Tops of the Ages

Good morning, afternoon, evening, wherever, however, you are joining us.

This is the I Speak Jeep Podcast presented by SFJ4by4.com.

Are you sure?

Very sure.

My name is Neil.

It is a lovely, balmy Monday morning, January the 12th.

It is technically our first episode of the new season.

We did not go live last week because of Jeffrey, solely because of Jeffrey.

Just Jeffrey.

Nothing to do with the fact that you were super sick and not confident that you could do an episode without me.

Jeff went to a foosball game.

Man, what a game to go to.

18 holes in Pittsburgh.

And it came down to the last putt.

18 holes in Pittsburgh.

It came down to the last putt.

Yeah.

Were they gonna birdie?

Were they gonna par?

Stop!

If you are a They missed the basket.

My gosh.

If you are a foosball fan like I am, uh it's been a it's been an epic season.

Absolutely, even the the playoffs so far this past weekend were nail biters.

Jeffrey had a uh an unusual opportunity presented to him via a family member as a kind of a gift, and uh we support you in taking that in preparation, knowing that you might not be back immediately in time because it was a late night game and all that kind of stuff.

We had said that you would show us how to run that equipment.

Um, and then I was dealing with the plague.

So so here we are, folks.

And uh today we're gonna do our best to pick up where we've let left off.

Uh, as the usually, I'm joined in Grandma's Couch Studio by by the producer guy over there.

Jeff Chiaramonte The Italian Stallion.

Yeah, and his nice SHJ special hoodie that has his name on it.

Yeah.

And you're you're wearing the snap-on hoodie that is similar in style.

I was gonna say...

There's a whole story about that snap-on hoodie.

It only costs you, I don't know, like $15,000.

Sometimes you have to.

And 10 years of buying tools.

Something.

So, anyways, that's the mad scientist.

Scott Brown sitting over there.

And we are going to be discussing uh some some the top tops of the ages.

And uh, but but with that said, uh, I do want to touch on some interesting information that was uh kind of trickled out to the talking heads of the industry last week.

I'm gonna leave you on a cliffhanger and we're gonna come back to what that is after I read some of the comments here.

Fair.

Um, but that way you guys have to guess what the information is.

Nate said good morning.

He was first.

Mike Glenz said good morning.

Daddy Jeep said good morning.

Good morning, good morning.

Nate gave me a shout-out for helping him troubleshoot what he believes is a bad oil cooler housing on his gladiator.

Uh Daddy Jeep said we have to stay on topic because he's got a meeting at 11.

Well, Rob, you know that's not going to happen.

Yikes.

Uh Bill McWilliams says good morning.

Billy Joe says good morning.

Nate is taking a mulligan because I slacked off and that's why the show was canceled last week.

So I don't get that.

Thank you after all.

Uh and then Jeannie's saying good morning and nice to see you all back.

Good morning, good morning to everybody.

We are so thankful uh for you participating in the comment section and understand uh if you are listening to us at a at a later date, uh, you too can join us virtually every Monday at 1019 a.m.

You can jump on the Book of Faces or the YouTubes and get into the comment section section and uh follow along and get to share with these other nice individuals, um kind of you know, chatter and whatnot as you see fit.

So um, and Jeffrey probably needs that that mulligan on the thank you because he was off partying without us.

I'm not jaded or anything.

uh right?

I mean, it was only the best Steelers Ravens game of like forever.

Ten years, I don't know.

Yeah, for sure.

So uh Jeep Chrysler Stellantis the mothership uh has officially proverbially, figuratively, literally pulled the plug on PHEVs.

Four by E is dead.

Yep, the four by E is dead.

And uh realistically speaking, this this I guess comes as no surprise to anyone, I guess, um because of a multitude of factors.

Uh they had reasonably told us years ago we were gonna get a uh a 4 by E gladiator.

They went ahead and and that was the the wish that never came true, despite them telling us it's usually on the truck market, so that's that's fine.

Yeah.

Yeah, I was gonna say they they they said we're gonna get a PHEV, which is plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, understanding that this is a vehicle that that terminology, let's just just call it as what it is, uh, is uh is a you you literally plug it in at your house or a charging station, and then um you additionally have a internal combustion engine, um, and then a hybrid

electric uh motor as well.

So this is the intended to be kind of the best of everything.

The Swiss Army knife of propulsion uh would be how I would have liked to have sold it originally.

However, uh it has been plagued with problems since its inception.

Um and and arguably right now, many of the Wrangler PHEV owners are on their second and third battery recalls where they're being told that they should not be charging their vehicle at home in an enclosed space and or just should not be charging their battery at all.

Um, they should be running off of that uh four-cylinder turbo engine that they have, which again is a super cool concept, but based on the materials available to us as an industry, uh the computer control and the battery technology continue to be problematic in these specific models.

So I have a uh prediction.

Okay, so we've seen this before on other-ish things.

Someone right now is circling the wagons and looking up all the part numbers for the 4xe that is specific, and someone is going to be hoarding 4xe stuff.

And this is a great segue into today's conversation because we're we're going to see a vehicle um both within the Grand Cherokee platform and within the 4xe Wrangler platform that is um gonna become antiquated, right?

So we had what's that?

It's gonna become orphaned.

Right, because now we have this multi-year production with, and I don't actually know what the production numbers are, but I'm I'm going to gather three quarters of a million vehicles.

That would be my guess between Wranglers and Grand Cherokee.

Someone look that up and tell Neil how wrong or right he is in the comments.

And I'm and I'm I'm I'm suspecting that in our our production of PHEVs, now it's really valuable, I sidebar right here and now to say that Jeep Stellantis is specifically claiming the death of the PHEV.

They are not saying they're killing the 4xe.

And that is an important differentiation because if you saw my excitement over the Jeep Recon, you know that the recon is utilizing the 4xe badge namesake.

Right.

And that is a strategic marketing tactic.

Jeff, do you have some numbers for us?

Over 350,000 between the Wrangler 4 by E and the Grand Cherokee 4 by E.

250,000 on the Wrangler and 100,000 on the Grand Cherokee.

Yeah.

Okay.

So someone right now is starting a business just specifically for grands.

So we have not we have a little over a quarter million, but not the three quarter million that I was thinking.

No.

Um the we have, you know, roughly 350,000.

You're saying just grands.

Oh my gosh.

Well, we've seen it before.

We have.

We find the people, you know, they we hear all the time like, how can you be a business that just focuses on Jeep because that's too niche?

We have seen the niche of the niche, of the niche of the market, and those people seem to be fairly happy and somehow opening doors every day.

I I agree with you.

I mean, there is an individual out there who was making a very specific bearing uh race, a bearing race assembly for quadratrack cases uh 76 to 73 to 79.

73 to 79.

Yes.

I I just I mean, that's what this individual does.

He makes this bearing race.

So impassioned by the love of the quad.

That it makes a bearing.

Good for you, dude.

But regardless, so we have 350,000 of these plug-in hybrid electric vehicles.

They're pulling the plug on now.

Mopar in general had some other uh some other platforms and whatnot.

And I think that some of those preliminary numbers uh of that three-quarter conversation may include, I think the Durango was PHEV uh at one time.

I don't know if you can what other PHEVs that Stellantis had.

Regardless, specifically 4xe namesake um is going to move on to a fully electrified uh recon.

Uh, I think there's gonna be a fully electric gladiator or gladiator Grand Cherokee, I think a wagoneer.

Um they're gonna have fully electrified versions of that.

It makes sense to take you know a namesake that is already flirting with things burning down to just go full electric, so we can just Well, and that's the thing is that while I love all forms of propulsion, this is it seems like Stellantis Corporate in Jeep North America and whatnot wants to just per close this chapter, like turn the page and pretend that that chapter doesn't exist.

Yeah, as Stellantis as a whole got rid of all PHEV, which is crazy.

Uh, and because they were they led the market in that.

Correct.

Uh, and that's Chrysler Pacifica.

Yes, Dodge Hornet, the Alpha Romera, or Romeo, however you want to say it.

That's right.

And then the Jeeps, the two Jeeps.

So I read that the the Chrysler Pacifica, uh, I read an entire article dedicated to PHEV Pacifica in the sense that it actually led the market in minivans, um, and certainly within its class of PHEV, um was the number one selling, uh, number one safety rated, bah bah, bah, bah, bah.

Had all these these indicators.

It makes perfect sense to ax that then.

And and then by axing that, right.

So that's exactly the conversation was that we axed an entirety of a chapter, and that's what goes beyond the Jeep stuff.

That's where I nerd out on things, folks, because I'm not just interested.

I am primarily interested in Jeeps, but I'm interested in Stellantis's activities as a whole.

Yeah.

And Stellantis as a whole had a 22% market share of the US plug-in hybrid segment.

Correct.

That's insane.

Correct.

Somebody's totally making a business on just specific H-E-E-P-V.

Right.

Now, my my question, because I nerd out on the business side of things as well, is why, if that if you have such a commanding market share, would you ax that program?

There's got to be other details to it.

Yeah.

There's got to be, it was it not profitable.

You could have the number one share and not be profitable.

It could be a loss leader.

And that's and that's what it is.

That is, that is what it is.

And I hate to to to exactly talk about the elephant in the room.

Um, but but I think we do have to talk about facts in the sense that it was a depreciating uh it was a depreciating market demand, right?

That's fact.

We can talk about people's desire to buy the product decreased.

Now, why?

I'm not going to get into that, but I can confidently say that people's desire to buy the product decreased.

What I will get into to say is that when we have active multiple recalls on uh potential uh fire and damage to property, right, that's not confidence inspiring.

We have uh a general uh piece uh that's kind of socially that there's a whole talking point regarding whether or not electrification is necessary at a at a at a federal and global level and or sustainable.

And then ultimately we have a financial piece that was the fact that Stellantis was highly subsidized and those subsidies have gone away.

So the subsidies for the consumer to purchase that, and that was a big part of the 4xe Wrangler, it was a $7,500 tax credit when it initially came out, does not exist anymore.

And the subsidation of the production at the manufacturing level to initiate this technology and get it available to people because that takes a ton of time, energy, and resource, and um the those funds are all gone.

So there are facts without trying to um muddy the waters with intent.

Uh, with that said, they're still moving forward with full electrification.

We've seen in the process of, say, Tesla, there is a market demand, there is viability, there are people who do want that.

Um and there is uh the MPGE, uh, which is when they run hybrid capacity, uh, for example.

The Pacifica was pushing over 80 miles, 82 MPGE, if I if I know, if I remember that.

People did like that kind of stuff, and they do, and we're gonna continue to want that, especially as we see increased fuel costs.

Um and so there's where why they want to go all the way to E to work on that uh getting closer to the say Tesla 200, 250 um, you know, kind of range as what they're supposed to be having.

So we'll see if it happens.

But uh largely becoming an antiquated uh technology where I wonder how that's gonna affect pricing of those models and relativity.

Because in 10 years from now, you have to know that if you're gonna buy a PHEV vehicle, and 10 years from now, are you gonna be able to get parts?

Is there gonna be people who can work on it?

Are there gonna be software updates available?

We recognize here internally at SFJ 4x4 our our point of sale system, our our Wi-Fi router, which at the time that we purchased those, they're not that old in the grand scheme of life.

We bought good quality, productive, valuable upper end equipment.

Yep.

And we're not 10 years removed, and those manufacturers have had said, we're not giving you software updates for your for your electronic equipment.

My laptop you should buy new equipment now.

My laptop literally came up and said, Hey, do you want to look at new computers?

I was shocked.

I was like, what?

Here we have a vehicle that's being a vehicle series, PHEVs as a whole, being phased out.

There's not going to be a dealership tech in 10 years from now who knows how to work on that vehicle.

Heck, they barely know how to work on it right now, right?

Yeah.

I mean, shout out to Keith Yauman.

Keith Yauman is a lifetime dealer technician.

Uh, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, I mean I get real fired up because Keith Keith's been in the game for 30, 35 years.

He's a great follower.

Uh he follows online.

Sometimes he jumps in the comments and everything.

He's been in the dealership sphere for decades.

And he's among one of the few individuals who knows these systems and can do the uh battery swaps efficiently at his dealerships.

He's a he's a sought-out commodity.

The younger guys who are coming into the dealerships don't even know how to work on them.

Ten years from now, we're not gonna know how to work on these.

I was gonna say they they ended this line at the time that people were just starting to learn it.

Correct.

So the the knowledge for it is very limited and is gonna go away very quickly.

Yes, and and and the part availability, hence Scott's contention that right now there's somebody out there clamoring for these parts and pieces.

Uh granted, how how many people is it really going to affect?

If it is, and again, taking into consideration the Hornets, the the Pacificas, and I thought you mentioned one other one I don't recall.

If it's if it's 500,000, if it's if it's between 500 and and the 750,000 units, do we just let those go to the crusher?

I don't know how we handle this as a society, as an automotive.

Because there's there will be a big share that'll go to the crusher.

But uh just like we saw, I don't know if you had seen it, but the first fully electric GM vehicle from the 90s, and they tried and then they ended up taking it back and crushing them all.

Yes, yep.

There is literally somebody restoring one right now because they were able to like this loophole, get one.

And there is a whole seam of the enthusiast market that is excited for these off different vehicles.

So I completely expect that's what I'm saying.

There are right now looking for this is the parts I need to stock up on before they go out of stock.

This is the information I need to latch on to.

I need to do some reverse engineering.

How can I make it better?

All that's happening right now for the empowered, impassioned people.

Now, with that said, and I don't want to kick this uh dead, partially electrified vehicle horse any longer, where it does actually have applicability is the last 80-some years of production of our Jeeps as we know it with the top technology.

And that's that's one of the things that we we do want to talk about today as well, because you know, uh arguably uh getting away from the divisive nature of uh electrification and and propulsion systems, which again, I will stand on the fact that I like all things that that prop you know propel forward in reverse and wheels and motors, and and I I I stand on that.

I'll I will die on that hill.

I don't care if it's a V8, I don't care if it's a uh uh A turbine, I don't care if it's a steam engine, uh, you know, I like all things that that make vehicles move, right?

And so that makes me an automotive enthusiast.

I take a lot of heat online for that.

Um, but we'll get away from that divisive divisive conversation to a degree and talk about top technology.

And prior to our little our brief winter break, I think Jeffrey, even in part of the game he was playing, we he mentioned the Arctic top.

One of the things that makes Jeeps unique from the get-go was the fact that our flagship vehicle uh has been convertible and the ability to take doors off, right?

So when we look at the Wrangler platform specifically, we're trying to even retain that in the recon with the intention, despite the fact that it's not in a traditional sense convertible, it's got the one-touch sky opening, and you got panels that can be removed and the door can be removed.

So even in this fully electrified, glorified, Tesla-esque SUV, we're still trying to take the top off of it.

Yep.

Right?

So as that plays out, um, one of the things that we we try to share with people is that the modern soft tops and hardtops that our gladiators and our Wranglers have is by far the best top technology we've ever stinkin' had.

Yep.

And yet it still leaves a lot of these Jeep owners.

Well, it is better than the Bronco, but 100%.

And I thought it was funny because I mean, obviously, we talked about the the I wish I could remember from that episode you you were we were playing the game and you brought up the Arctic top or a special package or something.

What do you said?

They've done that a lot.

And we actually uh this was kind of my brainchild, and I'm that we're gonna be working on sort of what makes each model kind of special, and what are the little like 10 things you don't know about a very common known Jeep um for each model?

Because there's always these questions that kind of pop up every four to five years as ownerships roll and and you get something new and you never owned it before, and you know, trying to figure out well, why does it have this and why does that work out?

And and really that kind of has always been a big thing with tops.

Uh, specifically, I think a good spot to start with because we have guys that'll come in like I want a vintage Jeep, and fives were made forever, and you know, they're probably you know, we're the million kind of uh production run.

So people go out and they'll look in the and see what the market holds, and more often than not, they find a five, but they don't know what that means to own a five, right?

Um, we've had uh big burly guys you know get to a certain point in the build and then they're like Ryan.

I'm just calling Ryan out.

Ryan, we're talking about you.

He's like, I I don't know if I fit in that small space right there.

Yep, um, but for for those that don't know, CJ5s never had a hard top from the factory.

You got if you got a top at all, you got a full canvas, including the doors, soft top.

Right.

And yes, the Willie's tops were probably worse, but I'm gonna go out and say that the the five was just the armpit of Topdom.

Here's here's what I think uh, and I want to make sure because right now there's there's people keyboard warriors, you know, readying their injustice at the night scientists.

Right, right, right.

That was the best Jeep they ever made.

Yeah, and so here's the thing.

First, first of all, elaborate upon there were special packages that uh were dealer packages that included hardtops at the time.

There were aftermarket, multiple aftermarket hardtop manufacturers uh because people needed and wanted to utilize the Jeeps in wintry conditions or inclement conditions or year-round and whatnot.

Wanted to use a four-wheel drive in the winter, correct, crazy without it snowing back into the Jeep, which is of course uh you know a a not just an option, but that actually is a requirement of a soft top Jeep of that of that vintage.

And you're one with the weather.

Right, right.

I mean, and and you know, it goes back to that that uh thing that Jeffrey had said.

You know, that's what was a you know special about when he was talking about the Arctic top or the Jeep came with the top, or that's it's actually the white cap and it's part of the 12 for 12 promo that Jeep's.

No, no, no, not that.

Not that.

No, it was it was about the actual You're like 40 years too late, Jerry.

Yeah, it was actually about like the CJ series, like CJ2As and and and whatnot.

Um and regardless, that reason that wasn't a factory top per se.

Yeah.

Um I mean the M38 is actually where the need for a better winter top came from, and it's because GIs and MBs were literally freezing to death in inside of Jeep with no top whatsoever.

Right.

And they were like, hmm, maybe we should give you them something.

So a little piece of canvas and some windows is better than nothing.

And and we were supposed to appreciate that.

And I think one time the American spirit did.

They were like, Well, at least I'm not driving around talking about it.

Oh my pinky fell off this ride.

I got called out last week uh because I took one of our convertible jeeps.

Uh we have a CJ7 in the shop.

It needed to be driven, and I needed a little wind therapy after the the the way that the world I and I love driving jeeps in the winter.

I don't know that I could I do it because it's novel, because I I appreciate that brief moment of of the discomfort that it provides, kind of like riding the Harley when it, you know, when the weather sucks.

Um, but I'm not doing it for every single day.

I'm not the GI waking up who needs to go check the perimeter and drive this, you know, this this topless Jeep.

So we needed the the tops and we appreciated the the canvas enclosure, despite the fact that the elements would still get in on us in a nut you know at 10% or 20% or 30% of it.

Yeah.

At least I wasn't getting soaked.

Yeah.

Wasn't 100%.

So your contention, real quick, your contention is that iconic era of Jeeps, right?

We're moved away from the CJ 2As and and and that era.

Let's move to the iconic, yeah, the those fives where people go.

A little more relatable.

Right.

That's where people get excited and they're like, well, I'm gonna buy this.

But it's a fair picture is almost to a point where they come in and they're like, Well, let's talk about top options, and I just look at them like that there isn't any.

They all suck still.

Best on makes a top.

And they're like, Well, what what color options do I have?

You don't.

You can get black.

Right.

And and and how does it seal up?

It it doesn't.

It's not a modern top.

It's just the best retrofit that they can do with what they've got.

The best thing that has happened to that top in the last 40 years is they removed the snaps that you had to drill into the side of your Jeep, and now you have the little uh trim piece that you pop the roll over on the side.

That was the biggest thing that happened since.

Yeah, and if I wasn't being cynical, if I was trying to look at it like rose-colored glasses, I would tell you they've improved the fabric, and obviously the the material workmanship is a little bit better, and they don't have the snaps and whatnot.

It's still not a JT or a JL soft top, it just never will be.

Nobody, best top, weathermaster, master top, whoever, nobody is actually investing the time, energy, and resource to do the multifaceted approach to giving a CJ5 or a CJ7 the modern conveniences of today's top technology.

No, it's just not happening.

And like normal, Jeep does listen to us a little bit.

So they listened to the crying and whining of the of the CJ5 people back then and the fact they couldn't get in because their you know tub was into their door jam.

And they came out with a CJ7, which was had a bigger door.

Now you actually could get hard doors with glass windows that rolled up and down craziness, and you could now get a fiberglass hardtop from the factory with a steel back window for some reason that rusted away in three years.

Um why I didn't know, but it's like we're almost all fiberglass, and we're gonna go back.

Decisions were made.

So, anyway, and and right there is probably a thing that people don't know.

Why can you not find a CJ7 hardtop with a 90% of them on the market have no back window?

Because they were steel and they fell off.

Where does all the schmutz on a dirt road or on a I don't care, you're just driving it?

It it's a flat back vehicle, gets all collects all the schmutz.

It goes right back there, but still could get for those ones that like to suffer, you could still get the full soft top with soft doors, Jeep um that would leak on you.

And you still had leaks with the hard top, but it was a step in the right direction.

It was like now, like my my wife CJ7, the only place that really leaks is the tailgate for obvious obvious reasons.

Um right, but anyway, that's something that people do not think about uh with that, and we can't even go into bow structure because they changed that like umpteen million times, sure, and the aftermarket changed it a bunch.

Um but all intents and purposes, they still weren't that great.

I need people to know when I got into Jeeps, um I I we had a soft top.

I actually had multiple soft tops because I had a soft top on our CJ2A, um, we had soft tops on our YJs.

How often did you put the soft top on the 2A?

Or was it in the corner and you just said I have a soft top over there for it?

Um, so the soft top was on the Jeep.

Okay.

Once.

Uh, you know what?

I mean, multiple times.

So here's the thing, right?

I need I need this to to I always I try to talk about the fact that I make I've done everything the hard way.

I promise you that you can attest to that.

And and people from the outside looking in at this point in the game make their judgments based on what they see on the interwebs.

And that's whatever.

I can't control human nature.

But I've literally done everything the hardest way possible.

And I had the CJ2A 40s, uh, we have 46, we have 48.

We actually had the top on multiple times, right?

Because it would have made too much sense, like you said, to take it off and leave it the heck off.

But no, my family, we were supposed to be able to use this, and so therefore we did.

We literally had independent bows that had to be pinned into place when the top went on and off.

So so if you if you guys think about your soft top or if you have a somebody in the club, maybe you're a hard top person and you have somebody in the club, that just kind of folds back nicely and all of the apparatus folds back in kind of a uniform fashion.

We would have to peel back the canvas and individually remove bows and and then set them off to the side.

The intention was not necessarily um that they they did break down to go into the Jeep, but it was cumbersome.

It was it was like carrying around a bunch of extra tools and parts and pieces.

The canvas was like trying to fold uh the largest fitted sheet you'd ever seen for a bed.

Like nobody could ever once it came out of the package, it wasn't going back in.

That's right.

And so these were independent bows that had to be removed piece by piece by piece and put back piece by piece by piece and lined up piece by piece by piece.

Yeah.

Um it's like the Christmas trees we grew up with, where they had all the color coding and the certain spots on the pole.

And if you accidentally put the orange branch, no, because I'm not a poser and I go out in the world and I have a live tree that dies for my enjoyment.

Which is why you just don't play with the top on those Jeeps.

Which thank you, the Greg Christmas tree farm.

But not sponsored because I absolutely grew up with the color-coded and I understand.

Regardless, that's the nature of the tops at that time.

If if you accidentally put bow three and bow two spot, it would be things don't work.

You're gonna have a bad time.

It wasn't gonna work.

And and that was what we did with those tops.

You had to have some knowledge, some inclination.

You had to have some you weren't you had to have a hammer and a crescent wrench, yes, and and a screwdriver, and you had to fuss with it.

Yeah, it's not enjoyable, it's not mass consumer friendly.

It's not, oh, I'm I'm it's gonna rain today.

I might, you know, take my top with me and take it down right now and put it back up, and choices are made at the beginning of the day.

Yeah, yeah.

Take it down what because it's nice out, and then it's cold at night, and you try to put it back.

You're not doing any of that.

That's not that wasn't what we did.

And and we're folks, we're not talking this was that long ago.

This was literally just in the last 25, 30 years.

So, again, the tops that we have now are light years ahead of what we had then.

So I'm gonna get you just back on track, and I have to go off topic for two seconds and say if you see a CJ7 with half doors, those are not CJ7 doors.

They never made a soft uh uh soft upper door for a CJ7.

You could get a cam full canvas door or a full metal door with a glass window.

That was your two options.

The lucky thing is because Jeep is cheap when they be designed the YJ, even though it was an all-new Jeep and a complete differentiation from the old, the tubs are 92%, 92.36

percent the same as the CJ7.

Right.

So you could take a YJ half door and walk over to your CJ7 and drop it on and and latch it, even though most CJ owners hate YJs.

So go figure.

So figure.

I I just want a point of clarification.

You said 25 to 30 years, but we're talking CJs.

Uh I'm saying when I was messing with these these bows was 25-30 years ago.

Okay.

When you I just wanted to clarify because I think I think we were a little older than you.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

25-30 years ago, and I'm I'm messing with with Willie's soft tops and YJ soft tops is was just 25-30 years ago, and we were using the the best of the technology we had available at then for those times.

Fair.

That's what I'm sharing.

Just because I know that we've talked about TJs being historic.

Well, and that's and that's actually this whole top conversation.

And I know that Scott has a path, but I literally just had this conversation uh about a TJ that we have in the shop right now, and he had a ratted out um soft top on it, and I sold him a hardtop for cheap and in good condition.

And I personally am an individual who I actually when it comes to that older technology, I see value in having a hardtop, and then when it's a good day, just take the hardtop off.

Now that's I'm also a big dude who can handle a hardtop.

Um, I also don't mind keeping my hardtop in precarious places.

I grew up keeping our hardtops under the tree in my parents' backyard.

The squirrels and the rabbits thank you for the shelter.

Correct.

You're mowing past it and you just pray every time you you you mow and you make sure your discharge is shooting the other direction of the top.

Yeah.

Whereas I factually know people who like that makes their eyes twitch and cringe.

They could never possibly think about keeping their top on the ground, even if it was just shored up on some pieces of wood or a pallet or whatever.

I've seen some pretty cool top whole systems, and it's supposed to be garage and it's kept pristine.

That is the world we're living in, where that's marketed to you every single day on the Instagram and the Book of Faces, and that's how you're supposed to keep it.

I grew up the hardtop, we took the we took the hardtop off.

We set it in the grass next to the tree and we moved on with life.

Yeah.

And oh, it's gonna be crummy.

If you were extra careful, you put some blocks under it before you set it down in the grass.

That's right.

Yeah.

That's right.

Because again, how we relate to these vehicles has changed, and I understand the cost of replacement parts has also changed, and now a replacement top is exorbit in comparison to what it once was because of the nature of what the construction material is.

But uh with that said, the TJ owner, I said, hey, listen, put I sell you this hardtop for cheap.

Run a bikini top in the summer, throw, get one of those uh rain fly covers.

We all have them, whether you buy a name brand one or an Amazon one, they're all actually pretty decent for the price you're paying.

Throw the top on when you're you know at work or in the school or at the restaurant, take the top, you know, take that rainfly top off and drive home when you're done.

Yeah, to me, again, seems very s overly simplified, but I recognize for customers who you know might have mobility or strength issues uh putting up and down the top regularly don't know what they're buying.

They they don't have the idea of what they're actually signing up for.

Um and that's again, I had a phone call this morning, and the guy says, Hey, I have a YJ.

I bought a hardtop, and my doors don't fit.

And I said, Let me guess, you have half doors.

And he says, Yeah, how'd you know?

Because we've been dealing with this problem since 1987.

Yep.

And for those that don't know, uh YJs, when they came out, they they heard the cry of the CJ7 owner wanting this half door, and they thought, well, we're gonna make this simple.

If you have a soft top, you get half doors.

Yep.

And if you have a hard top, you get full doors.

And they're basically a copy of the CJ7 door with a little a couple a couple of upgrades in the process.

For general sakes, late CJ7 door and a YJ door pretty much the same.

Yep.

So, anyways, the problem then falls if you have a YJ with a hard top and full doors, and you want they didn't quite retool things.

They they knew that they could satisfy market demand, yep, but they didn't invest in actually making you know, making the the solution seamless.

They they approached it in a in a twofold manner.

Okay, you go up this path or that path.

But you don't get to go up across unless you want to buy both paths and store both paths.

Which we did.

I need again, I no, I'm saying literally my family.

Again, we did everything the hard way for you, our listeners.

Yeah, we did.

My dad, we had both, and we would put both on and off the vehicle with regularity.

It was a it was a Jeep, had lots of accessories.

And if you're lucky, they all match paint-wise.

Oh, and they did, and and and and that was a contender for buying and selling at the time.

It would be like, this Jeep comes with both a soft door, half doors, soft, soft uppers, and full doors, and blah, blah, blah.

And then the aftermarket saw a need because because the uh the manufacturer obviously dropped the ball.

Chrysler, uh as the owner at that time, didn't make the round upper.

You haven't gotten to this, but the aftermarket went ahead and started making uppers.

For the half doors.

For two seconds.

Oh, absolutely freaking literally.

At this point, I don't even bring them up when I talk to people because it's not worth telling them because it only existed for two seconds.

They don't exist anymore.

Steelhorse, Acme, uh, a handful of them made these upper like garbage.

Yeah.

That's whatever.

We were again, we were happy for it.

Yeah.

But what the what we haven't elaborated on is that the the bow structure of the YJ soft top um at that time, because now you can get a rounded uh a rounded bow structure, but at that time was a all right angles.

Yeah, it was a 90 degree angle.

Uh it was a little harsher than that.

But um, but that's why the soft uppers of that half door construction are the sharpest corner.

They they are.

And then full doors on both the CJ and the YJ were rounded.

Yeah.

And so uh, you know, we we had this, like you said, this just this ongoing battle of people who don't know what they don't know and trying to mix and match them.

And uh the aftermarket comes in and tries to give us rounded.

So now we're back to the the TJ, I think.

And TJ then saw the ills of their ways, right?

And then you could get a top of your half door that was round and would sort of work with your your hardtop, and you could get a hard top equipped Jeep with a soft top at the same time, and your full doors would work with the soft top, was revolutionary.

Um, and so you realized when you went home from the dealership, you had to remove your hardtop to unbury the soft top to unwrap it to then install it yourself.

They just were nice and gave you the stuff.

Yeah, it was good, it was good overall.

Overall, it was pretty good.

But the the biggest takeaway is people it gets fuzzy as a memory goes, and now they the DJ and the YJ kind of get blurred and and they don't realize how much change happened between models and and levels.

Well, and again, I think that part of it also has this there's this romance or nostalgia, somebody who has purchased a JK recently or a JL, a JT, you know, one of the later latter models within the last 10 uh to 15 years, and they go, Man, I would like that iconic blah Jeep.

And they don't recognize uh just how far removed that model is from the modern day conveniences that they currently have.

And not only that, uh again, another phone call is uh JK tops, there was an evolution of those over the course of the manufacture, and brackets and bow structure and that kind of stuff all slightly changed as you went along.

Now, if you go in and you buy a brand new top and it comes with all the bracketry, you're good to go.

Where the problem goes is when you go to buy a used top that's in gentle condition, you know, they drove it home, they took the soft top off, they stuck it in the corner, pieces get lost, rats drag things away, who knows what, the cat took it, that kind of stuff.

But now you're looking for this random piece, this random bracket, and you don't realize two doors and four doors don't share brackets.

Two doors and four doors don't share bows, two doors and four doors don't share top structure.

Um all that is different.

And uh we could have been, I'm just gonna make something up, but you could have been four years in and suddenly decide that bracket that goes on the roll bars actually needs to be slightly different.

So we're going to supersede that part.

Well, that means all those tops before that use this specific bracket, and all the tops after that use that bracket, and you can change the brackets and make things play nice, but what bracket do you need for what?

Right now that you're going back, and maybe you have like an 09 top and you're trying to put it on a 17.

Well, now how do things interconnect and work?

Um that's factual, actually.

I mean it's 100%.

I uh real quick want to jump into the comments because we've had a lot of comments and we haven't done a good job of keeping up with those today.

So Roy joined us, said good morning.

Uh Jagga Jeepers joined us, said sorry he was late.

Yvonne joined us and said have a great morning.

Um there as we scroll through, Jerry Huber said a reasonably priced Rubicon 4x not a good candidate for a hemiswap, just saying.

Um I don't know.

I'm willing to try personally.

Of course you are.

Uh we had uh a bunch of different comments about the tops and heat and needing tops, not needing tops, whatever.

Uh Fred's in the comments saying I have a mold to make CJ7 hard top lift gates.

I knew he did.

And I I wasn't gonna call him out by by by name, but Fred does.

I've seen his I've seen his research.

I had a fiberglass work gate.

I didn't that one I had didn't fit worth crap.

Yeah, but again, not all fiberglass.

I bet you Fred's is better.

Fred's is probably better.

Then uh Daddy Jeep said before he has to go to work, do work stuff.

Uh the Banham registration is live now, and a couple other people had mentioned that.

There are some really exciting things in the work for next year.

What are those?

He's not telling yet.

So stay tuned because I'm sure Daddy Jeep will let us know as as he's allowed to.

Um then we've got Stroke Guy Overland 5060 saying, Happy Monday, guys.

And then Jerry YJ, the square corner versus the round corner, is still a mystery.

Yep, 100%.

And uh, you know, it is one of those things that as an industry, and to me, when the topic uh of today was you know, the top uh again, I think it's valuable to keep revisiting because this podcast does reach a lot of um not just longitudinal Jeep owners, but new Jeep owners as well, to kind of continue to talk about uh this because we get we get emails and messages from people all the time saying, Oh, I learned so much, I I

I didn't know this, or I was unfamiliar with that, or I thought I had heard about this, you know, that kind of stuff.

And so I think it's valuable to keep talking about it.

But for me, it relates directly to uh Stillantis pulling the plug on these PHEVs because we we create a top technology, we create a technology to meet a market need for whatever's happening in the community globally in that moment, and we do it within reason with the best of what we can muster up in that moment.

And you know, hindsight always being 2020, we recognize like, well, we can look back and be like, oh wow, that was not awesome, you know.

Just like we can look back, having lived through some of these top debacles and be like, that is not awesome.

Where somebody else could be looking in on it, being like, Oh, that's so overly romanticized.

This sounds like quaint.

That's quaint.

That would be really cool to love it when my sharp cornered top doesn't fit my round cornered top.

Absolutely stinking Lutley, you know, and you know, the We're living it like it's 1994.

Oh boy, and you know, and arguably it is important to continue to talk about these things, to share these experiences, to inform people, um the good, the bad, and the otherwise, to say where we're at right now with our top technology is the best we have ever been.

But that perspective is light years from where we once came.

You know, Broncos.

What's and Broncos?

Well, I you know, Bronco engineers were just like, hey, Jeep's been producing something for 30 years, I'm not gonna look.

I think they bought a CJ5 and used that as their model.

That is absolutely the most straightforward thing they could have done, but how crappy they made their soft tops.

They're like, oh, we'll put a bikini top on it and then we'll throw some side panels and see if it works.

But they don't need to connect, they don't need to connect.

It's fine.

Yeah.

Wind does not happen.

Super weird.

But you know, but but they mind the gap.

The the talking point with the tops folks, and the other thing they think I I think is important to address is tops becomes um a sounds silly, but a deeply personal issue.

And I had started to talk about the fact that I recognize that not everybody has mobility or the ability to open and close their soft top.

That's why they might go for a power top, um, which is now being called the e-top by best top, uh my top uh performer design.

Um and that's why you have the the basically a huge sunroof that folds back now.

Um the one the the one touch um sky view one touch, because again, as you mentioned, maybe you don't need the whole complete and absolute stripped down feeling.

Right.

Um, you might want to invest in that.

We have not, as a people and as Jeep owners, said this is the one top you get and this is all you get, right?

Yeah, we like the options, and the the manufacturer continues to try to meet our needs.

Or Jeep people, we like our accessories.

We do, you know.

And and I, you know, I I jokingly, I don't know, I talk about the for the most part, the modern day Impala, you just it's just a sedan, just a just a hard top, you know.

Um, those people, you can either get a sunroof or maybe not.

You know what I mean?

That's about as much of an option you get out of um, you know, I'm just make some my wife had a 2008 Impala.

That's pretty much all you got.

You got a solid roof and you either or you got a sunroof in it.

Whereas uh, you know, Jeep historically has been trying to stand by this full convertible experience and therefore meet the needs of modern individuals.

Um and you can make it a truck in a pinch with the right top.

Don't why are you doing this?

Why because I know you like it.

I do, I love You might have a TJ that looks a little bit like Lemon.

I don't know that we have time to go down that rabbit hole.

That's that's there's a whole other there's a whole other conundrum there as far as tops and half tops and and that kind of stuff is concerned.

Um I think maybe the the potential takeaway in this this moment is um you know is an encouragement to not overly romanticize the uh the older models and and their tops.

Don't if you are a new You can romanticize it, just be ready for the licks to come when you really sinks in and you're like this kind of sucks.

Yeah.

Yeah, I you know what, and what Scott is referencing is I have this little uh farm Jeep TJ that has uh not even a good half cab on it.

It literally just has a bikini top and a uh like a divider, a code that we used to call a windjammer.

And I'm desperate to drive this Jeep in a full-time capacity, and yet I have no time to work on anything of my own.

That's why I literally have multiple daily driver jeeps of my own that I'm not driving to just sit broken uh because I'm never working on my own stuff.

And yet I love the idea that I have like a little truck bed, I can throw some trash or you know, spare tire, pick up some parts, throw them in the bed of the little Jeep, um whatever.

Uh, and and just so you know, half cabs, and I know Jerry Huber is watching, he's got uh he's a lucky duck, he has the J8 conversion.

Um and that one is meant to be a fully sealed up uh half cab, which converts uh you know an a JK Unlimited into a short wheelbase pick-em-up truck.

Whereas TJ's, you had to go with like a Great Tops or a Brute conversion, and it's always amazing people fawning over those those changes.

Understand if you have one of these one off Jeeps, you've now taken that same antiquated top construction or phased-out PHEV and you've narrowed it down even further because now we're going off of a brute conversion that might have had a one-year-only production seal.

To make it even better, uh, it's just something that always sticks in my mind.

They made a scrambler with a full metal top, I think it was metal, that was specifically for Alaska for mail delivery.

Yep.

And there is a little group pining over these.

Oh, and they bring big, big money.

Yep.

The Alaskan Mail Jeep has a postal Jeep, has dedicated collectors, followers, restorationists.

And it is a specific top just for that because most scramblers for the rest of the great 50 states had a half cab.

This was not that way.

As a as a full enclosure, it was or a really super crappy soft top, which had even more bows than my willies did.

Yeah.

Um, the only thing worse than that was a CJ6 soft top.

Oof.

Uh just one of the last comments here.

Uh, Nate said, I want a YJ with a half cab top.

What an interesting combination that you might want.

How fun.

Remember, all I can say is if you ever obtain that, remember that joy and this feeling you have right now.

Yes.

Bottle it up, and when the Jeep kicks you a lot, open it up and go, I wanted this.

That's right.

Neil does that every day.

I do.

It's how we get through the day sometimes.

And on that note, folks, we do have a lot of jeeps to get to.

If you want to hear about what's happened in the interim, uh I'm sure we'll have some updates for you.

We've got a lot of jeeps to work on.

Until next time, Jeep on.

Jeep on.

I wanted this.

I feel like I have to.

That is your mantra.

I did this to myself.

Yep.

Amazing what ice cream can fix.

For those that don't know, a lot of workplaces have a sidebar or flask in the drawer, bottles hidden somewhere for those days or those moments.

We have a freezer.

We have an ice cream bar.

And I've invested in an electrical ice cream.

Just ice cream.

Yeah.

And life really starts to uh weigh on me.

And last week I threw uh an impromptu ice cream sundae uh party because I was just done.

I was Jeeps I kicked him.

Oh, oh, so much.

So, so much.

So uh we've been off quite a while.

Yes.

You've been a very busy baby.

I have.

Uh I had a guy ask me yesterday, it's like, so are you gonna drive the T this this summer?

I was like, No, I don't have any intentions of doing that.

He said, Well, you've been making a lot of progress.

You're making a ton of progress.

I accidentally made it look like a whole car.

You did.

Uh at this point, it has a frame under the body and it has a front axle and front brakes, and it has wheels and tires, and it has a rear end and a motor sitting in it, a transmission case.

And so what I heard is you're gonna be driving it this summer.

Right?

I feel like that makes sense to me.

Uh so well, I've been having lots of fun with it.

Uh, if you're interested in that project, go on to my Instagram.

That's where I try to share that with the world for all the updates I'll show basically as I work along.

Uh this past weekend's uh Triumph was sticking a F2 to F5, so a big truck from like 48-ish to 52-ish uh in there because everybody inside it wouldn't fit and it fits great.

What what uh uh what part?

Steering box.

I don't I don't know, I didn't hear that.

I didn't see steering I didn't hear steering box.

So you put a big truck steering box on this car.

Yep, and it's told that the uh the the forefathers have said that if you do this, it makes it like it has power steering because this box of the design is so robust, it's so big.

It it's made to turn 20-inch tall tires, uh old bias plies with a that's when trucks were trucks and they were heavy and and massive.

Sure.

So now that I'm asking it to turn a tiny 560-15 tire, it's gonna be like one finger, I'm I'm told.

We'll see.

Interesting.

But so far, uh looks like it fits pretty good.

So I'm excited about that.

Lots of trimming and finessing and critiquing.

Um, but that is what the whole build is.

So for those that don't know, this this car right now we're just doing mock-up.

We're putting everything together kind of as it comes, as it you know, leaks or rusts or whatever, and then uh the car will have to come completely apart.

But that's when the restorative process will go through the axle, through the in um, through the the gearbox, through the steering box, and then paint and then reassembly of all that.

So that's why I'm saying like it's probably not gonna run this year um and go down the road because it is just in the mock-up stage.

And we're making basically a salad of Ford from tw 1926 to somewhere in the 50s.

So sure.

Well, that's makes sense for a Ford.

So absolutely that's how they it's how they work, they came off the line as far as I'm concerned.

Um and not uh not to explicitly kick you in the feels, uh-huh.

Um, but as a as a audience wanting to know, because I've I've fielded this question for you a couple times, uh, and certainly I know other people ask, how's your building?

Uh building is uh holding strong with the wind that we've had off and on because of all of our great nail installation.

We have some crazy wind in the past you know month or so.

But I am a big baby and don't like to be cold or wet uh or snowy.

So uh right around Thanksgiving, I pretty much stored everything away, pulled the plug, uh, gave Jeff a vacation from building from Jeff the Builder.

Yep.

And uh we have not done anything on it since then, and uh I hope to reconvene when it's a little bit nicer outside, and we can actually have tools out and not be trying to pack them away or blown away, or blown away.

Um, but we are basically down to the roof structure um and then we have some framing we need to do, and then we might be able to sheet it, I think.

But I'm not I'm not the expert.

I'm just I just try to hold things and get uh tools, nails, and and equipment and say, here, Jeff, tell me what to do.

And and he has learned, he has to be very explicit.

If you tell him to go attach a board and don't tell him to use a level, the board just gets thrown on there.

It doesn't matter.

Oh and all 200 nails that he has at his disposal go in.

It's true.

And if you don't specify that you need not that part of the board, but that part of the board, it's dealer's choice.

I have um I'm gonna I'm gonna steal your your your thunder and go off of your your building uh escapades.

And of course, I am constantly via my uh uh Google photo memories and my Facebook memories now being reminded of just how long I've broken ground on.

Does that hurt?

Oh, just I mean, just absolutely terrible how long I've broken ground on this house build.

Now, the compound is is gorgeous at this point.

It's it's it's fun to drive onto the property.

I was out there walking the dock.

uh running my dogs last night and you know the sky is gorgeous and it's quiet and we've got like solar lights and it's flickering off the snow and we've got multiple outbuildings now and um you know it's cool but I don't live there right right and it's it's painful in that regard that you know how much time energy and effort has been invested in this space that I don't actually occupy full time.

Not to mention how much more is left to be able to correct correct I've tried to like convince myself that like if you were an individual who owned a cottage in a in a destination space you know maybe it was a lakefront cottage or a a cabin in the woods that going to this space brings you joy regardless of the fact that you don't live there.

Right right and I brings you joy on the way there.

And then when you get there you realize that the roof leaks that the front door doesn't quite close right you were supposed to be such a negative man supposed to bring that tool I get there and go, man, this place has so much potential I just can't wait to get it done.

No doubt, right?

Okay I'm with God here.

I'm cuts going, this leaks, this sucks, I don't want to be here by and the good news then is I don't have to experience that it's got like a YJ in the piece of YJ.

Oh boy that's not true.

Your scenario is like a YJ I like this Jeep.

This thing is a piece of joke no wow that's awesome has no redeeming quality I don't care what you say Rob and if it's not capacity the only reason his is good is because it's only like a quarter Jeep left.

I a 95 four cylinder five speed is is maybe the only acceptable YJ at this point.

You said four cylinder?

Did I say four cylinder?

I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry four oh six cylinder my bad my bad you've been hanging around me too much oh goodness anyways uh so what I have been working on because I have not had uh between my kids activities and and and being healthy or not in this this wintry season um I've I've got as I mentioned multiple jeep projects that do not get touched um so that sucks uh fortunately I've

driven my wife's jeep a lot but it's falling apart so that's cool um I felt some type of way about jeeps recently if anybody needs to know we take donations ice cream I like strawberry yeah I'm a vanilla ice cream guy that's the only thing vanilla but regardless uh he'll take pumpkin spice sounds fun uh anyways anyways anyways I have kind of gone forward and all of these outbuildings because we're still we're like four years in

we still don't have electricity out there I've converted everything off of inverters and deep cycle batteries and LEDs and that's been a little bit of my project so all of my outbuildings have electricity at them but it's off grid electricity um and that's been something that I've been able to control and and kind of establish so that um in these winter months I am able to still use those spaces um despite the challenges that you know that the the the

the lack of daylight and our work schedules pr present.

Yeah my outbuilding has solar as well it just only works when the daylight's out mine are actually off of deep cycle batteries at this point but not just on the sun when it's not cloudy.

Yeah right yeah right anyways there's that and like I said I don't have a good thing to say about my own Jeep project so I'm I I defer to Jeffree.

I mean uh a lot of work on the nonprofit with the end of the year trying to do all the closing books the tax forms everything involved with that so that's a lot on its own uh of course planning for the new year with the nonprofit and all the that type of stuff uh big grant was awarded to the nonprofit for $10,000 towards strategic reinvestment so that's really fun and exciting um but also very challenging with with the amount of extra work that adds to it.

And then otherwise the only other big update I had was that Kristen and I got to go enjoy the the Steelers versus Ravens game and that was an absolute amazing game to go to what an experience we got to do some tailgating we got to see the drum line up close and personal I mean it was it was really fun experience all the way to the uh nail anxiety riddled end of that game uh where everyone in the stadium starts to leave because the game's over there

the Ravens are kicking the field goal for the win and they missed.

Right.

And the Steelers win and they're in the playoffs and I got to go through it again tonight watching the game with the anxiety of them playing against the Texans which will undoubtedly come down to a nail biter at the end and who knows who's gonna win.

No doubt.

It's I said if you're into the foosball it's been an exciting season for a lot of people I do want to uh Jerry Hubert of course I always uh tremendously respect what so much of our audience brings because we have such an eclectic uh very cool connected group of people who are part of this greater podcast family um but Jerry was the man he was he was literally uh in charge of the assembly plant um in this era that we largely discussed uh today or at least we're

you know kind of joking about the YJ and he was talking about a uh prototype uh half cab soft top for a YJ and he has an example of it that was created in 1990 um after a 750 mile trip to Massachusetts in his YJ and he's still functioning today.

That's pretty cool.

I mean I I you know what one of our our and I I I enjoy emails uh and messages from so many people who uh find this podcast uh to be part of their infotainment um but I am in awe over the individuals who make up this this larger uh podcast family and and Jeep family that we are so closely associated with because um and I don't want to explicitly because there's just

so many unique people who played such a pivotal role in uh the history of our the Jeep brand and and and I'm I'm just always so in awe of I've already mentioned a couple of them today and and and and the community as a whole um and it's cool to hear these tidbits you know like from Fred with his fiberglass molds that he has available or Jerry and the prototype stuff and the work that he did and Rob uh and the work that they're doing at Bantam and um Nathan

and and Trail Hero X and uh this the show jeeps, the genie.

I mean I we could do a whole podcast about the people that make this podcast unique um in such an impactful way.

On that note that's a good way for me to add in because I was feeling some type of way about my personal projects but uh until next time Jeep on Jeep on Jeep on That was the best jeep they ever made

Tops of the Ages

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