Automotive Legend Peter Brock!

Hey, Stacy David here with the Tales of the Gearhead podcast. Now this is a

podcast about everything automotive, everything mechanical. You're gonna get

advice, you're gonna get ideas, you're gonna hear guests, you're gonna hear

people that are just like you. Everything is gonna be wrapped around the

automotive lifestyle so we know you're gonna love it. Today's podcast is brought

to you by Holly Performance Parts and Woodward Fabrication. Alright, let's get

it rolling.

Alright, we have a special guest here today on the podcast. I have an absolute

automotive legend here and somebody from that magic era of racing and car

design. I have Peter Brock here and if you're not familiar with Peter, he was

instrumental in the second-gen Corvette design. Obviously the Shelby Daytona

Coupe and he is the the namesake behind BRE Racing and if you guys ever saw any

of those 240 Z's and 510 Sedans, you know Peter Brock's work. Peter, welcome to the

podcast man. Stacy, what an honor to be on the show. I'm really really stoked to be

here with you. Of course I'm here in town for the Zcar convention. You know, let's

talk about that. We're in here for Zcon. Yeah. A lot of people don't realize how

instrumental you are for introducing the 240 Z to the American public. So my

first question to you is with through BRE Racing, do you think the 240 Z would

have been as popular as it was if it wasn't for your success on the racetrack?

Well, I'm sure that we helped on it but the car itself is such a beautiful

design. It was so successful in the American market. Price-wise availability,

styling. It was hard not to be popular with the general public but as far as the

race car goes, I don't think it would have been nearly as successful without

the development that we did at BRE. Now, BRE is still around. People can still buy

parts for their Z cars, right? Right, yeah. We still make a few things on it. We don't

run the full development shop that we used to have because we're just too

busy building Aeroval trailers today. Yes. Actually, I want to talk to you about

that here in a minute too because that's the trailer that folds up. No,

it's a full aerodynamic super lightweight trailer. It's the big advantage, of

course, is that in towing it, it's so light and aerodynamic that you hardly even

know it's behind you and you can't appreciate how good it is really until

you've towed a conventional trailer. Conventional trailers, of course, are

designed to hold as many square boxes as possible. Yeah, yeah. But if you looked

at that from a design point of carrying automobiles, you'd be carrying all this

extra space up in the corners that you don't need. So the whole background of

the Aeroval trailer is to utilize the space as best as possible and reduce the

frontal area. So if people want to find out more about those trailers, where do

they go? You go to Aeroval on online. Aeroval. Yeah. Just look up trailers,

you know, automobile trailers, the Aeroval trailers, but. Okay. And these are car

hauler trailers, correct? Just car haulers, yeah. All right. Now, do you do

enclosed and open trailers? We make five different sizes. You know, I started

out simply making one for myself and it was immediately so popular that we had

to build a few more and then people wanted them for bigger cars, longer

cars and then guys from the rods that, you know, they had 44 coops or old

model A's wanted. So then we made a taller model as well. So by combining the

three links and the different highs, we've got five different models

available. Yeah. Now, if somebody looks into Peter Brock a little bit, they

understand you're all about aerodynamics. Yes. You from the cars, clear

back to the stingray. Have you always been into that? What is it about body

shape and aerodynamics that just always captured you? What is it? Well, the

first thing you've got to understand is as you double the speed on any shape

going through the air, the drag goes up by the square. Okay. You know, so you

can see it instantly if you're interested in anything that with of higher

speed or more efficiency that you're going to get the air to flow over that

shape as efficiently as possible. So it's the cheapest horsepower you can get if

you just think about what things you're going to look like. I think one of the

biggest things too and one thing that really makes your design work stand

out. A lot of people design from aesthetics. In other words, if they think

it looks aerodynamic, they think it is and that's not necessarily the case as

in the case of the Shelby Daytona Coupe. All of that is again, it's let's call

it the dogmob design because that all came from what the French did originally

in the 1930s. You know, taking the original shape of a fish or a raindrop or

anything considering looking at that thing you think from an engineering

standpoint, that would be the most efficient shape for an automobile. But

you can't apply that particular area and shape to an automobile because it just

doesn't work. An automobile would end up being, you know, 10 foot longer than it

should be. Yeah. So the minute that you try to compromise that you lose all the

advantage of trying to try to make this sort of graceful looking shape. And

there are other ways to solve that that don't look as good, but work far better.

Yeah. Okay. So when you look back, obviously the Zcar thing and BRE racing

was very popular. You had a lot of milestones like that. When you kind of

look at that, what thing are you kind of most proud of that you've kind of

achieved? When you look back on it, is there one thing that you're like, gosh,

I was sure. I'm just really happy I was involved with that. Well, I think the

thing that I'm most proud of is working with all the guys that helped me build

all this stuff. And looking back on it, all I see is the compromises that I had

to make during those periods of time. Wow. Everything that's been done has

never been done as much as I'd like to have it done. So I'm never really happy

with it. I'm very proud of the things that have been done. But I know how much

better each one of them could have been done if there hadn't been either

resistance or management standpoint or finances or disbelief in what was going

on. So everything could have been better. That is an amazing statement. It's hard

to imagine because of the amount of success that you did have with your

designs. What could have been? Now, do you think that's just part of maybe you

being a perfectionist or because obviously that's part of it? Well, I

think everything, if you try to be a perfectionist all the time, you hurt

yourself. You've just got to get stuff done and out on the road and prove it.

And then you can keep developing. And that's a far more successful way than

trying to do it all at once and then come out and then put it on the road and

realize that there's a lot more that could be done. So by doing stuff in

stages, it's faster and cheaper and more successful. Yeah. When you're at places

like ZCon or at some of these, because I know you do a lot of the Shelby or the

Cobra events and things like that. When you're out there at those events and you

see people building replicas of cars that you designed, how does that make you

feel? Oh, I'm always very, very honored that people would recognize where

those particular forms or shapes show up in automotive history. And I think that

those two cars have definitely got a spot. And I'm very, very proud of that.

And then I've got to look back and say, how did that occur? Like the

split window Corvette could never have happened without Bill Mitchell.

Yeah, that is Bill Mitchell's car. He directed the design. I drew it for him,

do exactly what he wanted. He knew what he wanted. But even when I tried to defer

a little bit from that, Bill was exactly pointing it back on the what he wanted

on it. So I can't claim that design totally on my own. The overall concept is

Bill Mitchell's completely. And I just did the refinement for him.

Yeah. Now the Shelby Daytona Coupe, though, that was your design, correct?

Completely, absolutely. Every line on it, every idea on it was... But there again,

because of the resistance in terms of finances and most important time just

to get it done, there was so much more that could have been done. And then the

fact that no more development would have been allowed on the car because they

just, the car, the attitude at Shelby's once we had the car going fast enough

was like, we're not going to spend another dime on it. It's already fast enough.

We're not going to do any more development. I said, the car can be so much better.

Let's do this. Let's do that. And they said, we don't have time to do it.

We're winning with it. Leave it alone. If it's good enough for today, it's good

enough for tomorrow. Wow. So he was already on to other stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever thought about doing your own cars, your own BRE cars?

Not completely because I realized, having been in the industry, what it takes to do that,

I would better stick to what I do best as overall

concept and form with it and work with great engineers. I mean, I've worked with so many

good engineers and realized what they can contribute that I don't have because I don't

have that background. And they are as great an artist. You don't appreciate it because it's all

underneath the skin, but working with the great designers like Trevor Harris,

who I've got incredible respect for. It has done so much good stuff. Again, it takes a combination

of very tight people that all in the same goals to make something good.

Just like a band. I'd love to.

When you look at your life, a lot of people don't realize what a great driver that you were.

They look at you, they see you're a designer and this and that. They don't realize that you were

a really good race driver. Did you ever want to do that more or did Carol just not let you do it?

Because you taught the driving school for Carol for a while, correct?

Everything that I learned was from Ken Miles, believe me.

And that's like learning to play guitar from Jimi Hendrix.

I mean, it couldn't have been any better. But from the time that I got interested in cars and

that was working at a small shop in Sausalito when I was 12 and 13 years old and saw my first

race car fabricated from scratch and then taking a ride in that car and understanding that you

don't steer with the steering wheel, you steer with the throttle. That was probably the most

life-changing moment I've ever had. I always wanted to be part of that and want to be a race driver.

But I just got to the point in my life that I had to either make a joint to be a race driver

or team manager and to run the organization. And there are lots of good guys out there

that especially like John Morton that I ran into at the Shelby Driving School that when I put John

on the car, I mean, there was just nobody out there better. And not only was he a tremendously

skilled driver, but it was being a fabricator himself. He had a great sensitivity for machinery

and took care of stuff. So when the car came in at the end of two and a half, three hours,

I mean, it's still in very, very good shape. A lot of drivers out there by the time the car is

finished, the car is finished. You have to rebuild it completely. So that's where a great,

great driver like Ken Miles or John Morton shows up. Is there sensitivity to the machinery?

Yeah. People like to pigeonhole people into one situation, you know, how they know you. So they

look at you and they think, okay, so he's a sports car guy or he's a race car guy and they

don't realize you're also a hot rod guy. That's kind of your background.

Oh, it's all Southern California. That's where it came from, you know.

Because didn't you win the Oakland Roadster Show with the Ford Lack or whatever it was?

Yeah. Tell me, what was that? Ford with the Cadillac motor in it?

Yeah, it was the 46 Ford. I bought it sort of as a half-completed automobile and it was a

really beautifully done custom job. You know, it'd been chopped, it'd been channeled, it'd been

sectioned. But I continued on with the car and put one of the first overhead valve engines in

that people that were putting in. That was a Cadillac engine. I had a 54 Caddy engine in it,

36 lapel gearbox and stuff. So it was still fast, but it was a good looking car. So that was the

sort of combination. I couldn't see myself having a Ferrari or anything like that.

Briggs Cunningham was the guy that first started my thinking about building American cars and he

came very close to being able to do it. He never really completed the cars the way I think that

he'd like to have done. But the fact that he started doing it and was out there leading everybody

in that direction, you know, there wouldn't be people like Jim Hall out there that have done

the great stuff without guys like Briggs. You know, one of the most popular names in the automotive

aftermarket is Holley. But what a lot of people don't realize is that Holley now has a bunch of

brands that they represent and these are all very famous brands just like them. So when you're

looking for any kind of parts for your project, it would behoove you to go to Holley and look

through their brands, look at all the stuff that they carry. You can pretty much build a whole

project right off of their website. So if you need products, if you need something for an

electrical system or suspension or truck parts or motor parts or superchargers or anything like

that, Holley is the place you need to check out first. You know, if you've watched my shows very

much over the years, you know that I'm really into metal fabrication and metalwork. And people are

always asking, hey, you know, what's the best tools to use? What do you use? And obviously,

I've got a lot of really nice tools. But most of the stuff that you need to do really quality

metalwork is not that sophisticated. And it's not that expensive. It's body hammers, it's shrinkers

and stretchers, it's sheet metal brakes. And these are all things that you can pick up at Woodward

Fab. It's the stuff that I use on the show. And I tell you why, man, it'll get the job done. And

you don't have to spend a lot of money, but you do have to spend time getting to know the tools

and understanding how to make metalwork and how to make metal move. And that is what the Woodward

Fab tools will do for you. So if you're looking to get into doing some metalwork, man, check out

some of their hammers, their dollies, their shrinkers, the stretchers, their sheet metal brakes,

and get into it because I'll tell you why. Once you start to make that metal move,

you will be hooked, man. I'll tell you. And you'll love it. And there's nothing like having the

freedom to take a panel and go, you know, I think I'm going to change that panel because now I can.

So check out Woodward Fab.

You know, one of the things too that you were right in the middle of, you know, American car

culture was very drag race oriented, especially through the late 50s into the 60s. So to change

the public's mind into road racing was very difficult. You know, it was all happening in

Europe. We didn't have road racing as much. How difficult was that to try to get people

in America to get into road racing? How were you guys able to do that? Because you definitely

did it with a Z car. Well, the Z car was something that changed the perception of what automobiles

should be on the road. Because I mean, even though we had the Corvette here in the United States

as a really nicely done GT car, and we had the Cobras in very limited production, which were

all outperformance. We didn't have a car that had the best combination of low price,

very elegant styling, something that could match anything that came out of Europe.

And the Z car was that automobile, I think, that really changed the American perception of what

a good car could be. I mean, we saw the Opel GT, which was pretty good. It's pretty good.

And it could have been a lot better. But of course, the guy that was responsible for that,

Tony Lapine, went from Opel over to Porsche and led Porsche Design for 35 years, and tried to

convert a lot of the Porsche guys over to front engine, water cool stuff. And the whole Porsche

contention would never go along with it, because it wasn't what they considered a Porsche. But

they were very fine automobiles. And if you look at everything that Porsche has used finally,

and in terms of outright competition, they've gone either to front or mid-engine, not rear-engine.

So Tony had a lot to do, basically, as a stylist that worked on the program,

who actually did the production version of the Stingray Coupe with Larry Shenoda.

And he had left before Larry left the GM. So Tony never got as much credit for doing that car

as Larry Shenoda did when they did the production car. I'm very, very proud of the concept car,

which is the XB87, from which the Stingray developed. But actually, it was Larry Shenoda

that did the production version. When you look at the cars that are out there now,

is there anything new that you see coming out that you like as far as the designs and stuff?

Is there anything new that manufacturers are coming out with that you like?

The guys that are really doing this stuff is, I'm not sure how you pronounce the name of it,

but that's a GZ engineering and stuff out of California. They've taken the whole

idea of developing any component on a computer and designing that shape and form for as light and

as strong as possible. And you look at all the parts and there's nothing that came off a drawing

board. Everything has come off the computer. And it is so exciting in terms of looking at

all the components that they've made. That's really, really fantastic. It's far ahead of

whatever anybody else is doing. And I think it's going to probably have more influence

on what we see in the future than anything else.

You know, I'm glad you brought that up. You described designing cars using tape and string

with Ken Miles sitting in the car and these cars went on to win Le Mans.

So what do you think of the computer design stuff? Do you think you could have used that?

Would you have liked to use that? Or do you think something's missing that guys aren't

designing by the seat of their pants? I am still, I'm a dinosaur. I still work with the

string and cardboard and cut out paper dolls and whatever because everything's just,

if you, I don't care what you design on paper and I do all my cards on paper first before I

do them three-dimensionally. When you finally start putting that car together full-size,

you've got to put somebody inside it and see how it really works. At that point,

you begin refining it. Now, there's been so much done on that basis from computers. You can pick a

lot of those dimensions out and move them around and get a very sort of comfortable cockpit,

you know, whatever you want to design. So a lot of future automotive design is going to be

sort of prescribed by what's already been done because we've got so many regulations and so

much federal oversight on what's been done that automobiles as we know them now are not going to

be the same in the future. All that great era that was privileged to grow up in is gone and won't

come back. You know, I talked to guys about that a lot that are trying to get into fabrication

and building and building hot rods and that kind of thing. And I always tell them, it's like,

listen, you can draw it out as much as you want, but eventually you've got to build it.

Absolutely. And sometimes you step back after you've put all that work into it and it's like,

that just doesn't work. Absolutely. And it worked on paper, but now that you've actually done it,

you're like, oh. No, you've got to make it so much easier to mark stuff up. You know, you can go

down to the market and get a bunch of big cardboard boxes and a couple of, you know,

knives and stuff and tape, duct tape and stuff. And you can build that whole thing on the floor

and figure out what it all looks like, then take those dimensions and put them on paper,

and you'll be a lot closer than trying to put them on paper and then make them.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you, because we always talk about music on here too, cars and guitars go hand

in hand. So you grew up in Southern California in the sixties. So what kind of music did you

listen to? What did you like? Were you a Beatles fan? Well, I think that, you know,

creating clear water or something like that. Oh, so you're talking, you're talking the magic now.

I mean, that's that whole era, you know, that's still my favorite. Yeah. So when you get in the

car and you turn some, something music on, what is one of those songs that you just love to drive

to? Well, I actually turn the radio off. The sound I like is what I can hear because I, my,

I'm almost totally deaf now, having ruined my hearing, but with all those racing engines,

that and, and a gunfire, you know, enjoyed shooting for a while. And I think that

without the proper protection, I've destroyed my ears. My dad did the same thing. He was a

competitive shooter for the military for years. Was he? Yeah. And so he's got some hearing loss,

too. Yeah. Because you didn't wear a hearing protection. That was untough, uncool. Right.

Exactly. You know, and even when I thought I had the correct protection in there, it, it, the,

the sound is so, so preventive and so destructive immediately that you don't realize until one

or two hours after you've been doing it. Yeah. So anyway, as far as the music, is there any

particular songs that you like to put on? You did say CCR. So I'm sure there's absolutely, you know,

anything from, I think anything from that particular era, you know, I mean, even stones,

it's always fun to listen to. If I look at all the great music that I really, that I,

that I liked when I was growing up, it was all before my time. All the big band stuff.

Really? Is stuff that I have a greater appreciation for, you know, because I love great dance music.

Yeah. And so. You know, that makes sense though. When I look at your style of design,

it's very classic. Yeah. So that totally fits in what kind of music that you would like. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I think I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a forties guy in terms of what I really appreciated most

and the great big band eras. I mean, because those arrangements were just, they were so beyond to be

that many instruments and put it all together was stuff that I have the greatest appreciation

like the Glenn Miller stuff. Oh yeah. Miller, you know, just fabulous during the war was great.

Yeah. Going back to design a little bit. Okay. So you were in the middle of the, of the battle

with the Shelby Daytona Coupe. Then of course, there's the Jag XKE Coupe, which has that same

shape roughly. And then you have the Ferrari 250 GTO, same kind of shape Corvette and 68 comes out

similar type shape. And then there's this Z car that comes out with a similar type shape.

Did it kind of give you a warm fuzzy feeling that that's what your design is part of that influence?

I don't think I can claim anything that at all. I think because as designers, we all look at what

else is going on in the world and we draw a little bit from this or a little bit from that

and interpret it ourselves. So the Z car is definitely an interpretation of many great forms

and proportions and stuff that was appreciated by the designer. And that's what makes the car

so great. But it's not a steal of any particular car. It's a great amalgamation of all of the

great things. Yeah. And that's what makes you such a great, you're so, you're so humble with

the things that you've done. You're so appreciative. And that's, I tell you, it's a great lesson for

people that it takes a team to put things together, whether it's a band or a car builder or a show,

whatever, it takes a group of people. And that's awesome. Let me ask you this. When you look back

on your life, you've lived a very productive full life. Is there anything particular that you want

or would like to be remembered for? When people think back and they go, well, Peter Brock was

blank. He was this. Is there anything particular? I mean, that's a hard question because nobody

looks at himself that way. I look at it probably the most exciting period of my life, which I had

more fun doing than anything else was hang gliding. I actually had the largest hang gliding

manufacturing company in the world. Son of God, you are like an onion, man. You just keep,

this is more stuff. Well, this hang gliding, because the whole thing started really on the

sand dunes out near my race shop. We were jumping off of sand dunes. So you were one of those thrill

seeker guys. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was just, it was ably. And these things were all made out of

bamboo and duct tape and, and, and we were just, you know, flying these things on the sand dunes

there and then started really developing it, you know, with aluminum tubing and sail cloth and,

and starting to jump off higher mountains. And then we discovered thermals where we could start

climbing and circling and going for distance. And this became the whole development of the

whole hang gliding and foot launch. So you were right there at the beginning of that hang gliding

thing? I did it myself. Yeah. Oh my gosh. There was three companies really in Southern California

that did it. Yeah. And we were all competitive. And of course, this was a sport that was literally

unseen because we were all the places we were flying. People never saw we were up in the mountains.

And, and, but when we finally came to have our international championships, we're held in the

Owens Valley up in, in California. People have no idea that, you know, that you've got this little

80 pound lighter and that you're taking off, you know, on the side of a mountain and you're

climbing to 12 to 15,000 feet and you're flying hundreds of miles across the desert. Oh my gosh.

You know, that is real thrill because what you're, you're climbing and thermals and you're

using all natural energy for it. And it is. Purist type of flying. It's got to be the purest type

of flying. It's the purest form of flying. Yeah. Because it's all weight shift controlled and,

and you can develop it even farther. So there are now some really beautiful little

super light foot launch sail planes now that are full three-axis control. There's

exciting to fly as any super sail plane. So from a standpoint of something

really thrilling to do and catching a thermal and climbing those thousands of feet, that's

every bit as exciting as it ever was driving race cars. Now, are you still involved in that at all?

No. I screwed up my back ears back and can't even lift anything anymore. But, you know,

every day I go out and look in the sky. Oh man. That's got to be awesome. You know, if you can

see those great cumes like we've got outside out there, look, I just see how much lift is being

developed by those clouds and what kind of flying it would be. That's where I'd like to be. Yeah.

Well, for people that want something for their Z car, there's BRE. They can still go to BRE and

get you like your spoilers and your air dams and your mirrors and things like that. Yeah. These

are all things that will, they actually improve the performance of the car in terms of overall

driving. Yeah. And those are still available from BRE. But there's some really good shops in California

that if you want to build up a really fine Z car that nobody's going to touch them or guys that

specialize in those L series engines that are putting out so much more horsepower than we did

back in the day. Sure. Sure. It's like anything else like the Flathead Ford V8. You know,

just amazing what happened with that engine over the years. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Nobody would have

ever suspected what was going to happen with that. Yeah. And it took the overhead valve engine really

to supplant it. Yeah. And then of course, if they want a trailer, there's aero vault. Absolutely.

There isn't anything better. Yeah. And if you don't know much about Peter, you need to just

Google him and just look at his history and his biography. It's very amazing. Peter, it's an honor

to have you on here. It's great to talk with you. You are a national treasure. You really are. Oh,

thank you. You're just one of those guys from that magic era and you were in the middle of it.

And it's just having a great to meet you and have you on here. Well, thank you. You know,

it doesn't happen by yourself, believe me. I was going to say, I may just put you to work here

because I see you looking at some of this stuff. Oh man, your shop looks so good. I just come in

here and spend hours in here. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Thank you. Thanks, Dave.

All right. That's our show for today, which means you need to get out there and start working on

something. Spend some time turning wrenches. You might be surprised how much you like it.

Now, make sure that you check out our website, StacyDavid.com, because we've got all kinds of

new products and some other great stuff that you're just going to love. I've got a new children's

book called Iggy and the Stick Man. This is a story about a lowly stick that has dreams of

greatness only to be ridiculed by his friends. But then through a series of events, he learns that

it is possible to get up off the ground and change everything if you're willing to persevere.

You need to check it out. Also, make sure you check out our social media. That's Instagram,

TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, all at official Stacy David. Our social media is where you're going

to find all of our bonus content, the giveaways, the contests, the trivia. We even have extra viewer

projects that focus on what you are working on. Also, the new season of Gears will be on Racer

Network and YouTube will be the place where you can view all of your favorite Gears episodes,

as well as the full project builds that follow a project from beginning to end. So that's really

nice. But remember, the most important thing is you need to get out there and turn some wrenches

yourself. So get a project and start working on it. Also, if you want to take your project to the

next level, check out Holly and all of their related brands. They will definitely have something

that will help you. Finally, if you need to work some metal, check out Woodward Fab. These are the

tools that I use in the shop and they've been making quality metal products since 1966. All right,

that's all the announcements. We're all up to date. We'll see you next time.

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Automotive Legend Peter Brock!

About this episode

Holly Performance Parts

Woodward Fabrication

Peter Brock

Shelby Daytona

Chevrolet Corvette

Chrysler Daytona

BRE Racing

Datsun 240Z

Z cars

Aeroval

car hauler trailers

aerodynamics

drag

Shelby Cobra

steering with the throttle

Shelby Driving School

fabricator

hot rod

chopped, channeled, sectioned

Holley

superchargers

shrinkers and stretchers

body hammers

sheet metal brakes

GT car

Datsun Z car

Opel Gt

Chevrolet Stingray

Koenigsegg CCR

Jaguar XKE Coupe

Pontiac GTO

Ferrari 250

Ford V8

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