The Next Miata Might Be a Toyota? EV Tax Credit Killed, End of Cheap Electric Cars?

Hello, and welcome to this car pod.

I'm Kenan. I'm Felipe.

And there's a lot to cover today.

Let's start with the news.

The big news of the week, the Lexus LS is dead.

Yeah, big news of the week, huh?

Let me tell you something.

It was the Jaguar XJ first.

Okay.

Well, because big full-size luxury sedans.

First they came for the Jaguar XJ.

Full-size luxury sedans used to be a big deal.

Yeah.

Like when I was a kid, there was no luxury SUVs,

which obviously all these buyers are buying now.

They're buying Range Rovers and all that.

There was none of that.

And a big luxury sedan was how you told people that, like,

you had made it.

That was the flagship.

It was the flagship of the brand.

And it was the flagship.

It was like what people wanted to be seen in.

Flagship of status.

A big-body Mercedes, Princess Diana.

Like if you were a mover and a shaker,

you had a full-size luxury sedan.

Sure.

The XJ is gone.

Jaguar doesn't make one anymore.

Nope.

The Lexus LS, which was a segment pioneer, really,

in a lot of ways.

That's now gone.

The Audi A8 is next.

Mark.

Oh, I got it.

How many Lexus LSes do you think they sold last year?

20,000.

I'm sorry?

11,000.

I'm sorry?

6,100.

21,63.

Wow.

By the way, the data that I...

What was the best?

I don't have it before 2005.

This is from Good Cartman.

What was it in 2005?

In 2005 it was 26,000.

What was it in 2008?

That was the new...

In 2007 it was 20,000.

Wow.

In 2007 it was 35,000.

Okay.

So that was the year that the LS forced it.

10% of what?

20 years ago.

It's a trickle.

The market is no longer registering these cars.

And it's crazy to imagine.

It's funny because we've watched some of these automakers pull out of some of these once

popular segments, right?

The Ford Fusion and the Chevy and Malibu mid-sized sedans.

Sad, but true.

And what happens when that happens is it leaves behind only the esteemed players, minivans,

right?

People backed out of minivans and only left the Odyssey and the Chrysler and that's going

to happen here too.

And it will leave.

There will always be an S-class, but there will not always be the fringe cars.

Like the non...

Do you think there will always be a seven series?

I really don't think BMW should keep putting money into that car.

I don't know why they do it.

I don't understand it.

Heritage, I think that might be the only reason.

They're still probably making money on it and they still sell in Europe, whereas this

car doesn't have a Europe to sell to in China.

Keep China in mind.

Large sedans do well there.

I don't think Lexus has any presence there.

Yeah.

But it's gone.

That's the end.

There's a 2026, like final...

They're doing a final run-out model special edition thing to commemorate the end.

If they really cared, they would do it with the same wheels as the oldie.

Yeah.

I think that actually would be pretty cool, stronger than the 1990s version.

You know what the...

It is the heritage edition, by the way.

You know what the irony is?

I truly mean this.

The best LS...

Is the newest one.

The speaker grills.

I love this car.

It's just that the market doesn't exist for it anymore.

The market just doesn't exist for it anymore.

But if you want to buy a used one, I got a place for you to do it.

Dude, go on the site.

We've sold some of that LS500.

Type in LS500.

They're so true.

Or LS with it.

33 Gs.

This was a year ago, 42.5.

These are incredibly impressive cars to own and operate.

Click on that one.

Look at the interior.

I know.

If it has the speaker grills, they're so cool.

It's a beautiful interior.

Remember how they had folded cloth on the door panels?

Yep.

I'm telling you, this is a really nice car that's going to last forever.

And we're selling them in the 30s, which also speaks to the market demand.

When did this car come out?

2018?

Yeah, 2018.

Spring 2018.

So we're also on year seven of the life cycle.

It was time to either redesign or end, and we weren't going to redesign.

Plus Toyota has the crown.

They got the crown.

And that really does it all.

Okay, speaking of dead things, next news story.

This isn't a dead thing.

No.

We got a bunch of dead news stories.

We got a bunch of dead things.

Okay.

There was a report this week that for the next generation Mazda Miata, the NE, and the

next generation Scion, Toyota 86, FRS, whatever they call it now, they, Mazda and Toyota

are going to partner on this next generation two-seat sports car.

The Mazda Miata will be a Toyota GR86, BRZ, Scion FRS.

So the way that this report was framed was basically that GR Toyota will partner with

Mazda on it.

But really Mazda is developing the car, Toyota will sell it.

The GR management has made really clear that they are capable of building their own cars.

They are capable of developing their own cars, but that they also think there's more room

for some partnership.

Well, Toyota has a stake in Mazda.

Sounds right.

Toyota has a stake in Mazda.

Toyota has a stake in everything.

No.

Most of Subaru.

No.

They own part of Mazda.

Toyota owns.

Give me it on AI.

5.1%.

There is a reason to have a partnership.

It makes sense.

Here's one question I have.

Does this mean we're done with BRZ?

Are we just submitting it's over?

Let's talk about it for a second.

Hey now.

Nice.

Does what dreams are made of?

Don't dream it's over.

All right.

It'll be sad.

Are you aware that starting in 2026, the BRZ, the base BRZ is $5,000 more than the base

GR86?

And are you aware that the base BRZ starting in 2026 is more expensive than a base Mustang?

Okay.

Mustang MSRP is $34,000 for an EcoBoost.

The BRZ starts at $35,000.

Yeah.

So a Mustang is cheaper than a BRZ.

But what's the-

Why?

Content differences.

Subaru is cutting out their premium trim, which is their base trim, and it's only going

to have limited and the other one.

I got to tell you though, that's not competitive anymore.

Base to base, I might prefer a BRZ.

But what do you spend, if you're going for the base model, wouldn't you spend $5,000

less than just get the BRZ?

Probably.

But okay, fine.

Like $35,000 is my number.

Base Mustang or a really nice BRZ.

The BRZ drives really well.

But it's also such a smaller, less powerful vehicle.

Well, I would get a GR86.

Right.

For $30,000.

Because it's becoming clear to me that Subaru maybe doesn't want to be a part of this anymore.

It's also their only non-all-wheel-drive car.

They should make a Daihatsu.

They should.

Because Toyota owns all those brands, or has a stake, I don't want to say owns.

Has a stake in Mazda, Subaru, and Daihatsu.

Yep.

They should do a Daihatsu version.

Right, with a great sporting lineage.

They definitely should add to it.

Where are they selling the Daihatsu version?

It matters to us.

First off, the whole world matters to us.

I want to say hello to our readers in Senegal.

Watchers.

Bonjour.

Look at that 9.3 turbo model.

We'll come back to it.

But regardless, the next generation, I expected the next generation Mazda Miata will be a

true successor to this Mazda Miata.

The GR86 will, I think, feel different than it does right now, because it'll be built

in part of the Mazda.

I'm cool with this.

These cars make sense to pair up.

Obviously, the big difference, and I'm curious how they'll address this, is the coupe convertible

thing.

Now, the Supra is a coupe, and the Z4 is a convertible, so maybe that's just what they'll

do again.

Who knows?

Maybe the Toyota version will be better.

It's interesting, and it makes sense, and I'm here for it.

These are two of the greatest driving, affordable, lightweight rear-wheel-drive cars in existence.

You might as well put them together.

You know what nobody cared about?

The Fiat 124, which was also Miata.

Well, it was uglier with the worst powertrain.

Yeah.

Well, that's that.

And it had that horrible body line on the front fender.

I did have that.

It was a rough one.

Give us the next thing.

This is a dead news story.

The Acura ZDX is dead, been around for like a year.

How's it dead already?

I want to say something about this.

Yeah.

It came out.

We barely covered its arrival a year ago.

Why would we have?

Who cares?

Yeah.

I think we moved very quickly through it, if we're honest.

It's actually kind of funny because it was only on sale for one model year.

The new ZDX was even a bigger failure than the old ZDX, which is hard to believe because

the old ZDX was famously a failure.

It's like known as like a famous automotive failure, even though it looks exactly like

a Model Y.

Although you see a lot of ZDX's near-accurate dealerships in places where low-least steels

are attractive.

Yeah.

I mean, that was the only way they could get rid of these was low-least steels.

And today, which we'll cover in a second, the federal EV incentive is gone, and not

coincidentally, Acura has announced that the ZDX will no longer sell.

You're going to see some of these EVs come off the market with the end of the federal

incentive because the only way some of these cars was selling was incentivized lease deals

and the automaker themselves cannot afford to prop up leases at that level.

I think the interesting thing here is obviously the ZDX for people that don't know is based

on the Blazer EV.

The Blazer EV is also the Honda prologue is also Blazer EV.

So Acura didn't invest that much effort in building this car.

No.

I mean, they re-styled it.

The interior exterior are different.

I think the interior still uses GM's infotainment in part.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

So they didn't go all in on building an EV.

No.

It'll be interesting to see what their takeaway is.

Is it about the EV market?

Is it about not having a competitive entrance in the EV market?

Is it maybe we shouldn't use the Blazer EV as our base?

Honda told me straight up that prologue is named that because it's like the prologue

to what will be great EVs in the future.

Is the ZDX what will be a great EV in the future?

I'm just disappointed.

This is another example of my Honda rant from a few weeks ago.

I'm just disappointed at the level at the approach they're taking to these new segments.

They just seem so committed to their core that they're afraid to try anything or do

anything.

And they've been developing this EV with Panasonic.

They have the Afila, which is Sony.

Afila.

The Sony Afila is a Honda Sony collaboration.

But it's taken years.

We're all waiting.

Prologue is going to be epilogue here in a minute.

Nice.

I'm thinking about that all week.

No where to go after that.

Yeah.

No.

I don't know.

It's an interesting situation.

You're going to see some of these EVs coming off the market after the EV incentive goes

away.

This is just the first casualty.

The ZDX looks good though.

It looks good.

It is good.

The Blazer EV is a good EV.

It's just too expensive and not particularly compelling and too expensive for the range

and performance that it offers.

It's hard to justify without significant incentives.

And Acura was throwing in a bunch of cash on it, as was the federal government.

Now if some of it's gone away, Acura can't fill the rest of the hole.

The car is gone.

We will not miss it.

Wow.

One model.

We won't miss it.

And I'll tell you, this is going to become like the Blackwood.

Like we're going to, in 10 years, we're going to be like, I saw a ZDX today.

There are a lot.

That's a great point.

There are a lot of those.

Yeah.

Such a good point.

Speaking of, when was the last time you saw an original ZDX?

That's not that old a car.

Rarely.

No.

It was like 9, 10, 11.

Rarely.

I would freak out.

Better car.

You'd freak out.

I would.

Wow.

You remember the Honda version?

The Honda, the, a cord cross-door was not related to ZDX.

All right.

I get why you think that, but you know better.

Another car that's dead.

No, I'm kidding.

No.

This is very much alive.

It's very much alive.

For now.

The new Cayenne EV.

This is pretty exciting.

I have to say.

We've been talking about how unexcited we are about the Cayenne EV.

It's cool.

I made you both watch a video, but no, I've not watched the video.

The video is cool.

It's cool.

It's great.

There's this German fella who's on YouTube.

Not me, by the way.

It's a well-known German publication, by the way.

Yeah.

It goes auto-build or whatever.

It's not auto-build.

It's the other one.

I don't participate in German language.

Okay?

Can I help with that?

I only know about Berlin.

Oh.

And Frankfurt.

And Cologne.

Okay.

You can name cities.

That's the extent of his German language ability.

I was hoping he would start with Cologne and just go through the engines, but.

This thing looks cool as hell.

Do you have the interior picture?

Yes.

So the big talking point about the car is the screen in the middle, which, to my understanding,

you can have a couple of different options.

This is the full screen.

You can have less screen if you want, specifically, he mentioned American Buyers, we're interested

in that.

But it has a bend in it.

It flows.

The screen is literally curved.

Yeah.

And it's curved.

And it's OLED, which is awesome.

So I think that is so cool.

It's so cool.

It is so legitimate.

Also, I think the car looks good.

They haven't revealed photos.

I don't understand this.

I don't understand how this video exists.

It's a few videos.

It seems like he uncharges it.

Autofold is like a real German, like autofold.

There are a few videos already about it, but there's not, like, good press photos yet.

This is the picture.

The previous photo doesn't really show how the car looks.

I can tell you, though, I'm kind of surprised it looks nice.

And this is the first to.

Well, I'm sorry, Porsche designer.

No, I think the Cayenne has always looked nice, truly even the O3.

But I see I'm surprised because since 11, the Cayenne is basically look the same.

They've done redesigns that, to me, looked like facelifts if we're going to really

call it what it is.

And honestly, it's gotten uglier with each iteration.

This one looks different and it looks good.

The rear end, I like.

The rear end is cool.

The side profile is cool.

The performance powertrain must be insane.

It was crazy.

So this was the turbo model that he reviewed, and it had, you know, 1,000 horsepower and

1,005 Newton meters of torque.

1,000.

1,000?

Damn.

That's what it.

That's what it said.

But it's 0 to 60 in less than, or it's like less than three seconds.

You should be faster than that.

Because it was all in kilometers per hour.

The base model, 500 horsepower, the turbo will exceed 1,000 horsepower.

It was not.

He hit it on the Autobahn.

It was wild.

0 to 60 in under three seconds.

Are we excited about the Cayenne electric now?

No, it's not going to sell well.

It's going to sell well.

It's going to be radically overpriced and it's going to be a total flop.

But I'm not into it than I was.

And I'll tell you this.

I loved the Makani V.

It's a great car.

I think it, the volume expectations are too high.

I think there's a lot of mistakes around that car.

However, it drove fantastically.

And I bet this will be even better.

And it'll be a great luxury SUV too, because Porsche makes a good luxury SUV.

I mean, like I said, even though I liked it, like they had some manual controls in here

which I like for basic things.

And like, I also thought the other thing to talk about is that it has inductive charging.

What car other than-

It does?

Yes.

It has inductive charging.

A huge pad that you can drive over and charge it.

Or charge it.

Slowly.

Well, but it has it.

I mean, the only other car I could think of that has this is the McLaren Speedtail.

So I think that's amazing that what will be a mass produced car will have that.

What I've always been told from every automaker I've asked the question to is that the car

requires too much charging and it can't be done.

There's heat.

There's loss.

It doesn't work like your phone.

The car has so much more energy requirements than your phone that inductive charging doesn't

work.

And maybe it will.

I'm very curious to see how it works.

It'll be hot, I bet.

Oh, yeah.

Well, yes.

And if the Germans feel that it can be done, then there must be something to it.

But I think that's one of the big talking points about the car.

Can I say something like Ken and you said before we started filming today, which is

you were excited by the configurability of the menus.

Yes.

So on the menu-

I don't want to know more.

I just wanted people to know that you specifically said that.

I thought it was cool because like this little section tilts.

And so if you are like in maps or whatever, you can slide up and choose a bunch of different

things that you can adjust on here, clamoring controls or whatever.

And from the top also, you can do the same thing.

I've never saw that I see the day when Ken was excited about it.

Well, the integration of it is really nice.

And the fact, again, I just love the thing.

I'm excited about the whole car.

We've talked to this podcast before about how we are car enthusiasts and are not the

biggest fan of EVs in the enthusiast space.

However, for a luxury vehicle, for a luxury SUV, an EV is a perfectly fine thing.

And Porsche, the Taycan was excellent, the Makani V is excellent.

The market is not necessarily there, but the cars have been great.

And I think this looks like a fantastic iteration.

Very curious to see how it actually is.

27, they say, is the model year.

So we'll see it next year.

Totally.

I also like that it's slightly longer than the gas version.

I thought that was kind of an interesting, but it fits a little dream thing.

Third row dreams.

Oh, wow.

There's supposed to be a larger SUV from Porsche coming.

Yeah, supposedly.

We'll see.

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Next new story, please.

We spoke a couple of weeks ago about how Jaguar Land Rover is in the middle of this

like IT nightmare situation.

They were hacked, held for ransom.

They have to shut down all of their UK factories.

They couldn't pay any suppliers.

They just we have good news.

We have two pieces of good news.

OK.

One of that last week, the UK government backstopped $2 billion in loans,

1.5 billion pounds to $2 billion just about in loans for Jaguar Land Rover.

They might be seeking $2 billion additional dollars from private banks.

This was money from private bank backed up by the government.

So they have money now.

They have run out of money because they couldn't build cars.

Also, after being shut down since August 29th or August 30th,

they were able to restart some of their computer systems

and they could pay their suppliers once again, which is good,

because otherwise the suppliers would all have gone out of business

because they need the revenue every month to pay employees.

OK.

So they're going to take the money from this loan

and use it to pay suppliers that are not currently supplying.

Well, no, they are still supplying.

Just there's no factory going.

There's no cars going through the.

Well, OK, they had to send.

I will argue then that they're not currently.

So the UK government, the British government's biggest concern

was that a bunch of smaller companies in Britain would not get paid,

would not be able to pay their employees and would have like a cascading effect

because obviously automakers rely heavily on other suppliers.

They're not actually a vertically integrated with a couple of exceptions.

And so they rely heavily on those and they need to pay those

for the parts that they receive, right?

Or for other R&D work that's happening or whatever, maybe.

And they've also, by the way, restarted production partially.

Oh, really?

Yeah. So maybe there's none of that story.

You know what this teaches?

And all they do is owe a couple of billion dollars to the government.

This teaches us no computers.

Go back to typewriters and smoking in offices.

Go back to the Mad Men era.

Yeah. No computers.

What do you think of that?

I am not in favor of that.

We run a company that is pretty driven by computers.

Oh, I forgot.

Yeah. I forgot.

This is the problem with this podcast.

I'm not able to freely think because cars and bids is always there's

it's always up there.

You know, I also mean we are on computers.

I'm watching them on their computer to the computerless age.

And I'm saying that I'm giving that great opinion.

But cars and bids comes in and says, no, no, we need computers to function.

You want to build stuff like we do with the Kuntosh?

We got to make a pod where we can just say what we think.

But then how are people going to get it?

Is there a computer?

They'll come in and we'll stand in the square and they'll go here.

The podcast from the town square,

what is the state of California has ruled is like the target parking lot

slash the grocery store parking lots.

Right. Modern town square.

The modern town square.

OK, that's interesting.

It'll be interesting to see how that goes.

Of course, this is the biggest new story of the week.

Glad we put it seventh.

What a federal EV incentive is gone.

We're filming this on the on Wednesday, October 1st.

It is D-Day.

No, no, yesterday.

Yeah, I don't.

Yes, maybe.

If you manufacture bad electric cars, this is D-Day in general.

OK, here's what things get agreed.

So there's for a long time, the federal government has been offering

incentives of up to seventy five hundred dollars to for towards purchases of EVs.

Yeah, these were income tested.

So you had if you were making above a certain amount of money, you could not.

You were not qualified.

But leases, which are not sold to you, are sold to the leasing company did qualify.

And there are a bunch of there are a bunch of rules, right?

The vehicle had to be made in the US or with substantial US parts.

There are a bunch of great stories.

How they cheated their way around this.

Yes, like the Biden administration decided no more blanket, no more blanket

EV tax credit.

We're just going to do it only for people who who make less than a certain amount

of money, because that's what the Libs do.

So that's what they did.

But then they realized the lease company can take the full tax credit

and apply it to the lease.

And so that's anybody who bought EVs before, which was nobody, then nobody bought.

Then it only made sense to lease them because then you could still get the tax

credit, no matter how much money you made, because the leasing company was

the buyer of the vehicle.

And this is the problem with legislation.

We should have none of it.

No legislation, no computers.

I like that that's a good platform.

But the incentive is dead.

There are a few states that are still doing their own state version.

Colorado is one.

California is not.

And the governor of California has explicitly said that this is all

Mary Barrow, the CEO of GM's GMCO's fault.

He's Newsom said it was Mary Barrow's fault that the EV incentive went away.

His Russia.

Yes, his rationale is Mary Barrow specifically petitioned heavily to have

Oh, yeah, against there being fuel economy restrictions.

And he is tying that to that, which is fair and also not fair.

Doesn't really matter.

But here's where it gets interesting.

So there's a few automakers that are trying different things to still sell

EVs, by the way, EV sales in September and in Q3, generally, incredibly strong.

Well, yeah, few companies have reported numbers and their EV sales,

Hyundai Q is one of them.

Ford is one of them.

GM, I think, is also reported.

The thing that's important to remember with those cars specifically is that

those cars are especially dependent on this deal.

So the Ionic 5, which is a $40,000 car, right?

A little more than that.

The 75, yeah, cheap ones.

Cheap ones are like high 30s, low 40s.

That's a great.

$7500, least instead of is 20% of the value of that car.

That's a big deal.

Rivian R1S, it's not as important to people.

So that's where it gets interesting.

So let's use the Ionic 5 as an example.

Hyundai announced today, the day after the incentive event,

that they will continue their own $7500 incentive for a month.

And then in 2026, prices fall by as much as $10,000.

So they are lowering Ionic 5 prices by about the amount of the incentive.

Interesting.

Or if not more, which is interesting.

What about Mach-E?

I don't think they care that much about Mach-E sales anymore.

I'm just kind of done with that.

It's old.

Yeah.

But the other automakers are trying different things.

GM has taken an approach in the last week, which has basically been,

hey, dealership, you can buy the car before the month ends

and then sell it to somebody else later.

They've been quite explicit about it.

In other words, they can take the incentive.

I mean, they can take the incentive as long.

But I do think we'll see Tesla, by the way, has increased their lease prices

because the incentive no longer applies.

That makes sense.

It'll be interesting to see what ultimately is going to have a real effect on the lesser

priced EVs.

EVs, EV sales, which are already milk toast this year generally.

They are milk toast.

Anything but milk toast.

They're the highest they've ever been.

Yeah.

But they're barely rising.

I looked at the numbers the other day that in Q2, they were down.

Well, like Q3, boy, are they up.

Well, I bet your Q4 won't be so strong.

Q4 is likely to be a little weak.

But automakers, I think, on the low priced ones know that prices, how they're competing.

Hyundai knows that they're selling Ionic 5s instead of a Model Y because the price is competitive.

And so they will take losses to keep selling them.

But think about what you're saying.

I mean, that's not a long-term business strategy.

They already have developed the car.

It's already on sale.

They have to kind of keep going with it in some way that they can.

They probably have commitments to Korean unions or suppliers or whatever.

They're going to make this number of cars.

They're going to get the cars out, even if it's profitless.

But do you see a future for these cars?

Who the hell knows?

Without the incentive was an important component of these cars succeeding.

And this is an example.

We've been talking about this a lot in this pod.

By not creating the incentive, the automakers are not incentivized to innovate in this space.

And as a result, other companies, other countries that have these incentives, cars will innovate more.

Yes, the 1970s.

It's not that.

I mean, it's like that.

I know that there's the current government as a political stance against EVs.

And I'm not exactly an EV.

I own one.

But we want our country and our companies of our country to innovate.

And we have been allowing them to with this.

And this is a sad, I think it's sad.

Jim Farley is being perhaps the most vocal in interviews.

He had an interview with The Verge earlier this week where he basically said,

it's okay that the customer level, consumer level, EV incentive is going away.

But we need that we're working really closely with the Trump administration

to find ways to continue some of the other incentives.

Because there are incentives to build matters in the US,

which Hyundai and Ford have benefited from greatly.

And they would need those incentives to continue to invest any money in EVs.

Right.

I get that there's a political bluster to this whole thing.

Like, oh, we want our gas cars back, screw EVs.

That's what the liberals drive.

But you will see where this is going in 10 or 15 or 20 years.

We all know that this is a reality of the situation.

And by not having American companies continue to innovate,

you're going to end up with America behind.

And in 20 years, you might see Chinese cars on these streets.

Like, I mean, the Koreans in 86, when Hyundai showed up,

it was a joke, the original Excel.

No one ever thought it would be competitive.

And these people work hard and they develop.

And they, and eventually these things started to come up

and take bites out of our own US auto industry.

And in some cases, they start building here, which is great.

But it's just something to consider.

Whenever you talk about, oh, screw EVs,

there's more to this than that.

You can't be purely isolationist.

Another reason that we shouldn't have legislation,

or maybe I'm saying that we should now.

Tough.

You figure it out.

There's one more story, which is a quick little hit.

Ford Mustang.

Jim Farley said in that same interview

that there are more Mustang, Mustang, this Mustang,

not Mustang Mach-E.

I totally disagree.

Not Mustang Mach-E.

He didn't say that.

I've looked at the data since then.

There's the quote.

There are more Mustang sales outside of the US

of the current generation Mustang, whatever that one's called.

What's it called?

The new Mustang.

No, there hasn't.

We call, we say new Mustang.

Right.

Until it's not new anymore.

There is a new name.

There is a name.

There are more sold outside of the US

in the US in the current generation.

You know, this is fun fact.

Here we are bringing Cologne into the.

Apparently Australia and like Sweden or Finland or something

are the largest outside of the US markets.

Can I ask you a question?

Do you think this is the only picture ever taken in Germany

that has a new Mustang and a Supra in it?

What the hell are the odds of that?

And a Mark 8.

Yeah, but that makes sense.

The Germans don't buy American or Japanese.

That's a nerve wring thing.

I think you got a pretty good shot.

Okay.

So Farley said that the Mustang is selling more outside

the US than in.

I think he includes the Maki.

He does not.

And you cannot throw a stone in Copenhagen and not hit a Maki.

You cannot walk out of your house in Oslo and not bump into a.

I'm not screwing around.

They are everywhere in those places.

It was not fully clarified, but.

He did clarify.

In that interview, but additional news stories have referred

specifically to the S650 Mustang,

which is what that one is.

The S650 and other new Mustang models.

Additional news stories from who?

Reputable or non-reputable?

Both.

So you got the Maki and then the gaspan Mustang.

Yeah, we're selling more Mustangs out of the US.

Well, yeah, you're selling Maki's in Oslo,

where the purchase price of a Maki is $11.

People want the American Mustang, the nameplate.

The quote directly is we're investing a lot of Mustang.

I think the people don't get about Mustang.

That's a global car.

It's the best selling sports coupe in the world.

We outsell Mustang out of the US than inside the US.

Sports coupe, but they're like Mercedes Benz with the GLE coupe.

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All right, now back to this car pod.

All right, bring on.

We got no more news stories.

Okay, we have talk cars, and I want to talk cars.

I got a lot of talk cars today.

I got two big stories.

You want the pie?

Yeah, bring the 993.

We're going to have some reels that result from this.

All right, I have two things to say.

Ken and I want you to listen up and listen very closely.

I heard about this on the podcast last week.

Because I listened.

Oh, wow, did you listen to the part where I said you wouldn't listen?

Yes, I did.

But it's beautiful to see it in person.

Okay, we got this 993 turbo.

I'm going to cover that in a second.

First, I want to say something.

The Kuntash is back from service.

There it is.

It's sitting behind me.

And it's got an oil change and some fluid flushes,

and there was a nail in a tire.

Oh, really?

And so, this is minor stuff, two grams is what it cost.

That car, two things.

That car is driving beautifully right now.

Bobblef did the service here in San Diego.

They're up in Miramar or something.

Maybe Kearney Mesa, no one knows.

And it's Miramar.

They got, we'll walk in there.

They got 10 Muras.

It's incredible.

Bobblef did the service.

Two grand.

The car has never run better.

It runs beautifully.

Is that what having an oil change does?

Right, exactly.

Here's the thing for all you Kuntash.

I'm going to say two things for all you Kuntash.

This is the bomb I'm going to drop today for all you Kuntash people.

Number, all the haters.

All the Kuntash are so unreliable.

The time between the last service I did and this service

is the longest I have ever gone with any of my cars ever in my life

between services, 655 days.

How many miles?

That's a long time.

2,000 miles.

Wow, that's legitimately a lot for a Kuntash.

Two years.

I mean, maybe.

Two full years.

A lot of them, you know, a lot of them are serviced,

sit around for a decade, and then are serviced again.

Some people, it's actually, it's even longer.

Well, I've been driving mine and I drive it at least once a week.

And that brings me to the big bombshell I'm going to drop today.

That's when I'm prepared to make my favorite car that I own is my Kuntash.

There it is.

That's not true.

It is.

Your best car.

You think the Carrera GT is the best and Kuntash is your favorite?

My favorite car that I own is my Kuntash.

How long can we hold you to that statement?

It has evolved over time and is now, I am now for sure on it.

Wow.

I love the Carrera GT dearly.

I'm not, this is not me announcing I will sell it,

although I do, it will someday, I promise.

But the Kuntash is my favorite car that I own.

I just love the car.

I love how it looks.

I love how it drives.

I love using it.

I love everything about it.

I have it up in my left and when it comes down, I'm like,

oh, man, this is going to be a good day.

Well, I can't believe we're finally aligned.

That's always been my favorite car of yours.

And it is so cool.

It is just the best car and all this crap.

I think one of the things that depresses Kuntash values,

which is wonderful, by the way, because I love the fact.

Yeah, yeah, cheap car.

It should be more.

But I think one of the things that depresses the values

is that there is this reputation for unreliability

and the fact that the car drives poorly.

My experience has been the exact opposite.

You know, the first year I had it,

I was like worried every time I took it anywhere.

And I was like, what is that noise?

What is it?

You know, and now I'm into year two,

and I'm actually into year three already.

Never been any problems.

And there could be.

But like the fact that I've already made it two and a half

years, like we're doing pretty well.

And it's just so fun to use.

It's so, I drive every car in the world, every car, right?

With the press cars and the cars in the office.

And this is just the most fun car.

I think it hinges on a couple of things.

It's fun to use because yours has been so reliable.

Thanks to George Evans, who did the major service on it.

And you've had the reliability mods done to the engine.

So it has been reliable.

And in fairness, every time I've started it for the summer,

it starts so easily every time.

It is a champ.

I would trust that car.

To drive it some distance, actually.

But you know, obviously had it been one that needed service,

this experience would be dramatically different.

Except that because of who I am, I would have paid.

You know, I would have paid up.

If George had told me that it needed Evans in Ohio,

greatest Lamborghini mechanic in the world,

unless I'm standing in front of Bobble.

After the two of them, though, I'm so happy.

I'm so thrilled I have the best oil changer.

He did a good job, though.

And they did it quick.

And they were very committed.

Wonderful.

Obviously, I love Evans dearly.

He did $50,000 in service in the car when I first bought it.

If he had told me it was $150,000, I would have done it.

And you know what?

I bet you it would be driving just as well.

Like, I just think that this car is extra special in my mind

because of its...

When I first bought it, I was very uncertain about its upgrades.

It has forged pistons.

It has a bored motor.

But, Bill, yeah, I got a built motor in my Countache.

But because of those things,

I truly believe the car drives better.

I wouldn't, I would not be surprised if that's the case.

So my question then is this, is it the Countache specifically,

or, I mean, this is your first older car?

Like, with the carburetor?

I will say, because of this car,

I have started to consider older cars.

I've never been an old car guy.

Same.

And I've been surprised.

I've loved this car so much.

I'm not not looking at Daytonas.

I'm not not looking at Othinos.

I don't have a huge interest in those cars,

but my interest is 10x where it used to be.

It really is.

That's so interesting.

I suspected it would be if this car had any...

Not even being reliable.

I gotta tell you, I bought this car.

I was on the entire, I was in the summer.

I was not around it.

I didn't see it.

It was in Canada.

And I had it shipped here.

I didn't see the car for the first month that it was here.

There was some work done to it.

And I showed up.

You were there.

And I showed up to pick it up from Elite Finish,

the shop where I sent it.

Shout out, Kevin.

I showed up and I drove it home and I thought to myself,

this was a mistake.

I shouldn't have done this.

I'm gonna regret this and I'm gonna sell this car in a year.

And because it's so different from a modern car

and it's so different from anything I'd used to,

but I've gotten used to it and I love it.

I have fallen deeply in love and it is my favorite car.

Do you still...

It was the last time you used 2nd gear.

I don't use 2nd.

It's occasionally.

The Syngro in 2nd is notorious.

It's fine now because it's brand new

because Evan's put a new one in.

But he said to me, he said,

Doug, he said,

when you...

2nd gear, only use it when it's warmed up.

That's what he said when I took out the car.

But the problem is there's no trans temp dial.

So I had no idea when it's warmed up.

So I just decided, you know what?

It's never warmed up.

Never gonna use it.

Oh, well, that's not right.

My goodness.

You should use it.

It's like...

I use it when the car gets really warm.

Like if I've been driving for 20, 30 minutes,

it's obviously warm.

I use it then.

It's not that long.

Usually after about five minutes or so, it's...

I don't want to take a risk.

He said the Syncros are pretty weak.

And so, like he said,

I mean, it's not like every year you got to replace it,

but like 10, 15 years, it's gonna need it.

You can tell because it will not want to go in a second.

But after a while, if it feels good going from third to fourth,

you can start to use second.

Oh, you think that's the...

Yeah.

I mean, in my experience with older cars,

it's like the Italian ones in particular,

on all of them, like that 308 that's sitting behind you,

like it doesn't like second gear.

So you go from first to third.

Yeah, I do that with my...

I do that with Kroger T.

You do it for just a little bit.

I mean, that car, there's so much oil,

both in the sump for the engine

and then also for the transmission,

it does take longer to warm up.

But usually, like if you're going on a longer drive,

like if you're driving it to cars and coffee,

it would be warm like you could use it

then by the time you got there.

Yeah, which is about 15 minutes.

By the time I get off the freeway, Rancho Santa Fe,

and I'm on that curry road, I do use second.

That's...

Then you're doing it right.

That's exactly right.

The...

Makes me want other Lambos, I will say.

Like I...

Really, like a...

Well, like a...

Older?

Or newer.

Mercy stick and Diablo.

The three.

I don't want them.

I don't want to be a Lambo guy.

I never saw myself as a Lambo guy.

Who wants to be a Lambo guy?

I know it more.

But they're just...

It's just so...

It's such an amazing car.

It is.

You're driving it around,

you're having an unbelievable experience.

You're giving this incredible experience

to people around you who are so excited.

This is like a life...

Like you talk to adults and they say,

I still remember where I was as a kid

when I saw a Countache on the street.

Yeah.

You know.

And like this is...

This is so cool.

It's just cool to be part of it.

I love it.

My favorite car that I own.

Well, I'm excited that it has opened the back catalog

of some of these great iconic vintage cars to you.

Maybe.

And it is a very special car.

On that subject,

do you want us to talk about the 993 Turbo situation?

Yes, sure.

Last week on the pod,

I announced very strenuously

that I was ready to buy another car.

It's been over two years since I...

Wow.

Yeah.

It's been over two years since I bought a car.

I bought my Sequoia like 20 months ago,

but I don't really count it daily.

It's been over two years since I bought a fun car,

which was the Countache at the end of 23.

I bought it in the summer of 23.

And I have, for years since then,

sworn to be off cars.

I'm off cars.

I don't want to get one.

Last week on the pod,

I very strenuously said I was ready.

I'm ready to get back on cars

and get a 993 Turbo.

And I found one.

And I found a nice one.

And then I don't want to make it

to get into the particulars yet.

This is still ongoing,

but not very ongoing.

But I found one.

And I've discovered...

I do a lot of due diligence when I buy a car.

And I discovered that the odometer had been rolled back.

And odometer issues is a problem on 993s in general.

They all fail.

And the question is,

can you catch it right away,

get it fixed, and just keep it climbing?

Or do you roll it back?

This particular car had been rolled back.

Yeah.

And I'm not actually opposed to buying a rollback.

But it changes the value.

And I haven't caught up with the seller of the vehicle yet,

but I have a suspicion we're not going to be in agreement.

Meanwhile, this is a story I haven't told yet on the pod.

Wow, this is a story.

However, six months ago,

I came to an agreement with a seller, dealer,

about on an F40.

We agree on a price.

You know this whole story.

You know what I mean?

It's like you don't know.

We agreed on a price.

Turned me for good radio.

And I was ready to do it.

And a couple of days later,

the dealer backed out of the price they had agreed on.

Yeah.

And both of...

And I'm not going to say anything more about either situation.

But I will say this.

Both of these situations remind me that buying a vehicle is hard

unless you use cars and bits.

Yes.

Well done.

But it's annoying.

It's true.

It is true.

That 993 Turbo is an interesting case.

Because if it had been on our site,

you would have posted all these pictures,

all these service records,

which is how I discovered it.

Because there were service records that had mileage

in excess of the current odometer.

And I know, I should have bought that car.

It was tuned.

It had 996 wheels.

I know, but we could have had so much fun.

With some money.

With some cold ones putting it back to stock.

That's so true.

With some money, this car could have gone back to stock.

Well, more or less.

More or less.

I just...

It's just annoying to buy a car at the level I want to buy a car at.

Like I will pay up.

I will buy a car.

But I really do a lot of diligence, if I can.

And Carfax and look carefully at the service records.

Like I opened up an Excel document

and wrote down all the records and what they did.

The years and when and where.

And I'm looking at plate numbers to determine when the car was sold

to this owner and all that.

And really, honestly, on our site,

really great sellers will go to the trouble of doing this for you.

Like they'll have laws.

And if they don't, the comments will suss it out.

And that's what would have happened on our site

if the car had gone up.

And same with that F40, it would have been bid to the value.

Which was the value I agreed to with the dealer.

And that would have been that.

You as a buyer for cars of this caliber

are not trying to get a deal.

Yeah, I'm not trying to get a deal.

I want to pay retail.

You want to play market at the correct price.

I don't even care.

I'll pay over.

Because when I get in my head, I want a car.

I get it.

I want a car.

You also want to know about the car.

You want to know what you're getting into.

That's the thing that annoyed me about the rollback.

It has become clear to me that the seller is the one

who rolled the odometer back to the previous Carfax.

Well, that's good.

He rolled it back to the previous Carfax number

but didn't take into account service records

that show how to progress.

That had better for the Carfax.

And it's like, dude, if you had just,

you don't understand like, and some buyers aren't like this

and would have much rather had the lower mile car

with the rollback and not known.

But it's like, dude, if you had just not rolled it back,

everything would have been better.

You know, like, yeah, the car would have a higher mileage,

but then I wouldn't have a TMU issue.

True mileage unknown.

And I'm still interested.

I'm still a buyer.

But now you got a car with who knows how many miles,

a TMU car, it's less valuable than it would have been

if you hadn't tried to fake it.

And it's just so frustrating.

Both to deal with risk.

You understand why some of these sellers don't sell on cars.

And I mean this sincerely,

and this is not intended to be an ad for cars and bids.

You can say about bringing trailers as well.

I'll cop to it.

You understand why some of these sellers

don't want to sell on the auction platforms

because the commenters are sophisticated enough

that they will point this crap out.

And I don't like, I don't like buying cars

that are really available.

I don't like people just like looking back at my buy.

I like to buy like a privately offered car.

But the auction sites have some real benefits.

They really do.

And also you have a seller that is serious.

The Dada 40 seller, clearly not serious

with wasting everybody's time.

Wasting everyone's time including his own.

I lost three hours to that guy.

And I lost three hours to the 993 guy.

Your time valuable.

Which is, yeah, that's more upsetting than anything else.

I'm not losing three more hours, okay?

Well, no car for you.

Listen, I'm going to make the plea again.

I want on our 993 turbo.

I want an arena 993 turbo.

Like this, U.S. car, if you have one.

No rollbacks.

I don't even care if it has a rollback, just disclose.

If it has a rollback disclose, so we can come to the right number.

I want a U.S. car 993 turbo.

I'm ready to buy mid-miles.

Mid-miles.

It just, yeah, we just keep focusing.

Here, here, can I transition us?

Yeah, if you have a 993 turbo.

Dude, if you do come to Ken and I at next weekend,

at Rotolana, where we'll be at IMSA's Petit Le Mans race

with a paddock cars and coffee, thank you.

Folks, this is the most exciting event of the year.

I am so sad I'm not going to be there.

If by some ungodly reason, IMSA allows us to continue this partnership next year,

I will come to this event.

I hope so.

Then we can go walking in Atlanta after.

Atlanta is my favorite place.

Not close to Atlanta.

No, but it's close enough.

Atlanta is my favorite place.

Filippo and Kennan are going to be at Rotolana,

which is in Brazzleton, home of Panaz.

Really?

Yeah, I didn't know that.

Yeah.

Somebody's coming with a Panaz, that makes sense now.

There you go.

Yeah.

Didn't have to drive.

We're going to have a car corral, a cars and coffee,

the entirety of the 10 hour race in the paddock.

So you'll be set up if you are bringing your car,

because you've posted in community, we've invited you.

You will be set up there next to all the race teams.

If you're just coming to the race, come say hi to us,

come hang out in the space.

We will have coffee, we'll have Kennan.

We'll have Filippo.

Kennan and coffee.

This is a great event.

This is going to be so much fun.

You can go and see Kennan in person.

You can ask him about Emily, his girlfriend, in person.

And her CRT, which will not be it.

Her CRT, she's got a CRT screen.

Yeah, three CRT.

I will also say, in general, into a race,

it's very fun to attend.

Can I ask you a question?

They're really fun.

Two questions.

Yes.

This is a 12 hour race, right?

10 hour race.

Are you going to 30 p.m. until 10 p.m.?

Am I going to be the entirety of the race?

Yeah.

Or 10, 10.

You are?

Of course.

12 p.m.

No way.

Really?

Yes.

Wow.

That is crazy.

What do you mean, really?

Second.

I'll be there for longer than 10 hours.

This is me just hoping.

Will you wear your giraffe shirt?

We'll think about it.

Will you please?

I'll think about it.

You can wear other cars and bids merch.

Like, you can put a sticker on your shirt or something.

I'll think about it.

Oh, okay.

He'll wear cars and bids merch.

Anyway, the point is, you should attend this event,

Road Atlanta, IMSA, Petit Le Mans,

the ultimate event on the IMSA calendar, as I recall.

And the cars and bids one for now.

That's our second IMSA event.

Yeah.

I'm really excited about this.

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Okay.

Final talk car segment is from Filippo.

Filippo's going to talk to us about a car

he's not going to purchase.

Go ahead.

Okay.

I'm interested in buying a car again.

I'm back on buying cars-ish.

And I've been thinking a lot about boxers, right?

Because the boxers are a good car.

Ken and I filmed a video a while ago

on a Boxer Spider, a 91 Boxer Spider versus a 91 Base.

And we kind of decided the 91 Base wasn't quite as powerful

as we wanted, but a great platform,

and a great chassis, and a great car.

Love the platform.

So I started considering the 91 Boxer SS GTSs.

But I also realized that 718 Boxers are the same price

or cheaper than a 981.

And it's a good motor.

People say it's not a VET6, but it's still a VET6.

That's the question, right?

Is it as bad?

They're much cheaper for a convertible car.

Are they undervalued?

Or is the fact that it's not a VET6

that it's that turbo flat 4 legitimately a detractor?

I think that you won't notice.

Well, I do notice things about cars.

Turns out.

But I also think that no matter what you say,

you will end up with a cheap hatchback.

This is your MO.

Think about this.

When you bought your E-Class wagon,

we were hearing all these stories,

you ended up with a cheap hatchback.

When I bought my E-Class wagon, I bought an E-Class wagon.

When you bought...

Yeah, but you were hearing all these stories

about what you wanted.

An E-Class wagon is what I wanted, is what I bought.

When you bought your 500-day bar,

you were looking at this, looking at that.

I bought a convertible.

You ended up with a cheap hatchback.

Now.

There's no hatch.

Yeah, but it's a hatch.

Now, then last time, C7997, and he ended up with...

A cheap hatchback.

A cheap hatch.

Should I buy a Cayman?

I bought a GTI.

A 718 Cayman is a cheap hatchback for the 981 Cayman.

I will tell you this.

If you're even barking up this tree,

you're going to end up with a tip 987,

and then you're going to be like,

this was a disappointment.

Well, a .2 is rare.

That too would be good, actually.

Yeah.

No, here's the thing.

Go back to that.

I legitimately...

Caymans are a good example.

A 981 Cayman...

No, go back.

Two pages.

718.

Yes, go back.

Okay, this 718 Cayman is a base Cayman.

50 grand.

A 981 base Cayman with that miles is also 50 grand.

You will never spend 50 grand on a car.

Yeah, this is laughable.

It's hilarious.

It's laughable.

I am considering it,

but should I consider a 718 or should I not?

I'm going to speak to the general public,

as opposed to Felico,

who I do not think will ever buy a car of this nature.

I think the 718 Boxster has gotten an unfairly bad rap

because of the turbo four-cylinder.

I think that it's like the Ferrari.

The 458, the F8 comes with its turbo engine,

and people are like,

oh, it's not as good.

Well, folks, you're lucky it's not electric.

Like, you know?

Like, actually, you're in a pretty good shape here.

And I think that this is a similar situation.

This car still drives really well.

It is an excellent car to drive.

It's just not, yeah, it's not a flat six,

but from a driving experience,

I don't really notice it all that much.

I think the turbo engine is great.

I think they did a great job engineering it.

Of course, I would rather have a GTS4 or a GT4,

but everyone would rather have the nicer version, you know?

I'd rather have a Pagani Zonda than a Honda Accord.

Right, that is the nicer version.

Or just the Zonda.

Strictly stair stepped up.

The F roadster.

I just think these cars don't,

I think for a general person,

there's like this talk when you go to a car event,

oh, the 718's a four cylinder, it's not as good.

I think that's said by people who haven't driven them.

It's just, it is good.

This is legitimately addressing it here,

because it's more power than a 981.

The chassis by all accounts is phenomenal.

All phenomenal.

They're cheaper than a 981.

They've depreciated a lot.

The question is, will they depreciate?

You kind of know what to expect from Porsche depreciation.

The 718 seemed to be appreciating much more

substantial than that.

Will that continue or will it taper?

Well, some would argue then,

if the 981 is depreciating less,

it's going to hold its value more than you should buy the 981.

Unless you think that the 718 is at the bottom

of its appreciation curve.

Well, there's another component here,

which is what do they do next?

Yeah.

Because I think 718 depreciation curve stops

if they do go full electric.

But they aren't.

Well, maybe.

See, they said they were going to go full electric

on some versions.

Yeah, that's true.

So if the Boxster becomes full electric next time,

except for the GT4 and the Boxster Spider and the top versions,

that probably will have a beneficial effect on the 718.

And even more so on the 981.

You get my point.

Because this will be then the last gas-powered one, right?

Even if they do a GT4 RS next,

or a Spider RS next with a gas engine,

like the base cars will, this will have been the end of the line.

It's just hard to buy a sports car with four cylinders

that didn't have it originally.

Like the lowest of the line was a four cylinder,

had a four cylinder.

The, like there are a number, like the Miata.

Eco was pulled off with power.

To be fair, these are not.

These have power.

It's 350 horses, right?

Real power.

Yeah, but then it sounds like a four cylinder.

The sound is a part of it.

I'm going to just say something here.

The little flat six.

Not exactly.

A Carrera GT, you know what I mean?

Well, I didn't say it was a Carrera GT,

but it sounds better than a pedestrian four cylinder.

A 2.7 liter flat thing.

When we drove that base, like I thought,

the sound wasn't one of my complaints.

I thought it sounded fine.

It needed an exhaust, but like, it sounded like a Porsche.

But I don't necessarily think.

This sounds like a Subaru.

Yeah, but like.

Yeah, but it does.

Neither car I'm buying for the sound.

If I want a sound, I get a GT350 walk away.

Well, that's part of the sports car experience is the sound.

That's what you want to get.

I don't.

Anybody look at one of these cars by GT350,

but if you don't want a GT350, which you should,

the 718s are becoming really good deals.

So Felipe, what color will your golf R be?

Okay, there's one interesting thing about these,

which is we sell, we auctioned so few regular 718s.

Boxing spiders as frequently as regular ones.

And that's true across like the enthusiast sites.

Enthusiasts definitely buy it.

I hate to say this.

I think that's it.

I hate to say this because I don't want to make anybody feel bad out there.

In this case, sometimes I'm willing to feel bad,

but in this case, because I don't believe it to be true

and it shouldn't be true,

but this turned out not to be a car that was bought by enthusiasts.

It turned out to be a car that was bought by someone who wanted a Porsche,

who wanted to spec out a car,

who was maybe getting older, wouldn't have the chance again.

It was not a car that ended up.

Mostly in enthusiasts' hands.

I think that is unfair.

It's like the California.

I think it is unfair.

I think it is a very good enthusiast car.

However, yes, it has ended up.

What you see on these sites is generally enthusiasts selling to enthusiasts,

and this car has not made its way.

I'll still consider it.

I'll think about it.

It is a great car, and it is becoming a bargain,

and that leads us to our market report,

which is brought to you by the 993 Turbo.

Especially if you have one for Don.

I want one.

Find me.

Send me a 993 Turbo.

Reena Redd, the market report.

The U.S.

We want to talk about, yeah, U.S., I don't want any Euro crap.

If the VIN has a Z in it, I don't want anything to do with that.

That's such a deep cut foot.

Okay, the market report.

We're talking about these getting cheap.

Let's talk California.

Yes, so we recently sold a Ferrari California,

but no reserve on cars and bids.

It was this one, and it sold for $65,000.

Star wheels, with the base, the early Star Wheels.

Yes, now, this car did have some issues admittedly.

What were they?

Go down.

It was, what was it?

The United States, there's a check engine light

for the catalytic converter.

There is a...

Manual tires, CEL.

The front suspension is leaking.

There's wear on the infotainment screen.

That's not the best scratches on wheels.

Cried, it's no problem.

Oh, I mean, so...

The driver seat doesn't function.

It needs some work.

It's not.

How many miles?

And it did have miles, 45,000 for a Ferrari that's...

But my point is that...

65.

The floor now has gotten to $65,000 for a dual clutch V8 powered,

relatively modern, Ferrari.

Say what you will, these cars drive great.

They do.

It's the 718 thing again.

These cars drive amazingly.

Right, and I understand there's some questions

about the way the rear end in particular looks

and stuff like that, but they do drive well.

Ugly cars get a lot cheaper as they depreciate,

or ugly cars get a lot prettier as they depreciate.

They do, yeah.

Like this car, this car was ugly at 175 in 08.

At 65, I'm looking past a lot of its flaws.

Yep, yes, I agree with that.

But I just, I could not believe like this...

65.

The 360 was a bargain.

Like we always like, that's what I think it was like a bargain.

This car is the Mondial of the modern world.

The difference being it drives really well.

And actually, Mondial's drive pretty well too.

Yes, but this is generally a good car.

Legitimately a good car.

Hey, can I stand on that foot every second?

Well, too late.

Right, I just want to move it off this.

I would, I will give you $5 right now

if you can name that red car.

I'll give you $5 right now if you can tell me how much.

Horse power.

480.

469.

480.

How many gears does it have?

It has seven.

And you know what?

That's a Buick Encore.

GX.

Yeah, yeah.

All right, I wasn't that far off.

You're close.

But anyway, I think that it is such a bargain and...

65, honestly, those flaws too.

You buy the car, you put it on Turro, you fix none of them.

Do you make $300?

We rent it to go do cars.

There you go.

But the next time you sit in the back of it, I'm not there.

No, no human, no adult can sit in the back of that car.

That Turro does look nice.

You know, I got to tell you, for 45,000 miles,

that interior is held up well.

Because one of my complaints about Ferrari

is that they're not meant to be used all that much.

It's like art.

And so the cars just wear so much faster

than like Porsches and other cars.

I don't know.

That looks pretty good.

That looks pretty nice.

Well, I mean, it looks good.

That said, all the buttons, I'm sure are sticky

and stuff doesn't function as it's designed.

Chrysler infotainment.

Occasionally the seat just starts,

the passenger seat just starts moving all that time.

Ferraris, that's just how they are.

That's so specific.

There's a ghost.

That's the Ferrari way.

I'm telling you, this is for 65.

That's a pretty good car.

Imagine you're sitting behind that steering wheel for 65.

And it sounds like a Ferrari and it goes like a Ferrari.

Yeah.

It ain't slow.

It's got a V8.

It's not like it's some plug-in hybrid four-cylinder C63 crap.

It's still an AVA.

Yeah, it's not like a four-cylinder 718.

Speaking of cars that cost over 65, pull up the M5.

All right, pull up the A6.

This past week, we auctioned a very low-mile E60 M5.

It's 3,300 miles, but it was the SMG.

Yeah, and an early one.

And it fails me to reserve at 74.

I will say, this is by far the highest public bid to amount

or result that I found for automatic E60s.

Folks, this is rare.

We talk about Filippo's bringing up a car that didn't sell.

We like to pretend during the market report

that we sell all the cars.

Well, reserve not met.

We don't know what that means.

But Filippo brought this up.

I sure did.

This is very impressive.

It's a strong, legitimately, it is the highest public result

for an E60.

Yeah.

Didn't sell.

We sometimes, especially when a car just has no comps,

we just want to see what the market says.

And also, who knows?

How do we know?

Who knows?

Nobody knows.

Sometimes these cars sell for a Green Cayenne,

sell for 125.

That feels like a lot of money for an SMG60 M5.

Well, and again, an O6.

It's a pre-LCI car too, so it's just as desirable.

But it is white, which is a rare car.

Very rare.

I don't know if I want to cut it loose if I were the seller.

I don't.

I know what they were looking for.

I'm not going to announce.

The prior record, by the way, was 60K for like a 10,000-mile car

a year ago.

Yeah.

I mean, it's hard to know.

How do you value it?

Do you think it goes up?

Maybe.

Steaks will.

If it was a 30,000-mile stick, this would be twice the amount.

Given that this was bid to 74 and the California sold for 65,

which would you rather have?

Zero-mile E60 M5 or California?

An E60 M5 that needs road bearings tomorrow anyway,

and a manual swap.

Or a California that needs everything.

I'd get the Cali in two seconds.

What am I going to do with a car with 3,000 miles?

I can't drive it.

You hope it appreciates, but will it?

Like, is there a desire?

It's special, obviously, because it's the only V10 M5.

Yeah.

But it's a tip.

An F10 M5 with 3300 miles or an F90 M5 with 3300 miles

that's priced regardless.

But it's just not.

The SMG is bad.

It's weird to have the very best example of the least,

the lesser-desirable version.

It's like the one-mile EcoBoost or something.

Like, what do you do?

What do you do with that?

I don't know.

But I'll tell you, it was cool to see this car come up.

It was cool to look at the interior photos.

You do not see them in this shape anymore.

There will be a marker for this, and I'll tell you why.

This 308 GTSI, this was the nicest version

of the least desirable version of the 308.

Two-valve fuel injector car really early,

and it brought real money because it had 1900 miles.

Yeah.

Yeah, but that's a Ferrari that has a specific look.

Ferrari's a thing, and trans is a big factor.

I think at some point, I can see this becoming something

someone wants for a collection of the lowest mileage.

But what did they want?

You look for a stick.

You'd look for a stick.

Although they're all driven.

That's the point of the stick, because that's what most of you want.

And that's also the point of the GTSI.

But that's a G-pocket.

Well, to be honest, you're too afraid it's going to break.

This was a very interesting auction.

I was surprised it got as high as it did.

Surprised Seller didn't cut it loose,

but at the same time, not that surprised.

Seller made it more than we do.

This car is very special.

They may hope for more than we know with.

E-65s are still cool, man.

I look at this picture of this one,

and I'm like, this car still looks damn cool.

Just aging so much.

Those wheels, this car looks damn cool.

It would be the best M5, no question,

if it had any shot at reliability, it does not.

Also, if the engine were a little less peaky.

Yeah, one more torque, a little less.

Through sacrilege, but I really, really, 83 pound-feet.

I really wish that the M3 with the V8 and the M5 with the V10,

that the powertrains were just designed a little different.

But that's also how M engines always have been,

like with the exception of like.

Then why do a V10?

Give us a turbo.

That's a question we all have.

You know why?

Because Formula One, and they could.

Give us a 4-cylinder like AMG.

Luckily, they haven't done that.

That's what we want.

Okay, I want to talk about, we want to talk about two more cars.

Yeah, we do.

I want to talk about the Grand Cherokee.

Please pull up the Grand Cherokee.

Oh, absolutely.

The best car we have on the site right now,

and that's saying a lot,

because there's some good stuff on the site.

We got this right now.

This is folks, this is just a Grand Cherokee.

Look at it, it's a 13 Grand Cherokee Laredo X.

Okay, it's boring.

I didn't know there was a trim.

It was, boring Grand Cherokee.

But then.

By the way, that's a good gen,

Jad, Grand Cherokee.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The best gen.

But then.

You open the hood.

And under the hood, there is a 6.4-liter

Hemi Swap with a blower.

Not just a Hemi Swap, but a blower.

What's the, they dinoted it.

It's got some crazy wheel numbers.

It's like 600, 526 wheel.

Folks, this is a 600 horsepower car.

Now, you're thinking yourself,

well, Jeep made the track hawk and the, no, no.

This is cool because it doesn't look.

Yep.

They did the wheels because I presume they did brakes.

So those wheels are from an SRT Grand Cherokee.

But otherwise, this is just,

it just looks like a regular old Grand Cherokee.

This is a dude in New Jersey.

And he kept it totally,

he resisted all the temptation you have

when you do a motor swap

to also black out the tails and lower it

and put on a heinous body kit.

This is the coolest car on the site right now.

I am obsessed with this thing.

Can I give you a Jeep fun fact?

Yeah.

Do you know the fastest zero to 60 Jeep of all time is?

This.

That came from the factory?

Maybe this, maybe not.

Track hawk.

No, the wagon here S.

The wagon here S is faster than the track hawk.

Look at that.

Go back to the headlight.

Look at that cloudy headlight.

This is amazing.

I know.

This is incredible.

This just looks like a Jeep

that you would see driving around as an Uber.

Yep.

Two hundred four thousand mile odometer reading.

The engine blew up when you put in a different one.

Sure.

That's what happened.

Sure, but that's cool.

But that's cool.

That's so cool.

I agree.

And it's so cool that he kept it stuck.

Like this is I'm dead serious.

Like you drive around New Jersey,

you just see this thing and you're like,

Oh, someone put SRT wheels on a regular.

Then you line up.

I can't remember.

What was that other V8 swap truck that we had that

looked stock from the outside but had a V8 in it?

There have been a few good swaps.

But that's the thing.

If you do this and it looks stock, it's so good.

I love a swap like this.

It's so good.

It looks so good.

It takes so much more restraint not to do the dumb other stuff.

And yet it ends up so much better.

It's so cool.

Totally.

I totally think so.

Wheel.

That's, that's real.

This is a 640 horsepower car.

That would blow Felicia on the next two.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, this thing is so sweet.

This way.

Next to you, sir.

If you're legit, this is what you call it.

If I were legit and I live in New Jersey, I would.

What do you mean you got to live in New Jersey?

Yeah.

I have a great idea.

You know, it does surprise me.

You could live in Pennsylvania, but like,

It does surprise me.

This was done in New, Pennsylvania's emissions.

It does surprise me this was done in New Jersey because

it's like, they're like tight with that stuff.

Like it was the other one you're thinking about was that XTERRA.

That XTERRA that had the Titan V8 swap.

Oh, that was cool.

It was an amazing vehicle.

That one.

The green one.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, look at that.

Again, lifted it, like made it cool off-roady,

but didn't mess with it otherwise.

Didn't do dumb stuff.

Looked pretty stock with that under the hood.

Under the hood, it had a Titan V8,

which just looks like a regular motor.

Like that's so killer.

Anyway, love the Grand Cherokee.

Want the Grand Cherokee.

Yep.

Someone out there buy it and enjoy it.

Yep.

Is it no reserve?

It is.

Go bid.

You could bid.

Okay.

We want to talk M Roadster,

then we got to move on to questions, questions, questions.

Yes.

So I think about this a lot more when you, you know,

if you're a Porsche guy.

Porsche.

Porsche people love-

I've had more Nissan's than Porsches.

Do you know that?

Is that so?

Yeah.

I had a Skyline, a Cube, and a-

Oh, the Cube.

The Cube was a technicality.

What do you mean?

Didn't your brother just give it to you for like a long weekend?

Yeah, but I owned it for like two years.

That car, here's the story about my Cube.

That car, I personalized my Georgia license plate

to say 001AAA, and so it looked like the first license plate.

And a man came up to me and said,

you got the first one.

And I said, yep, got lucky.

And I just walked away.

Well, that was, that was you throwing it down for one nerd to another.

All right, let's talk about M Roadster.

If you're a newer fan of Doug,

go search Nissan Cube, Doug.

Is there a video?

There's a gray review.

We did a video right before I sold it, right?

You did a video long time ago.

Does it have the 001A?

No, I don't think it does.

Okay, M Roadster.

Anyway, so Porsche people love color.

Color.

The unique colors bring a dramatic difference.

We saw this with that Cayenne that happened recently.

BMW people on other marks, less so.

So this BMW M Roadster, this BMW, if you let me speak, uninterrupted for once,

this BMW M Roadster, this is Evergreen over Evergreen,

which if this were on a 964, would it be $200,000?

That's a 964 that Singer wouldn't hack apart.

Right.

Meanwhile, this car sold for $17,266, which is nothing great.

Now, it had miles, 114,000 miles,

but it's a really seemingly special color.

But I've seen a number of them that are this color,

and they don't really sell for a premium.

This is, I want to be clear, this is a very ugly color,

and the interior is even.

Very.

All the interior, I mean, it's awful.

The interior is horrible.

However, if I were buying one of these,

this is the only color I would consider.

It's so cool.

Okay, let's throw it out there.

So here's why, I know which one you're pulling up.

You're pulling up that, that Nephrite green.

Yes, I can find it.

Oh, it's hard.

It's way back there.

Yeah, I don't.

We sold it for a lot of money though, so you'll find it that way.

Yeah, I'll find it.

Okay, there it is.

There it is.

So here's-

Very similar color, to be clear.

Here's why I think your take is wrong.

We sold last week a different Z3M with a touch lower miles,

like 100-ish, 1,000 miles.

That was a regular color a week prior, and that's all for $12,500.

So this car sold for 50% more.

Yeah.

And that boxer with this one, it's still not bringing money.

But 50% more is the same margin as any other.

That boxer sold for 30%, 40% more than another 50% more boxer.

Yeah, but Ken's point-

A 997 in a special color.

50% more is probably about the right margin.

Yeah, but Ken, it's still 17 grand.

It's still 17 grand.

It's not like-

What do you think it's worth?

I don't know.

I think it's cool.

Of course it's cool.

That's why it's 50% more than a regular color.

I guess.

I mean, you're right if you're looking at it on a percentage basis.

Well, that's how you should be looking at it.

You're buying a Z3 app.

You're spending $4,000.

You're buying a Z3 app.

I guess.

You're not buying that car.

It is interesting to me though that people don't sit here and say,

that car is like a-

I mean, you're never going to find another one.

No.

There was that really awful green, too, that they did that was even worse.

There was a worse green.

I agree.

It was like urban green or something.

That was on the Z4.

I actually like that color.

Anyway.

I know exactly what you're talking about.

It's worse.

It's like a Robin's egg, but it's green.

It's odd.

I agree.

I just think it is interesting.

To me, it just doesn't feel-

I mean, the car doesn't feel valued in general,

which I think it's kind of a shame because they are actually very fun.

Yes, but why would you-

People are always asking me-

How highly do you want to value a Z3 app?

People are always at higher.

Higher.

People are always asking me for tips on what cars are going to appreciate.

I don't know if it's gonna, but it should.

This car is radically undervalued.

I agree.

I just think the Z4M is as well.

I'm calling it.

The Z4M, I agree.

The coupe.

Is the coupe closed yet?

The Astoral coupe?

Yes, this one.

28.

Okay, that got some money.

It got some money, but-

28 is a bargain for this one.

When you consider an S54 with the same mileage costs-

You don't think this is a bargain?

This is a fun car.

It's a fun car, but 30 grand is a real amount of money.

This is a very special car.

It really is.

The clown shoe, it has a very unusual look.

It's incredibly cool, but is the experience worth more than that?

Not really.

Is the Z3-

Is the 250 GTO-

No, but that's not a car I consider.

Yes, if you're the pinnacle of buying Arch,

which is fundamental to what you're buying, then fine.

That's right.

This is Arch.

We'll get that rear three-quarter view.

I'll tell you this.

I don't entirely disagree with what you're saying,

but I will give you this counterpoint.

The S54 car is sell for three-

If this wasn't Astoral S54 car,

we can talk about $100,000.

They're massively overpriced.

But whether or not it's over or underpriced-

Had 130,000 miles, that's not bad.

Whether or not it's over or underpriced,

the market radically values the S54

and radically does not value the S52.

Being very evil.

And it seems wrong.

It seems like they should be tighter.

There is a 70 horsepower difference,

but other than that, you're still getting,

it's a significant amount.

25% difference.

But I think the coolest part of the car

is you have this bizarre, low production,

low model year, weird thing they'll never do again.

They probably shouldn't have done in the first place.

A hatchback coupe makes no sense.

I love it, which is why it's worth twice as much

as a Z3M roadster.

Yeah, I think both-

That doesn't feel unreasonable.

I think both the roadsters and the coupes are under value.

Okay, I'm going to be careful because we have somebody

in the office here who owns a Z3M roadster.

Low production model.

So I'll be careful.

Why is it that special?

It's fun.

It's a great car.

It's already more expensive than an NB Miata

and an NC Miata.

Oh my God.

It's more expensive than a 986 Boxer.

We love the specs.

So much more powerful because the engine's way more interesting.

It's more expensive than a 986S Boxer.

It's got more power than those.

It's substantially the same.

But it's substantially the same.

It's 240 horsepower.

Yeah.

It's not that much more.

It's in line with the 997.

It's cooler than a Boxer.

That is way cooler than a Boxer.

Coop obviously is.

But we're talking about the roadsters.

They're priced about appropriately.

We're talking about both.

In my mind, they're priced about a percent.

Well, wait.

If you're talking about the roadster,

it's not more expensive than a 96 Boxer.

A 96 Boxer S is more expensive than an NB Miata.

With the same miles.

A 100,000 mile 96 Boxer is a $10,000 car.

It just astonishes me.

It truly astonishes me that they're rare.

Unlike Boxers, which are a diamond dozen, these are rare cars.

And the coops are legit rare.

If I saw an Astoral M. Coop, I would freak out.

I would follow it.

I would take a picture.

I would send it to everybody.

I cannot think of another $28,000 car for which I'm actually.

I did recently.

I slowed down.

I was there's one on a transport.

And I slowed down to take pictures of it

because you never see them.

It was S52.

I fine.

And by the way, the S52 is the more reliable power.

One would argue that it's actually better to take an S52,

do a couple of mods to it,

get yourself up to 280 to 90 horse and call it a day.

I'm actually don't disagree with you on that.

I like the S52.

I had one car with an S52.

What did you buy this?

Me?

I had an S52 and an M3.

I mean, I've been thinking about it.

This is another car you guys talked me out of

because I brought up the idea of buying this

and everybody said you can't have another BMW.

Well, I think you should avoid another BMW.

But I'm ready for you to get a car.

Thank you for M, by the way.

I agree.

Under Valley.

Yeah, the Z4 is the great under-sport.

This body style is more special.

Yeah, but it does come with its own problem somehow.

It's you, though.

It's ugly.

You're saying that.

I think the Z3 Roadster, not a pretty car.

Oh my God.

All right, let's move on.

Well, Flipper just doesn't have anything.

This car.

Go to the side shot.

Go back to the coupe.

The coupe is special.

Go back to it.

Click on that.

Click on that side profile.

That car is so...

For a while we had a Z3, 3.0,

then obviously you reviewed it.

And I wanted that car because I think it is

incredibly special.

And I think it's a special cheap hatchback.

God.

I've walked into that one.

You do just come back.

This car is rare.

It's special.

The color is special.

I cannot believe you can buy that car for $20,000.

I truly can't.

You get that and a third gen Viper.

By the way, Kenan and I, I want to say something.

I want to say one more thing before we go into questions.

I have a new theory.

It's like my Cayman GT4 or Nucleus theory.

It's about vipers.

Kenan and I determined today,

there are only three generations of viper.

There's the first gen, the third gen, and the fifth gen.

Yes.

Agreed.

But that's what you call them.

So there are three gen...

Because no one would ever call the fifth gen Viper

the third gen Viper.

It's just mentally, it just seems wrong.

The fifth gen Viper is the fifth gen Viper.

But from now on, I will only refer to three generations of Viper.

The first gen, the third gen, and the fifth gen.

Those are the three generations of Viper.

Kenan wants a first gen but would accept a 1.2 gen.

Yeah, you can say that too if you want.

Yes, they, you know, it's funny

because I've been really looking at Viper prices recently

and they seem to be rising relatively steadily.

Like good first gen's are kind of in the 50s now.

Wow, that's a shame.

Which is so because like not that long ago,

they were in the 30s.

I begged them to get one of 35, didn't do it,

could have made 15 grand.

Okay, we got to move on to questions.

We have to move on to questions.

Questions are brought to you by the third gen Viper.

Which one?

The one.

All of it.

The third gen is the third gen.

Right.

It's only the second gen.

Well, and the fourth gen.

Questions are brought to you by the third gen Viper.

It looks like an S2000 but it goes like a Viper.

Okay.

Looks like an S2000.

Sort of.

My big thing about the third gen Viper

that really hit me when I was reviewing it

is that it's the looks are too tame for the driving experience.

The driving experience is like punch you in the face.

The looks are kind of pretty.

I don't think it's tame.

Looking.

Oh, compared to the other one, compared to the first gen.

The rear tires are literally twice the width.

I know, the rear is cool.

It's wide and all that.

But it's the first gen.

Yeah, you picked.

Yeah, okay.

You're right.

All right.

Look at it.

No, no, you're right.

I take everything back.

Take it back.

You know what, it's the painted windshield.

That's part of it.

They're not that far off.

No, very long hood proportionally.

But the difference is the Viper,

when you, the difference is the S2000 is pretty tame car.

It's very controllable.

The Viper, when you get in, you feel like you're going to die.

But it doesn't have the look of a car

that looks like it's going to kill you.

Right.

That's the problem with the third gen.

Right.

Which is actually.

I think I should kind of answer the experience.

But moving on.

Okay, questions.

Questions are brought to you by Filippo in his giraffe shirt

at Road Atlanta.

The IMSA event of Petite Le Mans.

Filippo is going to be there in his giraffe shirt.

Maybe in his giraffe shirt.

October 11th, right?

Something like that.

First question.

By the way, great questions this week.

Last week, I put out a call for questions.

I said, we don't have enough good questions.

Go to cars and bids.

Click on the community tab.

There will be a questions post.

There's so many great questions.

There's 400 or 500 comments.

I went through all of them and I found the best questions.

Okay.

So here they are.

From more of 58.

Hi, Doug.

Did your wife ever have concerns about you buying the Carrera GT

as it has a reputation of being a widowmaker?

Or did she have any concerns with a car you bought

or you're planning to buy?

Despite being a relatively tame individual,

I like cars that are trying to kill me.

My 4GT, you know, it no longer does it have this reputation,

but when the 4GT came out, it was known as a really,

really uncontrollable car.

And there was some really high-profile accidents with them.

And the Carrera GT, of course, also some well-known one.

Yeah, a couple.

And anyway, but my wife didn't know any of that.

So the idea that your wife, who was a lovely human,

would know that it had a reputation of anything is...

No, I told her very clearly.

And there was a particularly sad crash in Southern California

with the Carrera GT where a guy died who had a little kid.

And I bought my car just after I had a little kid.

And I think about that a lot when I'm driving the car.

And I am very careful when I drive for that reason.

And I think that tire technology and suspension technology

has kind of changed the driving experience of that car.

I actually find the car to be tremendously controllable.

One of the most poised and controllable cars I have ever driven.

I have never had the experience that some people say they have had

of dangerous operation conditions.

I do think that has contributed to the increase in interest

and value of the car, but I have never had that experience myself.

I have always found the car to be tremendously easy to drive

and to understand and predictable.

And I do push it hard.

We went to the racetrack and all that.

But I always try to be more careful than I probably could be

given the car's limits are pretty significant.

And I do think about that sometimes.

You're both an experienced driver and a careful driver.

Yeah, I've also driven everything.

And I've driven a lot of stuff on the racetrack.

But I think people who think that often can get themselves into trouble.

And so I try not to think that.

And I try to just kind of keep the car within its limits.

But the limits are significant.

Okay, here's a good question for you guys about me.

I am Batman writes, hey, on the very first podcast ever,

Filippo named the MK7 GTI, the deepest Filippo car.

Yeah.

What car would be the deepest?

Kenan's is obviously the 3M5.

What car would be the deepest Doug car?

That's a car go.

No, an E63 AMG wagon is.

What? I'm not practical.

How many E-Class wagons have you owned?

Three.

Right.

All of them.

More than any other human in North America's owned.

That car is both practical and practical.

And like you love the G-Wag.

You are, it would not be a car you own now, but you have them.

And it's like the right combination of practical and fast.

G-Cab is kind of there, actually.

It's very unusual and appreciated for being unusual.

Kind of practical, but also not, you know,

because like you can't really get to the receipts.

It's not fast though.

I like performance and I'm relatively athletic as a person.

You're not fast.

You don't think so.

Let's race.

Let's go.

Pull them right there.

You think you'll beat me in a race?

I didn't say, I said I would film right there.

Oh, okay.

I don't think you're.

Also, yeah.

You get to the tennis next pretty quickly, but outside that.

Okay.

AMG wagon or G, I think G-Cab is better.

But I think that the answer is C3 Stingray.

Oh, on what?

Perimeters.

Famously fast vehicle.

Cool as hell.

Big old motor.

Yeah.

And you know what?

It'll get the job done if you know what I'm saying.

You know what I'm saying?

All righty.

It's got so much work.

Yeah.

Let's C3 Stingray.

We ever sold one of those?

Yeah, a couple.

Because it made it into 81.

It was the final model year.

And now we've sold some since.

Oh, yeah.

That's me.

Wait a minute.

Go to that.

No, that's not me as much.

Yeah.

No, maybe more.

I've viewed myself more like that one.

Yes.

That one was so cool.

Yeah.

That one.

Click on that one.

Yeah.

I can't believe that's a $7,000 car.

I know.

Dude, you want to talk about undervalued stuff?

The C3 is undervalued.

Well, that one's a little rough.

The C3 is undervalued, though.

And you want to know one of the reasons

I think the C3 is undervalued?

You ask a European to name an American car.

The first thing they think of is a C3.

Like the look of it, like the radical huge motor

with no power, the sound, the pollution.

Like this car is so American.

It shouldn't be more highly valued, but it is absolutely not.

It also has wild names like Paws Attraction,

which is what everything was named at the time,

but it's weird now.

Yeah, maybe the collector edition,

with its fading thing.

This is me, dude.

Look at the interior.

Ever seen a interior on a collector edition?

Well, that looks about $1,000.

It's got silver.

It's got gold seats.

Gold silver.

Do the fade thing.

Wow, interesting.

That's me.

And look at those gauges.

I really want to drive a 4 plus 3.

From AFS CTS-V, a Doug Nash.

Yeah.

Doug, I understand the hate for the four-cylinder C63,

given the radical departure from the established formula.

But the vast majority of complaints I see

are because of the departure of the established.

This is a little nuanced question.

It's interesting.

Do you think that the V8 C-Class AMG,

if it had never existed,

would the perception of the four-cylinder C63 be different?

Yeah, but I think that has to be part of it.

I think you can't separate it.

We know what a C63 is.

I have a different answer.

I remember when you had that car, that press car,

and you were doing a review, and you came out and were like,

I was really hoping that I could say something nice,

that's different than everybody else.

But you didn't enjoy the car plainly.

But only because it drove like a Subaru,

and I think that's part of its point.

Like, what if we always knew the C63 drove like a Subaru?

But the prior C-Class AMGs,

even though they weren't the big, burly V8s,

were still well-engined.

Yeah.

It's not a phrase.

But that's the point, though.

He's saying, can you separate that?

I mean, I think part of the hate has to be because we know.

Like, it's too hard to imagine the C63 as anything else.

It's a nuanced question.

It's not a bad question.

I don't think the car is terrible on its face,

but I think when you create as an automaker this lore of a car,

it just is part of what the car is and becomes,

and you can't separate it from that.

Like, is the car great if you couldn't think about the other ones?

Yeah.

I mean, it drives OK.

Like, I like an STi.

But if you're comparing the entrance in that segment to a Subaru engine,

that's not a positive price.

But I just think it's what it is.

Like, history is what it is.

History is what it is.

The history is part of it.

Yeah.

You can't separate it.

It's a good question.

But I really think that that ends up,

it just has to be part of the car.

And so it's too hard to separate it.

Well, ultimately, Mercedes-Benz agrees.

Yeah.

Another very nuanced and interesting question from Daniel Fritsch.

Doug, I remember you saying Toyota launched the FJ

at the worst possible.

FJ Cruiser at the worst possible time.

The recession came on.

We weren't that interested in off-roaders at the time.

With the success of Toyota SUVs and their off-roading pedigree,

a relaunch of the FJ as a Bronco slash Jeep competitor

couldn't fit in the marketplace.

I think Toyota has decided, for whatever reason,

that that niche will be filled by the forerunner.

And if you look at it from a pricing perspective

and from a total sales perspective,

the forerunner is a close competitor

at the Bronco and the Wrangler.

The difference, of course, is it doesn't look like them, right?

It doesn't have like an exposed fenders,

removable doors, removable roof.

But for whatever reason,

that's the direction Toyota has gone instead.

I think the market's cool with that.

They have teased an FJ, by the way.

If you do, yeah, but isn't it like electric or a small, right?

If you do another FJ, I think you do risk stealing

some of the market that is the forerunner,

because I really think that that's what they've done.

And I think Toyota has probably smartly understood

that the forerunner actually is a better vehicle for most people.

It drives nicer than a Wrangler or a Bronco.

Most people don't ever take off the roof or the doors.

And if you remove those items, the forerunner is a pretty cool car.

The Honda Passport guys really got to you.

That's what consumers really want.

Consumers want a body-on-frame capable vehicle, okay?

The Passport's a crossover.

I do think that there is room for a smaller,

like, earlier looking Toyota, and I think Toyota will be there.

Maybe. I would love to see the FJ come back,

but I think it would really come at the expense of a forerunner.

I think you would see a lot of people who would have bought a forerunner

just simply migrate over to that car.

And I don't think that there's a lot of people who are thinking about a Toyota,

but choose a Jeep because the Wrangler can what?

Take the roof off?

Maybe there are some, but I bet it's not a huge amount of people.

We've given Toyota a pass for the Land Cruiser forerunner thing, huh?

God, one of the great bad product planning decisions in history.

We're talking about, of course, the fact that the Land Cruiser is forerunner right now.

That they stole the 300-series Land Cruiser from me will go down.

They're worse than the guy who rolled back the 993 odometer.

Marginally.

Here's another good question from TwoTrain.

It actually doesn't say, Doug, you guys can answer too.

Do you lose all respect for an alleged car enthusiast

when he purchases a vehicle and automatic

when the same car is produced from the factory with a manual?

Like buying a GT4 PDK versus a stick?

Personally, no. I think there's a lot of good reasons to buy a tip.

Yeah, I think so. I think it also does kind of depend on the car specifically,

but like kind of automatically 60 over versus a manual.

It's maybe a decision, but also there are reasons.

There are value reasons. It depends on how the car is being used.

If you put GT4 as a good example, if you wanted to just do track driving with it,

you could probably do one PDK. If you're going to drive it around town

and go on long drives like we do a country, maybe one.

But if you're going to commute, this is why I've always said an auto Supra would be cool.

Like I think it'd be an amazing commuter.

And that's true of an auto NSX.

Like would you rather commute in a Model 3 like everybody else or sit in an auto Supra?

I'd rather sit in an auto Supra. Manual would be cooler, but not for bumper to bumper.

So I think that as long as there's a reason for it, it's fine.

There's a lot of other things to judge people about.

Yeah, don't eat that one.

Yeah, I'd rather judge people about rolling back.

Folks, please, please.

He's holding up the 993.

I am a Porsche enthusiast.

Porsche guy, someone said.

Okay, here's a good one from Clayson8. We'll do two more.

Clayson8, continuing last week's question of what car screams I know nothing about cars.

What cars say the most if you know you know?

Thinking of the Volvo S60R, Vig and Saabs, Jaguar RS for the mid 2000s.

You know, it's an interesting question. I'm bringing up the S60R when I worked at Porsche

as a Porsche enthusiast. Although I certainly wasn't then.

And we do job interviews. I would sometimes in the job interview ask people,

what do you think of the Volvo S60R? That was like a litmus test if they're a car enthusiast.

It was just enough. What do you think of the Mustang is like too obvious, right?

I like that question.

Yeah. So anyway, what are the most if you know you know car?

Lotus Carlton.

A V70R. I'm not going to give that 60R a pass because those are $3,000 cars now

for a bad one on Facebook Marketplace.

Really?

But a V70R. Yeah, they got a real cheap. A V70R.

If you know, you know.

Don't you think it's a Lotus Carlton?

Lotus Carlton is so niche, though.

That's what I'm saying, though.

But like, I think about this is like you see a car and like, oh, that person's an enthusiast.

Lotus Carlton.

Yeah, you sure. When did that happen?

40 RA.

Yesterday, we were having dinner and I drive home, I saw a guy in a sob 900 turbo and I knew he was

an enthusiast. I waved.

I think you have to remember specific. I think it's like, like if I see a new car,

someone driving a new car, like what identifies me.

You could say basically any old car. The guy who drives an AMC Pacer who lives near

that guy is an enthusiast.

Here's a question for you that's on the same vein.

What car, when you see it on the street, are you certain an enthusiast will be driving?

Obviously, Ferrari or the Carrera GT.

No, no, no, I wouldn't.

OK. Carrera GT maybe.

Let me step the question back a little.

Car that is certain enthusiast that you see regularly.

What is the most likely?

I'm not even going to give you Carrera GT.

Well, if you see a drivetrain or an enthusiast, but if you see somebody that owns one,

it's fine.

But I'm saying, car you see around, car you see once a week, at least.

What is the car that is the most likely to be an enthusiast that you see once a week?

You see it at least once a week.

You could.

Who?

I haven't seen it at least in two years.

You see it at least, you know.

OK. I'm talking about a car that's regular.

I'll tell you why this question comes up.

I drive my sports cars and I am astonished when I pull up next to a GTI and the person

doesn't look at the Countach or when I pull up next to a 997, the person doesn't look at the

Carrera GT.

And it suggests to me that there's a lot of non-enthusiast driving enthusiast cars.

So I'm curious, what is the most likely enthusiast car?

Yes.

An Elise.

One of the Miata's.

One of the issues.

There's not the NC.

You don't think.

So many automatic NDS.

Yeah.

You don't think.

You don't think that there's a lot of Tip Miata's out there that are just bought by

like an older person who wants a convertible.

If they have the the BBS, if I see the BBS wheels, I know.

How often do you see that?

No.

I see them on Kevin's old car.

You get my point.

But you get my point.

What is the car?

That's if I don't see them that often, that's the point.

A non-current 9-11 of any kind.

Yeah.

A non-current 9-11.

9-91 though even though.

No, no.

Pre-991 9-11.

Yeah.

I see them around.

Yeah.

But I don't know.

I do see enthusiast.

But I still see enthusiast cars that are driven by non-enthusiast.

Like there's an E46 and 3 in this neighborhood.

Missing a grill.

That's actually a good one.

M cars.

Yeah.

A lot of M.

There are a lot of M cars.

STI.

I will say SPIs and Zs I see almost every day.

They are enthusiasts.

But I have found in talking to those people that a lot of times they're just

enthusiasts of that community and don't really know all.

Like the career GT goes by, it's like a Porsche to them, right?

Once the M340i started existing, M cars.

You're right.

Because people that are only vaguely into cars will buy the M340 or the C43 AMG or whatever

and leave the top pinnacle for actual enthusiasts.

Yeah, that's probably true.

Something along those lines.

Okay.

Last question.

This is a good one from Bread Bowl.

It's a long podcast today.

I got no qualms about it.

Good pun.

From Bread Bowl.

Hello, Doug and friends.

I am of the opinion that normal cars become enthusiast cars after a certain period of time.

What do you think is the period of time that takes for a normal car to reach enthusiast status?

Can you go to Camry?

Can you pull up Camry on cars and vids?

That's what 20 years?

No, just type in Camry.

Yeah, yeah.

When I was a kid, this generation of Camry was hated by everybody.

It was the best generation of Camry.

This is my point.

Car enthusiasts thought this was kind of representative of sort of the decline of the

automobile.

If you went on internet forums in 2002, all people would talk about it as boring people

just by these Camry's and their cars and they're just by these boring,

milk-toed, stupid cars that are just so dull and they can't.

Nobody wants to have fun on the road anymore.

20 years later, I have noticed, there has become this beloved interest in cars like this.

And I'm so astonished by it because I was there.

I remember people, not only did people hate this car enthusiast, but they truly viewed

this car as a visible representation of the decline of automotive enthusiasm.

And now, if you go to Radwood, people are like, oh, man, I got a clean RAV4.

That car was like a boring front-wheel drive BS car that we were all rallying against.

Now, the cars have become electric and even people are like, oh, these were gas cars.

This was so cool.

That's not my reaction.

I think it's so funny.

I think that we as a community, by the way, my interest is academic at the time.

I also thought this was the best one.

My interest is academic and nature.

But I think that people have appreciation for cars that are kept well that shouldn't have been.

It's not that people think there's a good platform or that it's like a fun car.

But if you, I agree.

But people say this is a fun car.

This is like the best Camry.

And when I was there, it was not being said.

Well, the generation before that was like the strong contenders.

Both of them were truly considered.

It's like how liberals now feel about W. Bush.

They're like, oh, he wasn't so bad.

That wasn't the conversation dead.

I'll tell you.

But the Camry is a good example.

Go back to it.

Like all of these Camrys are now running them on this enthusiast website and they get love.

And people are like, oh, I have fond memories.

At the time, they weren't fond memories.

You hated your dad if he came home on one of these.

You were like, why did you get this instead of something cool?

Maxima.

We had that car, except it had hubcaps and a four cylinder.

We weren't rich like this guy.

And a gold package.

Oh, man.

This is a different level.

Well, different level.

Doing well.

I think the answer is 20 to 25 years.

Yeah.

The answer is 30 years.

Yep.

That's and it just so that's not cool enough for you.

Well, this is 25.

Yeah.

It's it's it's I'll tell you this.

The O2 Camry is not cool yet.

We did sell one, but the O2.

Where is it?

Go down a little bit.

It's on the next row.

You know the one I'm talking about with the with the ugly headlight?

This.

This car is not cool yet.

I agree.

You're right.

Not cool yet.

It was seen without a dent.

I'm sure over time.

It's it's so.

But the previous one that ended in 01 has become cool.

So there's a 25 year mark there.

What about a quartz?

Do we think that ending in 02?

The ending in 02 one is cool.

But the 03 is not cool yet.

06 hybrid 05 06 hybrid.

We agree the 03 accord was the best accord ever made, though.

One of the best cars ever.

Okay.

There are three generations in a row that I think are competitors.

The one before that.

The 98 02 and the one before that.

The 94 97 is I think the actual product.

No, they all got stolen.

That wasn't a good.

They got stolen because they were good.

Any car that you could start with a spoon is not the best car ever made.

98 02.

You have to at least need to use some sort of spoon knife hybrid tool.

Spork.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's the end of the pot.

We're way over time.

This pot is way too long.

Don't watch it.

If you've watched it this far, you've made a mistake.

You've watched it as far.

Go Ray does on Apple podcast or on Spotify.

It helps.

Yeah.

I don't know what that means, but I think you should do it or not do it.

Go see.

But it does help in Atlanta.

It's in like two weeks.

I don't know what we're going to do about the pod when they're gone.

It's just me rambling about the 993 turbo.

I'm staying here to be with you.

Felipe was going there to do something with an Aston Martin.

I don't know.

I am.

I'm filming a little video with an Aston Martin garage.

You know, it kind of looks like a 959.

There's like a little 959 here.

That's what we tell ourselves in the community.

You know what the difference?

993.

It looks good.

That's the end of the pot.

Oh, goodbye everybody.

Best podcast we've ever done.

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