Why boring cars can be as great to own as special ones #287

Welcome back to the Intercooler podcast

everybody. The car podcast powered by

car finance specialist JBR Capital. This

is episode 287 with Dan Proser and

Andrew Frankle. Uh Andrew, lots and lots

that we want to talk about.

>> Goody. That's how we like them.

>> Not least because last week, wasn't it?

We spent a very very very happy day um

on one of our usual stomping grounds in

Wales in a couple of gorgeous cars.

Well, we'll come to those though.

>> Yeah, we were so lucky that day.

It was unbelievable

>> for all sorts of reasons.

>> Yeah. Um there's I want to talk a little

bit about Jensen Button who's hanging up

his race boots.

>> Yeah.

>> Um at least as a sort of full-time

professional.

>> Yeah.

>> This weekend.

>> Wow.

>> Um there's my car, my Audi A6, my

electric Audi A6 longterm. I just want

to discuss briefly. Um but let's start

with this weekend's fourthcoming

Brazilian Grand Prix.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Um so it's there's four to go, including

Brazil. Yeah,

>> this is a sprint weekend.

>> Mhm.

>> Um,

where do we stand? So, Lando Norris has

just taken

the lead in the driver.

>> He's recovered a 34 point deficit.

>> Yeah,

>> I think I think the real to me the

really I mean there's there's obviously

all this speculation about whether um

Max will do it,

>> which he clearly still can. I think

George can technically do it, although I

don't think anybody thinks he will. Um

but to me the I I think the real

question is what has happened to Oscar?

What where has his form gone?

>> Yeah.

>> And is it does it not say something

about those cars um that if one little

thing gets changed then they are so on a

knife edge and if it gets changed in a

way that happens to suit one driver that

doesn't suit the other then the other

driver doesn't sort of fall you know a

few hundreds behind. He he becomes

uncompetitive.

>> It's unbelievable.

>> It is real. I I don't know what it is.

Of course, there are all the largely

Australian conspiracy theorists

[laughter]

who think that it's all a stitch up and

this is McLaren wanting a British driver

to

>> Yeah.

>> to take the title. I I don't believe

that for a moment. I I genuinely don't

believe that. Um

>> but um you know, it wouldn't be the

first time. And in fact, we're going to

talk about this on a podcast we're going

to do next week, um, which is going to

be, um, an historical look back at

Formula 1 title fights. Uh, it wouldn't

be the first time that, uh, people have

cried foul in the team.

>> Yeah.

>> About, you know, those on high wanting

one driver to win over another. I I

repeat, I don't believe it. But, I mean,

what do you think

>> about Oscar? About what's gone on there?

>> Did you hear this? Have you heard the

story about him having a cracked

chassis? Yeah. I I don't know if there's

anything in any substance in that at

all. And the teams check these things

very very carefully.

>> Absolutely.

>> Of course they do.

>> Yeah.

>> Um so what's happened there? I think I

think you're right. I think the the cars

always evolve throughout the the year.

Upgrades are fitted

>> and those upgrades can make a subtle but

meaningful difference that means that it

just doesn't suit one driver anymore.

Um,

>> yeah. And it's particularly problematic

that it has happened at this point in

the season

>> because they're not upgrading anything

anymore.

>> No, that's it now.

>> Everybody is focused on next year. I

mean, the cars the car that that's I

think that's been out for the last few

races and certainly for the rest of the

season is the car.

>> You know, they're not going to be doing

an awful lot to but particularly from

McLaren's point of view, it is still

overwhelmingly likely that one of his

drivers will win the championship. The

constructors is already in the bag. Um,

Max doesn't have a wingman essentially,

>> no to help. So, you know, the odds are

so stacked and also I think of the

remaining as we record this four races,

at least two of them are regarded as

very McLaren tracks.

>> Yeah. Um, and I think, you know, Max

needs to basically outp point them on at

all four circuits. And given his

performance um at the last race where he

was nowhere near front running pace, um

I think it's hard to see.

>> I um yeah, I don't see it actually. I

you know, it's not down to him. Um but

the the gap is just too large. What he

needs is another significant

um chunk. He needs to bite another

significant chunk out of that lead by

one of the one or both of the McLaren's

biggest.

>> He needs Oscar and and Lando to drive

into each other.

>> He does like they did. Well, certainly

um Oscar had a shocker in Texas, didn't

he? Uh well, and the following race

wasn't great either. But, you know, he

needs Max needs that sort of thing where

the two McLarens don't score and he he

wins and takes a massive chunk out of

that title that that that lead that

championship lead. Yes.

>> But

>> cuz if he gets 25 25 points and they get

none

>> Yeah. then it's

>> then everything changes

>> and then it's it's it's wide open, isn't

it? Um, short of that happening,

>> I don't see it. I I am baffled by Oscar.

I think it is something to do with the

car has shifted. You know, people talk

about maybe the pressures getting to him

or um he's not driving the way that he

was. He says he's driving exactly the

way he was. And at the start of the

season, he was metronomic. He was just

winning races. and his and his

reputation is of the man who doesn't

crack under pressure, you know,

particularly when, you know, Max is

coming up behind.

>> Orlando and Lando has always struggled

in that environment.

>> And Oscar seemed to cope.

>> Uh he his reputation is that of an

iceman

>> um who doesn't feel the same emotions

and vulnerabilities the rest of us do.

So it shouldn't be a factor, but maybe

that's all a front. Maybe underneath it,

he's a he's a gibbering wreck. I doubt

it.

>> I doubt it as well. I I think I think

it's something in the car that shifted.

But I mean, Norris last time out was

>> magnificent.

>> Just magnificent. And it's what what I

hope now, right? And I I don't really

say this I don't think I'm saying this

as a Brit. I think I'm saying this as a

Formula 1 fan. I would like to see

Norris now deliver four more of those

weekends so that he wins it emphatically

and we can look at him come the end of

the season and go, he actually really

earned that and he's a deserving

champion. um because it has been pretty

inconsistent from him throughout this

season. He's been magnificent at times

and just almost nowhere at other times.

So, I hope he now takes this

championship by the scruff and makes it

his own and we can all be satisfied that

he's the champion.

>> How much importance do you ascribe to

momentum? If if if you do, he's had a

lot of it

>> and he's got a lot behind him at the

moment. Um, so it's interesting and I

think there are other people who go,

"No, that's just nonsense. You're only

ever as good as your last race and you

know, we all they all start from scratch

every time the cars go out."

>> But there must be some wind in his

>> confidence is a fac I mean because

>> probably more with him than most

>> and clearly the class the cars should be

the same. Clearly they're both men of

you know approximately equal talent.

>> So what is the deciding factor and if

you're feeling better about and we all

know, don't we? um what a bit of

confidence can do uh or if you lack

confidence what that can do too and if

Oscar for any reason thinks that his car

isn't as quick as Lando's

mistakes will happen he'll get cheesed

off confidence will go

>> the thing is right I I think momentum is

a thing and it's probably it's more

confidence than than momentum but this

weekend in Brazil I I saw one forecast

last week it looks like it's going to be

a wet one and then what does it take for

your your weekend and your perhaps even

your championship battle to come

crumbling down. Getting on the wrong bit

of curb at the wrong time, spinning off

into it. It is the margins, particularly

on a white race, are so so fine.

>> And this far into the season when the

fight is this close, you can't be too

strategic about it. You can't just say,

"Okay, well, I'll come I'll be happy

with third and you know, let's say this

Orlando, and I'll be happy to let Max

and Oscar disappear because I'll make it

back at the next ones because

statistically the ones after that uh are

I think they're all Middle East, aren't

they?" Um,

>> it's Vegas between Vegas. Okay. Well,

Vegas is not going to be wet, is it?

Very unlikely to be. And the other two

aren't aren't likely to be wet.

>> Um, but you can't afford to do that.

>> No. because

>> suddenly you're not a point ahead,

you're a double-digit number of points

behind.

>> So you can't do that.

>> No.

>> Um

so you've just got to

throw it and hope it'll stick.

>> There's no doubt that the pressure is

ramping up now, particularly on the

McLaren drivers. And I I don't think it

matters how cool and calm you are. It's

a Formula 1 World Championship. You're

first. It's going to get to you for

>> both of them. Yeah.

>> Whereas Max

done that.

>> He knows what that's like.

>> Yeah. The pressure is not on him at all.

He's not feeling pressure.

>> He has no pressure. No, there's no

expectation.

>> No.

>> Um, you know, if he does it, it'll be

one of the greatest turnarounds of

Formul history. If he doesn't, it's ex

it's what everybody expects anyway.

>> He still had a good season and everyone

knows that his car certainly for the

first twothirds of the season wasn't

competitive with the McLarens. Certainly

is now.

>> Um,

>> what do you just on the Red Bull and the

turnaround, how much of it do you I mean

it is interesting and I know it's not

directly tracking it. Um, but after all

the shenanigans with Haunter and the

team, you know, while that's all going

on, the team loses its form and can't

and struggles to find it again and then

Christian gets booted out the team and

pretty soon afterwards they rediscover

their mojo. Coincidence?

>> I just never know. I just I mean, a team

principal,

it's he's not an engineer. He's not

leading the engineering team. It's the

engineering team that's made the car

faster.

>> Yeah. But I mean I can remember sitting

down with Mark Weber uh at a festival of

speed a couple of years ago. No year

last year actually I think

>> because it was all going all the

Christian stuff was going on then.

>> Um and he said having the best drivers

having the best car having the best team

is not enough.

>> It's all got to function perfectly.

>> Yeah. Okay. And if any one of those

components, however good they might be

in theory, starts to function at 98%

rather than 102%.

>> That's a significant difference. And if

there are people who are distracted,

um, you know, the chain of command is

being interrupted because people can't

have meetings with the people they need

to have meetings with because they're

off sorting out stuff. It [snorts] can

make a difference. And then suddenly,

and we saw this at McLaren, I mean,

remember Zack Brown saying to us that

the team of people um where did they

come? There was some world championship

recently where they came like not last,

but they came I don't know, eighth in

the constructors or something.

>> Yeah. They were nowhere for a long time.

>> Yeah. And then Zach comes and he he said

to us, he changed three people.

>> Three out of a thousand.

>> Three out of a thousand. And then

suddenly they're winning everything.

>> It's the same people.

>> It is amazing actually. So the

leadership really does make a

difference. Does it make it does it turn

around within two or three months? Maybe

it does. I could do. I can do.

Apparently, it happens in the game they

call football.

>> I'm sure. Well, it does. Yeah, it does.

So, um I mean it it reflects very well

on Laurel Mechi as the new guy, doesn't

it?

>> Absolutely.

>> It really does.

>> Or perhaps just really badly on

Christian.

>> I know. Yeah. Um but

>> probably probably both.

>> What I will say though is that Red Bull

have continued developing their car.

They have continued bringing new parts.

There was a big floor upgrade for Monza,

wasn't there? And then another floor

upgrade, I think, more recently. So

that's that's certainly a factor.

>> So why are they doing that when even now

the chances of them actually getting a

title out of it are quite remote?

Whereas if they'd spent all that time

and energy and presumably money

developing next year's car when there's

a new rules regime um and the fortunes

of not just next season but probably

quite a few seasons after that kind of

depend on it.

>> It's interesting, isn't it?

>> It's so easy. It's so tempting. Either

either they've already decided that next

year's car is going to be a basket case

or they think it's going to be so

utterly brilliant they need to spend,

you know, that that resource on it.

>> Who knows?

>> It is very interesting. It is very I'd

love to understand the logic.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh so who's your money on now? 10 quid.

Who you putting 10 quid on to win the

championship?

>> Who do I think will win it or who do I

want to win it?

>> Who do you think will?

>> I think Oscar will win it.

>> Do you Do you think he's going to come

roaring back?

>> No. I think he's going to nip it.

>> Do you? Yeah, I think I what I would

like for all the reasons I've talked

about on this podcast before, I would

like Lando to be champion,

>> but I think if there's going to be any

blinking to be done, I can't see it

being Oscar. And I think that people

have set too much store by the run of

recent form um and that he will when

push comes to shove,

he'll find a way. I think I think Lando

is gonna rise to the occasion.

>> Oh, I do. So, I hope you're right.

>> I think he is. I think he is. Let's wait

and see. [clears throat]

>> Eagle E types.

>> So, we spent a day last week. It was

great, actually, wasn't it? We were

>> It was It It looked like it was going to

be awful.

>> We were driving to the shoot location in

Wales, one of our favorite roads in

Wales. It was raining so hard the

photographer messaged me from the road

saying, "Can I turn around, please?"

[laughter]

And then we get to the road only to

discover

>> Yeah.

>> it's shut. Larut Baret,

>> but

>> but we had a word.

>> Yeah.

>> And what we discovered was that the road

the the road was shut right at its other

end about 10 miles away.

>> Uh and the B said, "As long as you don't

go right to the other end, you just stay

on the road. Can't see it being a

problem." And so we had basically the

best road in South Wales to ourselves

for the day. And after about 10:00 a.m.,

the sun came out and the roads dried

quickly.

>> And later this week, you'll see the

results on the Intercooler website and

app.

>> So Andrew is going to write this one and

he's going to voice it. So if you're a

TI subscriber, you'll be able to read it

or listen to that story in a couple of

days. Um the the two cars were a couple

of Eagle E types. Um two very different

cars.

>> That's why we did it.

>> Yeah. Uh we wanted to I'm sure everybody

knows or have heard of Eagle Eypies. It

was um a company that Henry Pierman

founded I think in 1981

um to you know the word resto mod didn't

exist 44 years ago but that's what it

was. And you know they create these

incredible machines two of which we've

just driven but they also just nicely

upgrade. So, we have a a friend and

colleague who has an Eype which has had

a bit of suspension, the brakes sorted

out. I think it might have a 5-speed

gearbox in it. It's just been night

nicely and thoughtfully gone through and

updated.

>> But it's not a million quid special, is

it?

>> It's not a million quid special. And if

you look at it, you couldn't tell it

from a standard car.

>> No.

>> Um, the two that we had were million

quid specials. Um and and we got them

together because they represent the sort

of the ying and the yang of the eagle

proposition. So one the low drag coupe

uh is the grand tourer very longlegged

uh engine tuned primarily for torque

south of France over the Alps

>> just that sort of thing. Whereas the

other one, the lightweight GTR, is let's

see how light we can make an E type.

>> Let's see how mad an engine we can put

in an E type. Um, and let's see how much

fun we can have within

>> the bounds of what you want to use on a

public road. This is not a racing car.

>> No.

>> Um, and it's a it's it's one of those

things that Eagle do. It's a one-off

commission for an owner who incredibly

kindly not only allowed us to drive it,

was extremely enthusiastic about us

driving it. Uh, and you know, there may

well be, particularly after they read

what um people write about it, um, other

requests for similar sorts of things.

And, you know, I'm sure the Eagle will

do that, but at the moment, it's a one

of one. And it's it's it's a wonderful

car in its own right, but it's also a

study on just how far you can go without

spoiling the essential proposition and

making a completely impractical

undrivable car because it is neither of

those things.

>> And yeah, it was just I can remember

towards the end of the day you saying to

me, we're not going to drive better cars

than the seats this year.

>> No, no, we won't. That's it.

[clears throat] That's it. And

particularly with that road basically to

ourselves.

>> Yeah.

>> God, that's just days like that just

don't happen often. Um it was it was one

to remember. I can't wait to see the

photos and read the story. Um but I I

want to try and I'm sure you're right

about this, but I want to understand the

background of the E type, the low drag,

sorry, the low drag GT Eagle Eype. Um

because the Jaguar sort of built a few

of them in period. Is that right?

>> So Okay. Okay, so the EAC comes out in

1961. Um, and some inevitably people

wanted to go racing with it. Um, the car

wasn't very well suited to racing. Uh,

because you know the A, it was a road

car, b it had a steel body. Um, and all

sorts of things that you wouldn't do if

you're making a racing car, they did

with that car. And so they started to

make um for customers, you know, so they

made a series of was it 16 or 18

lightweight Eypes which were these

incredible cars and Jaguar did some

recreations of them recently. Well, that

recently about what was it? It was about

10 years ago now. Um but the lightweight

E type was a pure racing Eype.

>> Yeah, I drove one of the recreations.

Exactly.

>> Um so aluminium body, 5-speed gearbox,

um very light. um what they call a wide

angled engine um which is an engine they

actually developed for the DT type um

but a pure racing engine. I think some

of them had Lucas fuel injection, alloy

block uh all this sort of stuff uh which

you'd never have found on the road cars.

Um now actually to be honest in period

um because they never raced as a sort of

works team um they weren't as

competitive against things like well

particularly the Ferrari 250 GTO

>> um which was a what they mean that

wasn't a 250 GT whatever Ferrari might

have said at the time was not a modified

road car was a pure racing car um and I

don't think I don't think a lightweight

E type ever won a really significant

race but If you look at them now and

they are utterly gorgeous and they sound

utterly gorgeous and in addition to that

they made this thing called a low drag

coupe. I think they made it for a driver

called Dick Pro. Might be wrong about

that. Um which was exactly what it said.

One of the problems that the um road

Eype had and I I have some experience

with this because I know what it's like

um is that their their shape, however

beautiful is almost the perfect design

for generating rear end lift. Uh, and so

if you get a normal E type and with with

a hot engine in it and drive it in a

straight line as fast as it will go, it

can get quite it can get quite um

interesting.

And you know, a low drag coupe was a

Yeah, it was sort of, you know, part of

the way to a lightweight car, very I

mean, incredibly beautiful body. And so

the Log Drag GT, which is what one of

the cars that we drove up there, is

Eagle's tribute to that car. And if you

look at them, they're not the same, but

they are very, very similar. If you look

at the one of the original low drag and

um the GTR is a sort of tribute to um to

the lightweight E types. And you can

tell, well, they look very different

actually, but you can tell they're

lightweights because they've got um roof

vents for letting air out of the cabin.

And they've got a vent on the boot,

which is uh you look at think, well,

what's that there for? It's actually to

vent air out of the rear from the rear

brakes. inboard rear brakes. Um, so they

get quite hot and that was a particular

problem. So they wanted to get rid of

the heat so they did that.

>> Um, and yeah, and these cars they were

they were lovely. Uh, they raced at Lore

a lot, but they were never that

successful.

>> Um, so yeah, that's really the story of

how they came about. They were Jaguar's

interpretation of what a racing E type

would be. But because Jaguar didn't have

a racing team in the way that they had

had in the 50s when they're racing the C

types and the DT types, uh they never

got as fully behind them. Uh they just

sold them to customers and privateeers

went racing and we know what happens

when um private teams go racing against

factory teams.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. um factory teams tend to do rather

better and you know and Ferrari wouldn't

have had any works 250 GTOs but they

would had they would have had teams big

teams like Marinella concessionaires and

the North American racing team Scadira

Filipineti um the Belgian what are they

called the Kiri National Belge or Auri

Francon as they sometimes were called

and these would be heavily works backed

teams very very heavily supported from

the factory they were essentially Enzo's

representatives on the racetrack in

those categories

um and the types had nothing like that.

So,

>> the um the the low drag is I think the

most beautiful car I've seen on the

road. [laughter]

>> I really do. I really do. The moment I

saw photos of it a few years ago, I just

thought that is gorgeous. And seeing it

in person, seeing it being driven on the

road, driving on the road,

>> I still think it's the most beautiful

car. It makes you realize you some

people I think Ian Calmer said it that

yeah he loves the E type but he he'd be

the first to say it's not perfect and

then you look at the low drag and you

actually realize that however gorgeous

the original is it's not beyond

improvement.

>> Mhm.

>> Um I took a just a profile picture of it

and I think certainly

>> certainly the profile of that car is

it's the sort of picture of a car you

could show to anyone who had no interest

in cars whatsoever. none at all. Like my

wife

>> and I showed her that and she just went,

"Wow."

>> Yeah, you would. You would. And they are

these Eagles. They are beautifully

finished, beautifully built. Um I'm not

going to give away give away anything

about what they like to drive, but you

can imagine.

>> Sorry. Sorry about that. They're not

rubbish. I think we I think

>> we say that. Um I think when you first

wrote about an eagle several years ago

for us, I think you said they build very

very few. A couple a year. Well, I mean

a couple of each sort.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. But I mean I know that one of the

problem Eagle did run into a problem a

few years back because their waiting

list I think it got to six years.

>> Um

>> it's great to have a waiting list but

too long doesn't

>> too long because people just get cheesed

off and go and buy other stuff instead.

Um so the good news is now if you want

an Eagle um a low drag coupe or a

lightweight GTR you can have it in well

probably 2029 now. [snorts]

Um,

>> yeah.

>> Yeah. Then they're not sure the stuff to

do, but you then if you look at them and

you look at the attention to detail,

>> I mean, the the lightweight GTR, I mean,

the efforts they went to. Did you notice

that the low drag had those, you know,

those sort of twin air horns and then it

makes a two-turn noise when you press

the button in the middle of the steering

wheel.

>> Okay.

>> And you do the same in the GTR and

there's only one,

>> right?

>> So, they've taken away a horn to make

the car a bit lighter.

>> Yeah. And the materials they're using,

um, this is a new type with carbon

ceramic brakes. It's got magnesium sump,

magnesium for the gearbox casing. Uh,

the gear lever is titanium. It's got

titanium conrods in it. I mean, all

through the car,

>> they have just saved saved save weight.

>> Um, so a normal E-ype, I think, is about

1,250 kilos, which in modern terms is

light, really light. Um, and before you

put fuel in it, the lightweight GTR is,

I think, 930.

>> That light.

>> 930. Yeah. Um, and the last Lotus Elise

weighed more than that.

>> Yeah.

>> So, this is, you know, and last had a

1.8 liter engine. This has a 4.7 L

engine in it

>> and it's lighter than an Elise. I don't

think that's quite fair, actually,

because I suspect I'm talking about a

dry weight and the Lotus was a curb

weight, but even so, you get the idea.

It's it's there or thereabouts. You

know, the idea was that with that car

was they wanted to get it under a ton to

see if it could be done. And the

the extraordinary thing about it is it

doesn't feel, you know, stripped out

paired to the bone. A racing car for the

road. It's beautifully. It's got air

conditioning.

>> Yeah. And it's comfortable.

>> And it's comfortable. Yeah.

>> And it still weighs 930.

>> There got to be some lessons. I guess

the problem is is that it's a million

quid. Yeah. Because otherwise you could

just say to the car manufacturers,

modern car manufacturers, just just go

and have a look at this.

>> Get weight out of these cars.

>> And they would just go,

>> "Yes, it's got magnesium, titanium,

unobtanium, and all the other kinds of

[clears throat]

>> Yeah. Okay, fair enough.

>> But it was it was a brilliant day. Um,

and we we just felt very lucky, didn't

we? A to just locked into an essentially

closed road which we could use for

ourselves. But also, I think that there

was there are lessons to be learned. I'm

afraid that, you know, cars like that,

we don't have enormous amounts of grip.

And although they're really quick,

they're not stupidly quick.

>> They're not scary quick. No.

>> Um, and and we I know this is a thing we

return to again and again and again, but

at no stage on that road in those cars

did either of us ever go, "Oh, it's

great, but if only there was another 500

horsepower or 100 horsepower or

horsepower." Yeah, no,

>> it's just not a thought process you

have.

>> And then you look at the million quid,

you think, well, yeah, it's a million

quid. But even in the context of those

[snorts] sorts of cars when Ferrari

want3 £3 million

>> Yeah.

>> for an F80 and you know that if you

turned up outside the hotel de Perry in

>> Monte Carlo in your low drag GT, they'd

be shoveling Ferraris out the way. they

would

>> to make sure you got to part front and

center.

>> Yeah, no question.

>> Just saying it.

>> No question. Um, so that story is coming

out in a few days. It's going to be a

good one. Um, and if that isn't a good

enough reason to subscribe. Let me give

you a few others. Um, it's the

Intercooler is the world's only, we

think, ad free online car magazine.

>> It is.

>> Um, we think it's the best one as well,

even if it is the only one. Um, and for

those of you who just don't have the

time or the inclination to read, you can

now listen to everything that we

produce. Um, and actually on that front

that we are going to have some news

quite soon. Not just yet, Andrew, but we

do have a new product at the bit.

>> Yeah. A new product coming for those who

really just want to listen

>> and a aimed aimed at you got lot the

podcast audience.

>> Yeah, it is. Um, and if you aren't yet

subscribed, you there'll be a link in

the description or in the show notes

underneath. And if you use coupon code

pod 20 um and you choose an annual

subscription, a you'll get a 30-day free

trial and b you'll get 20% off for the

first year. Um every every single month

we give a supernatural car care kit away

to a paying TI subscriber. Supernatural

um is the car care company that we've

been working with for a few months now.

We're working with them all throughout

this year. next. Um, they produce really

good, high quality car key car cleaning

kit, excuse me. And every single month,

we give away a kit worth £125.

Uh, if you don't happen to be one of the

lucky winners, you can um still benefit

from this partnership by using coupon

code TI10 for a 10% discount at

supernaturalcarcare.com.

Um, my Audi A6 Avant Ron Quattro Edition

one.

[gasps]

>> I'm um,

>> what what is edition one about? Is there

going to be an addition two?

>> No, but they all manufacturers do this

now. It seems they they bang edition one

on the first few cars out the the door

and whack I don't know five 10 grand on

the asking price and people seem to buy

them. But if you say something is a

first edition, that does rather imply

there's going to be a second.

>> Is it? So, so when I say do that, have

they made a limited number of edition

ones? I

>> I don't know actually. I don't know.

Maybe they have.

>> I bet they haven't.

>> Who knows? Um, but you do see that

happen quite a lot these days.

>> Um, and

so I mean there's so much that I could

say about this car. I'm writing about it

on the app and website. So, I just want

to talk a little bit for now about

the everyday family car,

>> right? Because

>> weirdly, I actually haven't run that

many of these sorts of cars. We have a

BMW 3 series at home. That is the family

car. So, I'm very familiar with that.

But in terms of the long-termers that

I've run for us and for other magazines

and in terms of the cars that I've owned

personally,

generally they're sporty cars

>> or performance cars of some stripe. And

this Audi A6, it it's fast cuz it's a

modern electric car. They they all are

fast really, but it's not a performance

car.

>> It's really I would almost call it a

working car. Um because that's what it

does. It's it's a tool, right? It's not

something that you buy. It's not an

enthusiast car by any means.

And normally I wouldn't be that drawn to

this sort of car because my passion for

cars is in is elsewhere. You know, it's

about cars that are great to drive or

beautiful to look at, interestingly

engineered, whatever it is. But and

perhaps it's fatherhood that's the

difference here. When you have a family

in particular, suddenly the boring,

unremarkable, but safe, reliable,

comfortable, spacious family car,

it becomes as welcome a presence in your

household as something sporty that you

might really love.

>> Yeah. Because it's the difference

between wanting something and needing

something. M

>> and your instinct to protect your family

is always going to be stronger than your

instinct to get out and and have a ball

in some piece of, you know, lightweight

fun machinery.

>> So to know that there's a car on the

drive that is going to get my family

safely and comfortably where they need

to be and all our stuff. Um it's it's

actually a very very comforting thought.

It's a reassuring thought.

>> What I would say is you do not need it.

So, this car speced up, it's the

addition one, as I said, it's a quattro,

which means it's one of the most

powerful ones available, and it's got a

few expensive options on it. So, it's a

£92,000 car.

>> You don't need to spend £92,000 to get a

really good working family car.

>> No. And and so often, is it not the case

that so often a lot of this stuff gets

in the way? So, I'm running uh as

listeners will probably know, I'm

running a Range Rover at the moment,

which is an autobiography, £150,000

worth of Range Rover.

>> Yeah. And did we talk about this on a

previous podcast, the diesel that I'd

also been in?

>> Uh, you wrote about it. I'm not sure

you've spoken about it.

>> Okay. So, I also, just for the sake of

comparison, borrowed a diesel one, which

was a much lower specification.

I preferred the plug-in hybrid

powertrain, but in terms of the spec, I

much prefer the lower spec car to my

car. Much it had seats that folded

completely flat,

>> and it was actually a

>> uh it was a long wheel base. It was a

seven-seater and it's like a van in the

back. Whereas mine, I think there's less

usable space in the back of my Range

Rover than there is in the back of our

family Golf,

>> which is nuts.

>> Which is nuts.

>> That is ludicrous.

>> And you sit in the back of it and it's

not like it's uncomfortable.

>> And it's got seven seats rather than

four.

>> Um, and and there are all these optional

goodies on it. I mean, some I love like

it's got a top of the range Meridian

sound system, which is amazing, but

there's so much electric stuff in there.

And I look at this stuff and I don't

think, oh gosh, what a convenience

factor. I think that's just one more

motor to go wrong.

>> Um,

>> and I think if I went through the spec

of that car, I could knock, it's 150

grand car. A base Range Rover is like a

100. I reckon I could knock

>> half the difference off that car and end

up not with something which was as good,

but something I actually preferred.

>> Yeah, I can see that. I can see that.

>> Um, because I mean some people do want

their Range Rover to be essentially a

jackup limousine, don't they? But you

probably want it to be where you live

and the way you use it, you want it to

be more of a working vehicle.

>> Completely.

>> Yeah. So, um, yeah. I mean, this Audi,

it it does the working vehicle thing

very, very well. But honestly, I think

you could get most of most of those

virtues and attributes in a 10 15 grand

pat.

>> Yeah.

>> And particularly with young kids who

kick the crap out of cars, I'm learning,

and smear all sorts into them. It's

probably better if it is a 10 or 15

grand pat, isn't it? Yes. I I think

sadly pass out estate is the answer to

an awful lot of questions.

>> It really is.

>> Yeah. Old pass out of state.

>> Yeah.

>> Um can I talk a just a tiny two minutes

on another car I've driven.

>> Go on.

>> Which isn't really a TI car, but it

interested me.

>> Mhm.

>> I've driven a thing called a DS number

eight.

>> Uhhuh.

>> So this is we know where DS got the name

from. It was from the Citroen DS of the

1950s and 60s and 70s. Um, and DS is

meant to be deus as in god or was it

goddess? Don't know. Anyway, u and DS uh

Citroen or PSA as it was at the time of

Stalantis as it is now launched this new

car brand in the same way that say

launched Cupra as a standalone thing.

And frankly, it hasn't done anything

interesting or do you remember the DS

number three racing which had all the

writing on the road?

>> Oh yeah, I do. Yeah.

>> Okay. That was quite that was almost

interesting but nothing else it's done

has been of any interest to me at all.

Um, and until this number eight thing

turned up, which I only drove briefly,

uh, back end of last week. Um, so I'm

not going to, uh, give you a detailed

road test of it, um, because I don't

really feel that I have spent enough

time in the car, but this is their

attempt to sort of recapture their old

glories. A proper luxury car.

>> Yeah, the big French car.

>> The big French car. And I think I think

frankly, why have big French cars never

worked almost since the original DS?

It's probably a podcast in itself. Uh,

and this the thing about this car is it

nearly does. [laughter]

It nearly does work because

it does ride really well.

>> Job one.

>> Job one. It's not quite S-Class. It's

not quite Range Rover, but it's

credible. It's very credible.

Um, they have try tried quite hard to

create a really interesting interior. To

me, it's a bit overstyized, but I think

that about most cars.

But the problem it has is it just gets

tripped up by the thing that trips up so

many modern cars. And here is another

podcast topic, which we'll get to

another day. um it has to share its

platform with a load of other stuff

which aren't trying to do which aren't

trying to do the same job

>> and and a load of um

parts bin. So,

>> you know, the instrument panel, some of

the switch gear, it does look very

Citroeny

>> and so the illusion gets shattered and

suddenly you realize you're not in a,

you know, drive an original Citroen DS

and everything around it just feels

bespoke and unique and extraordinary.

>> And for all that it does well, and there

are some things it does really quite

well,

>> you can't escape the idea of it being a

tricked up Citroen, at which stage the

illusion is shattered. Um, and I mean I

I wish it well because I was pleasantly

surprised by it, but are people really

gonna get out of their Audi's and their

Mercedes and their BMWs and their Range

Rovers into that? I Because it's like I

think the range spans like 50 to£65,000.

So, it's quite expensive.

>> Is it Is it really for French

bureaucrats and business leaders?

>> Yeah. Well, it possibly is. At which

stage they'll sell 300. It it'll be

like, you know, it'll be like the

Velcatis or the Avon team or the, you

know, it will, you know, it might do

well in in a very small niche in its

home country,

>> but this is not going to be the car that

establishes DS as a credible presence on

the world stage or even the European

stage. I can't see it happening. And

it's a shame because it does get a lot

of things right. One thing it gets

horribly wrong um was you put your foot

down, you know, we always used to winge

about electric cars. You put your foot

down and then suddenly you get you go

from nothing to everything in the blink

of an eye and you're vomiting and

feeling horrible and your children are

screaming. This does the reverse.

>> Well, it's just not there's not

>> Put your foot down and really very

little happens and after about a second

it goes, "Oh Okay, off you go."

>> Oh, that's so strange.

>> You're trying to overtake something.

>> That's so strange.

>> Yeah.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. Anyway, so I only want to do two

minutes on that and and it occurred to

me as we were recording this podcast.

There's not something that we planned to

talk about before, but I just thought

you were talking about your car. I just

thought, have I driven anything

interesting? And I have.

>> There you go. Um, there's one last thing

I want to talk about. Um, Jensen Button,

>> person, not thing.

>> Sorry, Jensen.

>> Who who will race as a professional

full-time racing driver one last time

this weekend. Yes.

>> At the 8 hours of Bahrain.

>> Yes.

>> Um, so for the last couple of seasons,

he's been racing a Cadillac. Well, he's

been racing with team JOT, a Cadillac

this season. It was the Porsche last

season. So, a topsp spec, you know,

lemon hypercar.

>> He's 45 now. Um, he obviously the 2009

F1 champion. I think that 2009 season is

one of F1's greatest ever tales. It's a

brilliant story. You be familiar with

it.

>> You you've probably seen the film.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's um it's an

amazing story. So Jensen won 15 Grand

Prix. Um, and he's since retiring at the

end of 2016, although he did do Monaco

in 2017 as a one-off. Um, he's raced

everything.

>> He's raced Japanese Super GT. He's raced

GT3, Rally Cross, Extreme, NASCAR,

>> historic,

>> lots of historic. Um, he's also raced uh

obviously hypercars. He's raced at Lemon

four times with a best of seventh, which

just shows how hard it is to win there,

>> you know. He's he's always been part of

fantastic driver lineups with a great

car and he's never done better than

seventh, which is it's just so hard to

even get on the podium at that place.

>> But what but what I love about him, he's

he's not one of these guys um who, you

know, completes their final Formula 1

race and then walks away because to them

anything else is just pointless. Yeah,

>> because you've been to the top and why

would you go back down again? He is a

man who clearly just loves racing.

>> Yeah,

>> I really admire that. I mean, I do

understand I don't judge people for

walking away because I think I've said

before on this podcast, there are many

people who do Formula 1 not because they

particularly love cars, but because they

love winning and the car is just the

means by which they do that.

>> Um, and once once they won the most

important thing you can win, then what

be the point of continuing? He just

obviously loves it.

>> He does. I just want to talk about his

probably his greatest ever Formula 1

race.

>> Would that be Canada 2011?

>> Well done. Um, so this was an amazing

race, wet to dry. It lasted over 4

hours. Um, with a almost 2hour red flag

interruption for the rain in the middle.

So, it's the longest Formula 1 race in

history. Um,

we'll we'll discuss the circumstances,

but Jensen Button's winning average

speed because of those stoppages was 46

miles per hour,

>> which makes it the slowest F1 race in

history.

>> Yeah, I'm sure.

>> Must do. Well, the previous record was

there was uh there was a Monaco in 1972,

Jean Pierre Bells won, and that was in

the early 60 mph, maybe late 50. Yeah.

>> But I've never heard anything in the

40s. Not even in the not even right at

the very early days of the Formula 1

World Championship. Never got anywhere

near that.

>> 46 miles per hour. So, uh, Jensen,

he he had two punctures. Um, he went

through the pits six times. At least one

of those was a penalty. He had contact

with Lewis Hamilton, Lewis Hamilton, his

teammate, and Alonso and Delar Roa. He

ran last, I think, twice,

but he took the lead on the last lap and

won. Um, and if you remember, he

overtook Sebastian Vettle when Vettle

was leading. Um, and he made a mistake

on the very last lap. The track was

almost dry, or certainly there was a dry

line. Vettle just ran a little bit wide,

perhaps under Jensen Buns, under

pressure from Button.

>> Um, and he his car snapped. He ran wide

and Jensen was able to nick nip through

and go ahead and win the race.

And well, a it was an amazing race from

Jensen. Such a dramatic race uh for him,

you know, so much going on. Um and he

actually is the master. He was the

master in those wet to dry conditions,

>> marginal conditions. He was in his era,

he was the best.

>> His judgment as to when to switch from

wet to dry or dry to wet tires was

impeccable. But also, he just had a

feel, just had a touch in those in those

in those difficult conditions. He was so

good.

But I think one of the most profound

things about that win in 2011, remember

this is the height of the Sebastian

Vettle era, well he was the reigning

champion from 2010 and um he seemingly

could do no wrong at that time. And yet

he made that mistake and I think

everyone just looked at that and just

thought, "Oh my, actually this kid is

human."

>> Yes.

>> It was the it was the first sort of

crack in his armor that we all saw.

>> Yes. Um, and we realized that he was

fallible after all.

>> Yeah.

>> Um,

>> not the last.

>> Not the last. No, but actually it was it

was absolutely Jensen Button's day that.

So, he he's retiring because um he just

wants to spend more time with his young

family.

>> He will still race historic. He said,

"I've got classic cars I love to race."

And for me, that's exciting because it's

mine, a car that I own, and I love the

mechanical aspect. It's very different

to the cars I race in WEC and F1. you're

really just connected. You're really

connected to it, which I love. Having to

heel and toe, getting the gear shift

just right, no arrow. It's all

mechanical. So, that really is someone

who just loves driving.

>> Can I Well, a few things about Jensen.

Um, firstly, I think that he had and

I've always said I so admire drivers,

not just for how fast they can drive a

car, but how they conduct themselves.

You remember all those years with those

Honda engines?

>> Yeah. Um, and he hardly I think there

may have been one time when the

frustration got a bit too much for him,

but he was so loyal.

>> Um, and so much just part of the team

uh, and doing all that sort of stuff. I

really admired that. I also, and I said

this on the podcast before, I can

remember going to Goodwood and I had a

job at the Festival of Speed going

around interviewing drivers and said,

"What's the most impressive thing you

saw this weekend?" And Sterling said,

"Oh, it was Jensen easily." And I went,

"Well, I couldn't remember what Jensen

ridden." And I said, "Well, what what

did he do?" And he said, "We all went up

to the top of the hill." Um, and we all

got out of our cars and we were talking

and J got out of his car instead of

talking to all his mates, he went over

to the fans and spent the entire time I

think there was a someone had crashed on

the hill, so they're out there for a

long time and he spent the entire time

just talking to fans.

>> Yeah.

>> And Sterling just thought that was so

impressive. Uh I also thought that

deciding to go to McLaren when Lewis

Hamilton was there.

>> We all thought he was nuts. You know,

he'd won his world championship. He, you

know, he should just, you know, accept

that that had happened and be very happy

with that. But why go and put yourself

next to the best person, possibly the

best driver that's ever been? And he did

it. And okay, he never beat Lewis to a

championship, but he acquitted himself

extremely well. And I thought that was

such a gutsy decision.

Um, and he always just seemed like a

really nice guy.

>> He does seem like a good guy and he's

brilliant on Sky F1's um, punditry team.

>> Yes,

>> he just seems like a good

>> and if Jason you find yourself with a

bit more time in your hands these days,

>> come on the podcast.

>> Yeah. Um, well, listen, let's let's wrap

this one up. Um, I will just remind you

all to subscribe to the YouTube channel

if you're watching or just follow the

show on whichever podcast app you're

using. Um, that really helps us. It just

means that we find new listeners which

clearly is a very very good thing for us

but it also means that you won't ever

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in return we'll be back next week and we

will see you

Why boring cars can be as great to own as special ones #287

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