press release we go right to the source
Also, hagerty.com writes an article california charges 14 people in the latest crackdown on montana license plate loophole
so
the department of tax and fee administration is going after the auto dealers and the
california attorney general
Is filing criminal charges against a number of individuals for conspiracy for evading sales tax
for perjury
for
money laundering
and
true to form if you listen to our last segment on
The the Porsche
North america lawsuit
I read the actual legal documents here not just articles about it because I wanted to get the best firsthand information that I could to discuss with everybody here
Uh the legal documents were really really boring
It was just literally like count one this for this count two count three count four, but there is
The long and short of it is california is sick and tired of losing money
On sales tax revenue to people titling their cars in montana all sees
I don't agree
with
Taxes I don't like taxes. I think the government is bloated and wasteful
And they're probably spending as much money
prosecuting this
lack of revenue as
They're going to gain from collecting this revenue that they've lost and they could just
Not care and not deal with registration and not have sales tax and that would be just the best for everybody
However
The laws are out there sales tax exists
I
I don't think I have to be like a government fan to say
It's just easier to pay your sales tax than try to jump through all these hoops in montana to not pay your sales tax
And the risk reward ratio is out of whack. That's why I titled my cars in oh how as
Painful as it is. I did it. Okay moving on
Well, I think too and we might get into this later. I said moving on. I know no we're not we're sticking up
It's about the topic the whole reason we're here. Okay
I think california is an interesting case in all of this because there's also
Issues with registering cars based on emissions and compatibility with emissions
And I think there are some people who's only option to drive their cars on california is to go this route
And it's not necessarily to avoid sales tax whereas I think
Every other state doesn't have any is california the only state that has like really strict emissions laws
There's like 13 states that have mirrored california's emissions including cal colorado and connecticut
It's all the seas
But so it's interesting that you know, there's you know in
Tennessee or ohio, okay
register your car
But like I guess one of these so
California is not providing a way for these folks to pay taxes and register some of them
some I know people that have
Paid tax in california and then move to montana lc now that was also partly due to the ongoing registration cost
But I digress. Okay, so a few things I wanted to highlight in this article
um, so california officials post a 57 count complaint and charge 14 people in a tax evasion scheme
they are also
opened
400 investigations into high-end animal automobile purchases and they're
auditing 300 dealers related to vehicle sales of no tax to no tax states. Um
Here's the funny thing if you look at the numbers the agency has identified
500 dealers involved in over 2,500 vehicle sales since 2023 to customers claiming to use the vehicle in montana
If you do the math on that that's an average of five per dealer
Over three years. So that's like one and a half cars per year per dealer
Per investigation. I don't think those numbers are as impressive as they think they are
That doesn't feel that right
You know, I I don't take back the point that I made that california makes it very tough
But I don't actually think that's who they're targeting here. I think these are all folks with like really high-end cars. Yes
Yeah, uh, let's see
uh
The cd tfa claims that the so-called montana lupo costs the state more than 10 million per year in revenue and the 81
criminal investigations since june 2023
Uh have resulted in 2.3 million dollars in recovered registration and taxes
81 criminal investigations to get 2 million bucks
The waste and fraud that happens at the state level is like that's the tiniest drop in the bucket
I'm talking that the government wastes
to I keep going back to Ohio
2020
The uh, the like covet unemployment right where you could just file unemployment because covet
two billion dollars worth of fraud
At the state level where a fraudulent claims against this unemployment program
2 billion freaking dollars and there were inches to do we got 2 million bucks back
81 criminal investigations. Okay. It's just like it's it's uh, god
scale is hard however
The fact that they are auditing dealers and going after dealers
They're basically claiming while they're looking for dealers who are participating in these schemes
And they've found some and we will link this in our show notes
Reading the complaint is pretty scary because they are
Yeah, they've gotten
warrants obviously to
Obtain phone records and they're posting text messages to substantiate these 57. I think it was
Counts that they are charging against these 14 individuals
And a number of these are dealers who have, uh, produced
fraudulent bills of ladings
Where they basically made up a pdf charged somebody 200 to do it and put signatures on them
stating that these cars were being
delivered out of state now california
has
Had a long history of being very very diligent about
collecting sales tax and if you are from a
Non california state and you take delivery within the state you have to pay sales tax
So you basically or you have to prove that you take it out of state
So you essentially have to prove that you're removing the vehicle from california
Even if you're not a california resident in order to not pay california tax and dealers know that this is a big deal
They have to be very diligent about that
Uh, so it's no surprise to these dealers that they have to provide these bills of lading
And it's even more so when you're we're selling to montana LLC
But
Filing fake bills of ladings
On the dealer side
That's sketchy
What's more crazy is they are
Charging a number of these dealers with money laundering
Based on checks or wire transfers that they have received
now
That feels intense
Well, but we don't know why because the charges are essentially one paragraph
So we don't know why but but the the text of it says
Uh, so and so did unlawfully conduct a transaction involving monetary insurance of value exceeding $5,000 through a financial institution
With the intent to promote manage establish carry-on and facilitate criminal activity
Or knew the monetary instruments represented the proceeds of or were derived directly or indirectly from the proceeds of criminal activity
And violation of penal code section blah blah blah blah a felony
$443,741 check from an account at wells fargo bank
The question is
Did the crime happen before this like was this
proceeds or are they saying
That because you're planning to evade sales tax that this then is now money laundering because you're
Participating in a crime like your plan is to commit a crime as a result of this transaction
Ah, that's just
And if that's the case i'm like come on man money laundering conspiracy like just collect your sales tax
Move on
the the
now whistle and diesel
wants his his his uh day in in this
Not day in corp day in like the court of public opinion here because one of the articles did note that in 2024
the california department of tax and feed administration notified
uh california dealers that they were essentially like cracking down on this and make sure your ducks are in order
They sent letters and you know whistle and diesel and they never sent me a letter
They never sent me a warning. They just came and arrested me. Well
I don't think they sent a warning to these 14 individuals that are charged, but the lesson here is
Like looking at this 57 criminal charges money laundering conspiracy like those are big
Those are big penalties. This is long prison time
I know one of the guys who's named in here. He's a customer of mine. He's a nice guy
He he just didn't want to pay sales tax. He's been paying sales tax for every paid sales tax on the cars
He bought for me. I went back and my text messages and checked because i'm like looking at the timeline like
like
I
I I get it. I get it. They put Wesley Snipes in jail for tax evasion, but freaking one pay your taxes
On your cars. It's just it's not worth the fight. It's not worth staying up at night
to
To the government freaking give this up already like who who freaking cares
Like it's it's sales tax. You really like make it easier for people and they'll pay their sales tax
That's the thing is if you make it easier than not paying it people will usually just pay it exactly
exactly
Uh, anyway, if you would like to read more including the entire criminal complaint, we will reference all that stuff
we'll link all of the articles and
Press releases and stuff in the show notes so you can check it out. There's our opinion on it
I told you so I told you so I told you so this is going to keep happening
It's just not worth it
I did look up to see if whistlin diesel had any updates and
Nothing since he was arrested again in like january or something. So it's it's going to take a long time
These things take a long time to flesh out
Uh speaking of montana license plates
I accept the segway
Accept the segway plate to sample
We are going to read off a vanity plate and the other person has to guess
What in the world?
Car this plate goes on because the meaning is patently obvious people are advertising something about themselves. It's like a tattoo
And uh, can we accurately judge the stereotype? I've got four. You've probably got five
So I'll let you start and end. Oh, okay
Doug for you from mitchell m
If you want to send me license plates, you know, maybe I'm not as popular as dug
That's a really long vanity plate that you know, I realized I wanted to do that first
So I'll get to the plate in a second
You can go to switchcast.live and submit them right through the webpage
They'll come to my inbox and then we can try to trip dug up and embarrass him on his own show
Doug now the first plate for you oil leak
Audi
No
Aston martin no
mg
No Ferrari nope
Audi no
Still no it is an e46 bmw
325 xi looks like no no
Well, there it's an Ohio plate so we can go find I don't know man
325 it's the inline four single valve cover like
325 is a six 323 is a four
Sorry, yeah 325 six still inline six one of the most reliable engines 25 relaked oil a bit
A little bit valve cover like where yeah
Valve covers is done a couple times like that's not one that's notorious for no, it's not there's there's way better cars that that would fit
It's one of the best engines ever made well now nobody else can have that plate in the state of Ohio too
They've stolen it. I guess so I guess so I am going I bought a car
I'm not gonna tell you I already have the vanity plate picked out you bought did you buy it when you were in Amelia?
No, I mean kind of I it's not in it's local. I made I got confirmation
I did try to buy it Amelia Island. We'll talk about that later, but I have a amazing vanity plate
We're gonna I got to keep this a secret from him. I got not posted on social media
Okay, this is gonna be tough. This is gonna be good though. Okay gay Ted
And the is this license plate frame. Yes, that's the license plate g a y t e d
No space and the license plate frame has a rainbow on it
Oh, this is gonna be like a Ferrari or a Lamborghini with a gated manual transmission. Dang it
That's I like that play. That's that's that's a it's a fun time tried to trip you up, but it's an Audi r8
Ah close enough. That's an astronaut
I'm just kidding. I was gonna say
It was the other meaning
I actually didn't check I should have that would have been the ultimate
up badging flex
For like who nobody's gonna get it. Uh, all right next up from john t. No spark
n o s p r k
is that a
Ford
Super duty new like a seven three diesel some sort of you're on the right track, but no
Uh, it can't be an ev because ev is all sparks, right? Yeah, lots of sparks. There's a
Uh
No spark
You were a Chevy spark. No
It is a diesel Mercedes ml 250. Okay, so as we're on the right track pretty close. That's a great plate. Okay
I'm proud of myself for at least getting this is a diesel. No, you dig it. All right. Uh, this one from john sabo at the cleavan auto show
Uh, Ohio plate one of three
And I guess I appreciate the honesty
It's not a corvette
Can't be they're all one other on it's impossible. Um, shoot
The heck is this gonna be one of three?
Is this some like a 60s muscle car? No
Um, is it a Mustang of sorts? It was a Mustang guy. Is it a corvette?
Nope. Okay. Yeah, I didn't think so. No, what is it? It's a sob
What?
Yeah, oh that tracks. I had to consult with my
resident sob expert nick kruger, but it's some rare color blue sob nine
five
Cabriolet aero package whatever so it's probably one of three
And I was like, you know, it honestly is probably just one of three total remaining period
Sob convertibles they didn't even need to get down to the options. Just it's just
There's only three good ones left. Yeah, there's an infamous website that has all the late sob production numbers broken down
Engine transmission color everything and sob owners love that website
Well, I love the website too because it's awesome
But like they are very proud that they can get those numbers. Yeah, and they're all and they're all
A lot of them are very low is a red sedan says something something rare
So this guy's really proud that his cars are rare
Which I just be more proud of that they're still like it's running running and not rusted out
I was looking the flex. I was looking for it
What was it a 93 vegan for a while because I thought they're pretty sweet and there's like none left in good shape
And they're all way too much money
All right, next up for you dug barb left
Corvette
Oh
No, it is a c6
Oh, probably had a c8 until she left and took all his money
And it looks pretty hopped up. There looks to be some support beam under the the transaxle or something
I don't know. It's a looks pretty toasty. So all righty
I don't know like
All right, carrying on even a car. I don't know the engine's normally back there for me. I don't
This one from uh, jason giordano
My cat
It's a jag. Yes
Wow, but what kind of jag is this going to be like an f type? No
Is it an s type? No
What else would it
Is it like a like an x kr or something x j r. Okay. I'll accept all black
Yeah, so it's a black cat
Michael m p before we go
Um
Mm forward transit van because he's got nine kids
No, but your head's in the right direction 40 conalign van. No, not quite that GMC
Whatever their van is I some hunday crossover suv thing
I didn't I don't actually have the model and I don't it's just the hunday badge. Okay. All right
I'll give myself a quarter of a point for that one this one. I took at the amelia island concor
uh old shoe
Is this a bmw clown shoe? Dang it
It's too easy. I love the clown shoe the context and it's evergreen. Oh evergreen m coop. What? Yeah
Yeah, I want I want okay last one for last for you rosers
Browsers no rosers rosers
I feel like there's a reference here that I don't get so I'm not even gonna try to guess
Uh, it is a volts wagon westphalia done up with a polizei livery. So rosers is
Something james may always calls the police. Yes. Okay. I knew there was something there that I didn't know
Definitely not browsers though
Speaking of amelia island I was down at the amelia island concor this weekend and it's the plate
What a quick segue and uh, yeah, I'm getting good at this old old hat stuff is uh
Um speaking of old hat. I've got a new hat. This one is brought to you by our new sponsor
I'm gonna attempt to do a live sponsor read. Yeah, you know, you can um
No, okay, eventually we'll get this this
This is why it's a preview episode
All right, here we go again preview episode imagine two identical vehicles same year options mileage color and price the only difference
one of them
One of them was used as a Porsche text
Well, this seems oddly specific
As a product placement, which one would you buy?
The undamaged one because a clean vehicle history preserves value and I would add especially so in
Uh, this the the day and age of collector cars skyrocketing in value clean vehicle history being even more important on a percentage in actual value basis
So anyway, that is the definition of diminished value the loss in your vehicle is worth after an accident even if it's repaired perfectly
supercarclaims.com
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Good job
All right last week we talked about our predictions of Amelia Island auction results
We did and I hate talking about number
listening to
Another automotive podcast, which I never do and they were waxing eloquent about numbers, but it really was just
I don't know. It's it's again. It's the whole money enthusiast thing. Correct. I like betting though. Well, no, that's
Right or wrong. So how did we do in terms of?
Uh, the old wonder I uh, did you have a good time, Doug? Because let me tell you I did not predict
How much I would miss going to Amelia this year. I was a sad boy. I had a great time
It was lighter that it was the auctions were more fun on two counts one
The numbers weren't crazy other than in a few very specific niches
Kind of what we heard about meekum Kasemi, right? You had the Bachman collection and the 918 paint to sample
Gulf orange whatever it was pure orange
Those weren't for crazy money. Everything else was business as usual and that was great. Like there was this exhale of just like
Oh cars are normal
People are evaluating them on their own merits not to like wow, what's it gonna be worth tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow
When I think that's something that really kills me and I like I like the betting
I like the oh, I like the seeing the cars and seeing the energy in the room and being a part of it
And I'm not bidding but like just being present. Yeah
What I don't find fun is when everything goes for millions of dollars
And I can't nor what I would think is a kind of normal stuff goes for bananas money and it's like well
I can't afford that like that's not fun to watch. It's not fun to experience
But a mirror going for zillions of dollars or whatever. Yeah. Yeah
The the best thing so obviously there's the the competition for moda miami rmsothabes took their talents to south beach and
Um
How is that impacted Amelia now? I don't have the stats on you know the the actual number of participants number of cars
And and number of attendees of the actual Amelia concor, but I can tell you
um
from
A firsthand perspective
Like I could sit down at the gooding auction
Never in the 10 years that I've been going there have I've been able to just like have seats
Even if I had reserve seats, they were all full. They were all oversold. It was like the airlines
This was great. I had two seats and I had my 10 best friends next to me
It was like it just you could breathe you could move it was great
It didn't seem to impact the numbers significantly people were still bidding what they should bid on cars
Same thing at broad arrow. There are seats
And you just you had room to move and I like that because I'm agoraphobic
Obviously, they want the hype they want more and more and more and more people
But I'm like that doesn't make it better
There seemed to be a few less cars at the Amelia concor, but the quality was not lacking at all
It was really fantastic
Um, they moved the awards thing. They had this nice drive over
uh award station
Awards stand with the the club Amelia and and all the the spectators like right there. It seemed like a better layout
Um, there were some things they didn't do as well
But you know, that's it is what it is
But they they definitely made improvements over the first year that haggardy took it over. So it was a really good time
Um, and we did spend a lot of time at the auctions and I did try to buy a car there
You did I did. How are you feeling?
Fine, okay, uh, so
I wasn't going to talk about until it happened or didn't happen
but
Corvette c6 rs
Number 007 the red one the one that I had on consignment that I did a review with matt fairer of the smoking tire on
15 16 17 years ago
It's still up there if you want to go find the scorned lover car
That I tried to buy back that video's on vin wiki from like eight years ago
and
This car popped up at gooding. I'm like, I got to have that car back
It was lot number 101, which means it was the first car to go off on Friday morning at gooding
And nobody in the room knew or cared what it was except I heard rick hendrix was bidding on it
So I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, he tapped out before I did most other people were just like, what is this?
Why is there a corvette c6 here?
Um, and I was so cool against it. They oh
So when you bid at an auction
Car people will know this if you haven't done it before it's like they'll start an opening bid. You never you just sit there and wait
And this is what they did. They started at 100 grand. Nobody. Nobody. Nobody. All right. Give us 50
Nobody nobody nobody and I'm like, okay. I'm just gonna sit like I wanted that car. I was there to buy that car
I just sat sat and waited
Somebody bid 50 and I'm like
All right, 55
60 65 70 75 and it kind of like slowed down. I'm like
I'm gonna buy this car for 80 grand
Yeah, because it was no reserve. There's no reserve
For context the corvette c6 rs was built by pratt and miller. It is the street version
It's not a homologation, but it is a street version of the corvette c6 our race car
They actually used the body molds unlike kit cars that claim
Oh, we use real Ferrari molds over our fiera
No, they used the real molds from the corvette c6 r race car with all the louvers and everything the wide body
And it's a fully carbon fiber bodied corvette c6 with an 8.2 liter naturally aspirated k-tech engine
600 horsepower 600 foot-pounds of torque the torque curve isn't a curve. It's a friggin tabletop
And the interior is all redone with properly bolstered seats
That the average corvette owner couldn't fit in
Full leather with stitching and it's just like everything you complain about a
Corvette for being a general motors product they fixed it is the absolute best interior that's ever been in a corvette until the c8
Like it's just it's awesome. It's awesome. It's a proper car
There's seven of them all new suspension wheels brakes like it's a lamar car for the street
So i'm like nobody cares here nobody knows what it is
I'm gonna win this thing cheap and then I kept going and kept going and kept going kept going finally so it got up to 100
My last bid was 160 and I tapped out. There's nobody in the room bidding. It was just one phone bidder and me
In one phone bidder
And they won it for 165 grand so I didn't buy it
So onto a z8 get a fun z8 so but I would got two months
So yeah, you're really getting down to the wire
I pulled up the the stream from gooding and as I was joining a meeting for work and headed up like on the side as i'm trying to
See me bidding. No, well because they didn't look at the crowd. I was gonna be like, I know that guy
Well, I also wasn't like doing this. I had the the we sat next to the bid
You know, they stand on the platforms and stuff and I would just look at him and nod
So I know now so for context because I was googling here in the background
There is a yellow one that went at the end of february
So just like a couple of weeks ago that bid to 170 and bring a trailer correct the supercharge one number one
That one sold for 335 a couple years ago at gooding. Oh, so
Oh, that's the one we sold to a dealer and then they tried to sell it again at meekum kassimi
Or not kassimi, but a meekum sale at bid to 270 then a year later on bring a trailer bid to 170
so it's like
335 was obviously not the real number for that car
but uh, yeah, I I definitely wanted to own that corvette again
but
It's a very difficult car to use the way I use cars
Because of something happen if you crack one of those carbon fiber panels that was made from the molds from the lema car by
Miller
Like call them up. Okay. Just ship me another panel
Uh, okay. Well, let's find out who we can have manufacturer. We'll get back to you in a few months like
It's not a car. You can just use normally. So
Um, okay, but let's talk about our bets
Uh, we will refresh your memory. You don't have to go back and listen to the old episode
But if you want to you can
We bet on what estimates were low or high
We're just way off and what cars would exceed or fall short of the auction houses estimates
Let's see how we did starting with gooding
The Porsche Carrera GT with 800 miles
Their estimate was 1.5 to 1.8. I believe it was I called that their estimate was way low
I was super right the most right. I'll be for this entire segment
It hammered for 2.8 25, which is more than a million bucks over their high estimate
I bet gooding loves being wrong like that. It's good for marketing
And I love it when I'm that wrong on the right side as well
That better than the other way
Your turn. All right. So I was pretty certain that that roof
928 would pop off because somebody was gonna just go bananas over it and it did not
So the an app we love to use to look at these prices hammer price still lists it as not sold
Surprisingly, so it must have sold after the fact because gooding's website lists it as sold at 335
Which is insane. So let me let me tell you about that car. Were you there when this went across? I was there
Okay, it's a roof fin car which typically means like when we think about like roof
Rgt's for example of which there was two down there a roof fin car means roof bought a chassis
and an engine from Porsche and
Maybe some body panels and they essentially disassembled the car disassembled the engine made it from scratch
It is their own car. They manufactured the car and they
You know, they've done everything from
What we might consider mild performance mods and suspension to full
We created a car from the ground up and engineered our own chassis
in my opinion the 928 r
is
Below any of those it was not originally made by them
It was I think a Japanese collector who wanted the car and sent it to them and said hey
Build this so it's like the equivalent of buying a bunch of roof parts and sticking them on they did nothing to the motor which is
A crappy motors a 928 s4. It's an automatic transmission car. They put ceramic brakes wheels on it
Like maybe some suspension like it the car looked like a 928 with roof wheels on it
There was nothing special about it. And when we got there
The sun was shining in just right
That
The front fender was black and the door was gray. Oh the paint
Job was terrible on that car once the sun went away and it was in shadows again. It matched again. Oh, yeah, but
I just
To me a hundred thousand dollars was too much for that car
It did nothing for me a 928 gts
In my opinion besides the roof badge and the roof hype and I love you roof. I love all you people there
I'm not trying to you know hate on roof. I think they're awesome. Take a roof over a singer any day this car
Should not have a roof in and it shouldn't go for 300 grand like I I the the person who buys this
Is probably gonna be like
Oh, I have a purchase hangover
Well, yeah, because it's because I was assuming without knowing anything. I didn't do any research
I was like, oh man like a hot rod
928 by roof is gonna be sweet people are gonna pay up for and that's not what it is. No
Nope, so I was wrong. We were all wrong. We were all wrong
Diablo six liter that gooding had I said their estimate was way low is 550 to 650 k
There's multiple transactions recently that say that that was low. I was half right the high asmo 650 it sold for 675
I'm gonna say there's a reason why I was only half right
In my opinion, it is unfortunate that the photo showed it as essentially pewter
When it was actually gray they made grizzio and terrors look like grizzio ingrid and we all know how people feel about grizzio ingrid
It's old man tan. It's the same color as the ai catillac deville
I'm bringing trailer and every other catillac deville in bokeh retone florida
uh
Because we got there and I saw it. I'm like, this is gray. I thought it was gold even in the description on classic.com
I said gray gold
I'm like, what no, this is a gray car and it was beautiful
I legitimately think and I checked. I'm wearing my dynamic photo works
shirt
Our boy josh is a photographer for gooding and other people who does it on contract and I texted him. I'm like, did you photograph this car?
Because I'm about to roast you
I think that those photos cost that car a hundred grand
Because if you looked at it online
And saw that you go, I don't want a gold diablo
Yeah, and that's it and I didn't look at it afterwards and I noticed it's what the color they call titanium
Which was common on the 6o's and that color
Does photograph very differently in different lights. Yeah, a lot of times it'll look
Very gray other times. It'll be this
goldish
Brownish hue. Yeah, this looks so gold. It does not look gray at all credit to the photographer
They probably went, oh man, this color is popping like from a photographic artistic perspective
100% win
But if you understand the automotive market that that color is terrible for resales the kiss of death, then you go
We got to redo these we have to show the color for what it is
so
uh
I was right again on the 968 turbo s and the
964 968 turbo rs both of them were
Predicted to be the first million dollar 968. I said the world is not ready for that
I was correct the turbo s no sailed at 775 and the turbo rs sold for 700
I just look I I love a 968. I think they look awesome. I think it's a cool piece of Porsche history
They're great to drive the only way that we will get to a million dollar 968 is when inflation takes us there
I mean, it's already gotten us way too close
But like they're in no way is any of them worth that kind of money. Just not it
It's fine everybody. You can accept that. It's not going to be like a 911
My picks for deals of that auction. There's always good deals that people are sleeping on
2017 Aston Martin v12 vantage s seven speed manual one of 36 in the u.s at hammered for measly 215 grand probably the best
Driving experience you can buy for that cheap and there's a 2002 ferrari 575 m f1 in roso fiorano with a
beautiful two-tone brown and beige interior
Uh sabo and I looked at that very closely. We planned to bid we left
I didn't text my guy at good thing to be like, hey bid on this it hammered for a measly
125
And we were gonna stick swap that drive it for season and then sell it on bring a trailer for 200 because that's probably what it
Would go in burgundy car with two tone
beige
Daytona seats like
It was beautiful. It was a clean from the photos. That was a gorgeous car
It was gorgeous in person all the headlight seals all the window seals were good like that car was money
And it didn't bring the money. It was very close to the end of the auction. That's not always a good thing
Uh, so that that was our our miss of the auction because we should have picked that one up
You know, I assumed that the xjr 15 was going to go cheap
But it actually didn't it sold right in smack in the middle of the of the estimate at like a million bucks
So I I'm just not good at this stuff. I'm four for four. I'm I am very not good at this
But I try right the the roof and to always go plus or minus a million bucks
What about the roof uh the the roof at uh bed broad arrow did go above estimate at least the rg
One of the rgt's the orange over red tan went for 300. Yes
And we should cover four of the 17
Worldwide roof v in rgt's have sold in the last couple weeks
Gooding 31,000 mile blue gray car sold for 245 broad arrow the 32,000 mile orange car sold for 300
Dupont registry live a 36k mile car in silver with I think the wrong recaro seats
They're not the same euro. Yeah, all the other ones have that doesn't mean it's the wrong one
Maybe it's spec differently. Anyway, that one sold for 281 five, which I think was all the money for that
I'm surprising to me. That was the most boring one because it was just silver. Yeah
And bring a trailer midnight gray with 19,000 miles sold for 306. So by far
I think the best deal was the one at gooding
For for 245 plus fees about 265 with fees
I wonder when the last time that many of them changed hands in like a month. It was probably when they were new
Well, they're 2001. We're at 25 years
So they can be imported so people are bringing them in now previously you were limited to I think the four that they
Officially imported originally to the United States. So all of a sudden now people are bringing them over and trying to make bank
off of the arbitrage
Okay, uh, is that all of yours at gooding?
Yeah, okay, broad arrow
I said the 360 challenge stradale the estimate was low that it could kiss a million because we referenced a 2600 mile car on bat
Uh, which sold for 971 thousand dollars granted that one had a factory stripe
Which still rains the supreme in stradale world and it was the launch spec of rosa skirtaria with the red and black alcantara interior
So big money there the estimate
Uh for the one at broad arrow, which had 3,800 miles rosa skirtaria black leather
No stripe was six to 700k. I thought that was low. Well, it sold for the high estimate of 700
So I was somewhat wrong
But we've talked before about like online auctions versus in person
So if you think about it the delta
You know forgetting the
Difference in specs and whatever like you could say the delta is due to the stripe
But the delta between what the seller net on the bring-a-trailer sale and the broad arrow sale is nearly
350,000 dollars
For almost identical cars
That's crazy. This this is why as much as I enjoy the spectacle and the experience of a physical auction
It's awesome. It's so much fun. I just I don't understand why people sell their cars there
Like you're you're 25 behind right or 20 behind right off the bat between what the buyer pays and what you net
Versus an online auction platform
Audience is smaller it's like it's very specific. You've got to be in the know or at the event and it's yeah
Also the vin on the stradale ended in 6 6 6 which any car besides the diablo might be a deterrent
Like I'm you may think i'm joking, but that's a very real thing for car buyers of certain cultures. I was once asked
About a crerogy t that I had for sale and the buyer's first
Criteria their first question was does the vin end in six?
Because if so they weren't gonna buy it
That's insane to me right so to have a stradale ending in 6 6 6 like there's a lot of people that are superstitious enough
That they wouldn't buy it
Which that's cool. I'm not superstitious. I'm just a little stitious
So I'd still buy it
Your turn all right well, we've already talked about um
I brought up the rgt already and then we've talked about the the 9 6 8s
So we really just like blew away my top my uh all of my guesses off the rip
Were you right or wrong on the rgt? I forgot already. I was right that it was gonna go for more
Good, it wasn't like a crazy amount more, but it was a high estimate was 280 right on that one
Yeah, some are in there so it did exceed the estimate good
Um, but then the obviously we've talked about the 9 6 8s didn't hit the estimate went for like 7 75
Yeah, just still a lot of money for a 9 6 8 still a lot of money
My other one was a 997.2 gt3 rs. It was a white car
No particular
options
To set it apart from others. I said the estimate was way high which was 450 to 550
I was right it hammered for 395 which is still more than I thought it would fetch. I think I lost a
In-person bet with whoever I was betting on the over under there
We set a number and bet a dollar and I think I lost that bet, but I'm like well still
Still won the switch cast that's just so much money
So much oh my goodness so much money
Okay, well this brings us to the props and flops as always they're brought to you by switch cars
And switch cars is the enthusiast dealership where we buy and sell cars that we like ourselves and consign
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Check out our handpicked inventory at switchcars.com and mention switch cast for special pricing win available
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dug
Pick of the week pick of the week is a car that we've had before it's a 1982 portion ninal ebbon sc
Outlaw build steel wide body fenders irok style
uh
Front and rear bumpers
lightweight interior 3.6 liter vario ram engine
Still the 915 gearbox but it's got the wevo shifter and wevo engine and transmission mounts
Elephant racing suspension parts it is light it is stiff
It is powerful and it makes a mental sound and you can buy for only $120,000. It is awesome. It's a true
Quality build which is rare in the outlaw world
Our flop of the week and prop of the week are going to be
Amelia island related our flop of the week
Gooding christie's new logo. So it's no longer gooding in company. It's gooding christie's
merger buyout whatever it was
So they merged the companies and unfortunately also merged the logos
It looks like an aerial font g inside of times new roman c
Big swing and a miss and the the color change from blue to red sucks
Yeah
I pulled up the stream and was so disappointed because you used to walk in and it was this elegant blue and everything was very chill
And whatever now it was just this like red in your face. So yeah, but all the people are still there
And I have to say overall I prefer the experience of the gooding auction to the others
Charlie as the auctioneer is fun. His energy is great. It's amazing. I think they employ a lot of
Superb car enthusiasts. I'm not saying that the other ones don't by just I I love the overall experience of gooding
versus the others. So just
Fix your dang logo. I feel like both of them had big egos and they're like, I want my font. No, I want my font
Okay, well, we'll just do both of them because we can't and just give just somebody just somebody
Give up your ego for the greater good
The greater gooding
Change it to papyrus
Uh, a prop of the week
record sale for a Lamborghini mirror at broad arrow and for good reason
It was a late p400sv with a split sump oiling system
Which is simply just separate
oil
systems for the engine and gearbox
which
You know until
I would have I guess in modern times we just think like that's an that just always existed
But apparently it didn't I was gonna say isn't like every car like that. I thought they were two separate things
Right. Well, it was a big deal then because then oh, well, we can run the correct
type of oil in each one. Can you imagine putting 75 90 in your engine?
Huh like glue
Well, and then you're not you know intermixing
Gear material if you miss a gear into your engine
So that's a big deal for that car. It's a good color blue, right blue is the color of money nowadays
All original car low original miles. I think it was 18,000 miles incredible provenance
It was the right car to set a record and it sold for over six million dollars, which is like just the new
Standard for supercars. It's like a you know paint sample career gt paint sample 918
F50 etc like they're just all six plus now. That's just the new
Million-dollar mark. I did appreciate that it was actually a paint to sample career gt
And not something somebody painted at some point and all the friggin influencer yabbo's are talking about like
Paint the sample
Get out here. Love it, right?
We forgot to put their sign up. I've got it in a box here that I didn't unwrap before the show
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