BMW and Mercedes-Benz SHOCK the Auto Industry | Episode 912

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It's noon here in Ventner City, New Jersey and our nation's capital, Washington, D.C.

And this is Car Edge Live for Wednesday, August 27th with your hosts, me, Ray and Ventner, and well, Zach in the environs of Washington, D.C.

And, ladies and gentlemen, rev your engines because we got some big news today.

We really do. This BMW Mercedes-Benz stuff is kind of nuts.

We're going to get into it in just a moment here.

Dad, I'm doing so well. The weather here in Washington, D.C. has never been better.

75 degrees, no humidity for all of you on the East Coast enjoying this weather.

Get outside after watching today's show. That is my plan.

The other thing I encourage you and implore you to do is check out caredge.com.

We have been getting so busy recently, Dad, because we want you to labor less and save more.

We talk all about the car market and buying a car here at Car Edge.

We have two incredibly popular services that thousands of customers have used our negotiation expert service

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Take advantage of that back at caredge.com.

Now, pop, the big story this morning that we are going to cover.

There's actually two Mercedes-Benz stories, but we're going to start here with the Mercedes-Benz and BMW story.

He talks about it a little bit on yesterday's show.

Mercedes-Benz in advance talks about using BMW engines.

This deal would see Mercedes employing BMW's turbocharged 2.0 liter four-cylinder and a variety of vehicles

from the GLA class SUV to the E-class sedan.

This is surprising to say the least.

Well, I don't know why you would say it would be surprising.

It would be like, I don't know, GM saying,

Well, we we're going to talk to Ford and see if we can use their engines in our vehicles.

And so that's how big a deal it is, you know, where you expect manufacturers to perhaps be part of a broader coalition.

But you don't expect them to necessarily work so closely together that suddenly after 100 years of

rivalry that you've decided, well, geez, we can't produce the type of engines we need for our smaller vehicles.

And well, BMW can and does a great job of it.

Why not buy their engines and use them in our vehicles?

And then what is that going to lead to in the future as far as bringing those two rivals even closer together?

You and I have talked about for a while now, Dad, in this post EV transition, post pandemic marketplace,

that a lot of these automakers, which are struggling mightily, we know Volkswagen, for example,

struggling significantly and obviously Audi in conjunction with that.

But many automakers struggling right now, we anticipate consolidation.

We've made many videos calling out specific brands that we think may not survive through the next couple of years here.

And ultimately, the brands probably will exist, but they'll have new ownership.

When you're starting to collaborate across engines, they're not even collaborate, they're just like sharing engines.

That starts to be, I mean, Joe's got a comment here, you know, GM and Ford already share a transmission,

so transmission, share, hear you there.

I don't know, the engine for some reason or another really stands out to me.

It makes me wonder if there could be even deeper consolidation or, you know, like, I don't know,

BMW and Mercedes-Benz end up under the same ownership, maybe.

You know, you start looking at the industry and you look at how much money was committed

towards moving to EVs.

And for a lot of the legacy manufacturers, it was billions upon billions upon billions of dollars.

And those investments haven't produced the type of rewards, the type of returns that they were hoping for.

Mercedes-Benz finds themselves in a situation where they want to be able to provide more hybrids

and their four-cylinder engines are not the right type of engines to combine with hybrids

and the cost of engineering and developing the proper engines could be astronomical.

So for them, they thought to themselves, well, wouldn't it be cheaper and less expensive

to work with BMW and utilize their engines that can be and are intended to be used with hybrids?

So you look at this and you start thinking to yourself, there's the billions of dollars

that in essence have been wasted in many cases because so many of the manufacturers have decided

to continue with the internal combustion engines well into the future, certainly much more into

the future than they had originally planned.

And I think that because of all the added expense that it will become necessary at

some point in time for some of these rivals to become one, you know, so that they can

share the expenses instead of having two companies taking on comparable expenses trying to develop

the engines and fuel capacities of the future, maybe we have one where we've combined the two.

And I think as legacy manufacturers struggle in this realm in comparison to like Tesla and some others,

that I think the only way some of these manufacturers will survive will be to consolidate.

I just I think that's going to happen, you know, could this possibly be the first step towards that?

Yeah, I would think so.

There's a couple other interesting things.

One noted in the report is the companies could also work together on a shared engine

plan to the United States.

So obviously there's pressure on these companies.

We saw Hyundai yesterday announcing another.

What was it five or six billion dollars?

Yeah, five billion they're going to spend to move more production to the United States.

That's another cost center, not even the EV strategy that hasn't panned out.

There's also tariffs and the need to produce vehicles domestically in the United States.

And so there's a lot of investment that has to happen there.

That's another capital outlay for these mega corporations.

But to your point, dad, why not build the plant together, share resources, be more profitable?

I think the investors like the sound of that.

And you may not realize it, folks, but a lot of these manufacturers already hold stakes in other companies.

For example, Mercedes Benz actually just sold their Nissan stake for three hundred and twenty five million dollars.

And if I'm not mistaken, Nissan recently sold their stake in Mitsubishi earlier this year.

So a lot of these automakers already do have a tangled web of relationships and connections.

And so it's not too surprising to see them maybe go deeper in service of trying to be more profitable.

You've got to think the investors will love what they're hearing here.

You would certainly think so.

If you join forces, the whole idea behind mergers typically is,

well, you know, we can build synergy and those synergies will allow us to cut our expenses

and will become more profitable and more streamlined.

OK, that might take 15, 20 years to actually accomplish any of that.

But that's always one of the goals that are laid out for when these companies merge.

It is with the hopes of finding huge cost savings, OK, by combining companies and being able to do it more quickly

and more efficiently.

So, you know, will that will that be the case here?

I if if any of these companies join forces to a major degree and merge,

that will certainly be the corporate speak as to why.

OK, we'll be able to be more efficient.

We'll be able to cut our costs.

We'll be more nimble.

You know, I mean, we could write we could write the press release today.

We know the words that will be in there.

You know, whether or not it would actually work.

I don't know, but I would just think that the sharing of these expenses

and limiting them to a certain degree would kind of sort of make sense.

I think absolutely dad.

I think that's why we're seeing two rivals are two German sports car rivals.

We'll leave Audi out of it for the moment.

Yes, I don't know.

One of the most critical and distinguishing components of their vehicles.

They are engines.

I don't think anyone would have seen this writing on the wall a couple of years ago.

And the engines that they're talking about, I can tell you it's a good engine.

It was the same engine that was in my many Cooper, my many Clubman S all four,

the two liter four cylinder engine that produces.

I think at that time it was 181 horsepower.

More than ample enough to certainly move that many around rather swiftly,

you know, and if they share some of the John Cooper works stuff

with with Mercedes Benz, who knows what that engine could produce.

I mean, the John Cooper works version of it could produce.

I think was 310 horsepower or something like that.

So BMW has built a reputation of being very, very strong in the engine game.

And I can tell you, many had a lot of issues with their engines

when they first came back to the United States because some of them were Peugeot engines.

Some of them were Chrysler engines and they didn't really solve the engine problems

until they became BMW engines.

Yeah, definitely.

All right, Pops, let's switch gears here for a little bit.

I want to talk about Mitsubishi for just a moment.

I know it's not necessarily the most popular brand, but I think it ties into all this conversation.

Mitsubishi Slash's profit forecast is tariffs fan tougher competition outside U.S.

Again, it's a brand.

It's a brand that we would not be surprised goes under new ownership,

which also I'm thinking a little bit here, Dad.

Haven't we seen this to a degree like Robert's calling out here?

Stalantis is the perfect example of your idea of consolidation among OEMs.

Isn't that a little bit what we've seen?

Like, next thing you know, Mitsubishi gets bought up by someone.

Nissan gets bought up by someone.

They're under a new automotive continent named, I don't know,

Gregorio or something like.

Isn't it just going to be something like Stalantis?

Which should be clear.

Stalantis has not actually done well.

They have not.

Is it possible?

Yeah, you know, Mitsubishi is big enough yet small enough that they're not too big to fail.

Okay.

They, you know, unlike some other manufacturers.

They'll sell like almost 900,000 cars this year, which is an astronomical number,

but actually pills in comparison to the fact that Toyota sells 900,000 cars a month.

Yes.

I was going to say Toyota will sell 11 million cars this year.

So yeah, there's there's a significant difference.

You know, Mitsubishi is an interesting company in that in the 90s,

they produced some really well thought out, well thought of vehicles.

They made the Mitsubishi Montero, which was a Jeep like vehicle that was very rugged

and very dependable.

And then I'm not sure what happened to them.

They kind of sort of lost their way to a degree.

And, you know, there's alliances that they have with Nissan,

alliances that they had with Renault.

And, you know, to be fair, Renault has never had the same cachet

as some other brands out there.

You know, they did save Nissan's ass.

When the last time Nissan was in deep, deep trouble, you know,

but that's because the French government was behind it.

Well, we'll see what happens.

I would I would think that Mitsubishi would would have some value.

You know, maybe maybe Mitsubishi and Subaru, maybe something like that.

You know, there will be all forms of consolidation

that we haven't even thought of at this point.

Yeah, I think you're right.

I think you're right.

All right.

Another story I wanted to pick up today, Dad's Thalantis.

They've paid 200 million, 190.6 million in US fuel economy penalties

just this year.

So this has a lot to do, Dad, with what's going to change soon

with you and you can see here the cafe standards.

So yeah, I mean, this is really fascinating.

Thalantis has paid almost $200 million in penalties just this year,

but that's going to go away, I guess.

Well, they've taken the penalties out of not reaching the cafe standards anymore

so that manufacturers won't have to be fearful of not reaching those standards

and having to pay huge penalties and fines for not having done so.

Here you can see that it's almost 200 million so far this year for Thalantis.

That would be something that would just be money back in their pockets in the future.

There's a brand out there that this situation will impact dramatically.

And that's Tesla in the sense that Tesla makes billions of dollars selling their tax credits,

their carbon credits that they get for being zero emission vehicles.

And they sell those to other manufacturers so that they can use those credits

to hit their cafe standards.

Well, once those cafe standards become non-eventful, non-meaningful,

nobody's going to have to be buying those carbon credits from Tesla.

That could have billions upon billions of dollars of impact on Tesla.

That's one of the reasons that Tesla became profitable when they did.

It wasn't necessarily because they were selling so many Teslas.

They were selling the carbon credits to the manufacturers who couldn't reach the standards.

So what this indicates to me is that Thalantis and others won't have to burden themselves

with having to reach those cafe standards and won't have to worry about paying penalties and fines for not having done so.

And Tesla, I don't know, is actually going to have to sell more cars

in order to be able to make their profits as opposed to selling carbon credits.

It's a pretty significant shift in a business model for, say, Tesla,

where so much of their profit came from selling carbon credits.

Definitely. And it also has money back in the pocket of Thalantis.

That's $200 million, I don't know.

We'll end up getting refunded because there's a lot of confusion there right now.

Well, that's $200 million more that goes to the bottom line

so that the Thalantis CEO can get a bigger payday.

Oh, you don't think?

I'm pretty sure it's not going back to the workers.

It'll be going to the upper management.

They'll figure out how to get their hands on that.

You don't think the UAW negotiated a carbon credit thing goes away?

We get more money on our paycheck?

I don't think so.

I know that the bonuses that the UAW is supposed to get every year

based on manufacturers' profits will be much lower this year

than it has been in years past because tariffs have cut into the profit margins

of these manufacturers.

And in many cases, these workers can be losing tens of thousands of dollars.

Yeah, no, definitely.

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Now, Dad, I want to talk a little bit, Justin, on our team pulled together.

The best Labor Day SUV deals.

We know SUVs are some of the most popular vehicles.

At least from a category standpoint, them and trucks.

Dad, some of these deals that Justin compiled here are incredible.

I'll just scroll down for a moment.

We have a lot of 0% financing.

Yeah.

Lease is under $200 a month.

Obviously, Dad, we have the EV tax credits end game at the end of September.

So there's a lot of cheap lease options for EVs as well.

And automakers are trying to get rid of 2025 model year vehicles

as those 2026s are finally starting to make their way on the dealer lots.

You can see here, Justin got everything from Audi, Buick, Chevrolet, Honda,

Hyundai, Jeep, Lincoln, Mazda.

All of the data is available right here.

But let's scroll through some of them.

Dad, Audi, the 2025 Audi Q4 e-tron, $299 a month lease deal

is what they are promoting for 24 months.

You can see it's $4,244 due at signing.

But you're also obviously going to get the $7,500 EV lease credit.

This is like, you know, an Audi sub 300 bucks a month, 24 months.

This is what they're pushing.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

And the one thing I think we're going to find as a common theme

is that for the EVs for whatever reason,

a lot of the manufacturers have tailored their leases to 24 months.

So, you know, it's the type of thing where you can get into a vehicle

and the minute you turn it on,

you can already see the light at the end of the tunnel.

24 months isn't that long.

It's amazing how quickly 24 months can go by.

What's 300 times 24, 70, 7,200 bucks?

7,200 bucks, yeah.

So, I mean, that's pretty inexpensive for a vehicle.

Yeah, there's the $4,244 plus tax title and license.

But that's still relatively inexpensive to be able to drive

a $57,000 vehicle for two years.

I'd be curious as to what some of those other lease deals are.

There are some of the other deals that are available.

Let's keep going Buick.

They're trying to move the 25 Buick Encore GX.

$0 down lease stand here at $349 a month for 39 months.

With nothing out of, nothing due at signing other than a tax title and license.

But yeah, that's a pretty damn good deal.

I mean, for 39 months, you're paying for lots of appreciation

and it's still only 350 bucks a month.

And if you consider that the average new car payment today is $750 a month

and the average term is 70.2 months, you know, we're looking at $400 a month

less than that for what, 30 months less time.

Yeah, seems pretty almost reasonable to me.

Almost reasonable Chevrolet is trying to move the Equinox EV.

0% financing for 60 months.

That is the big one that they're pushing.

They also have $319 a month for 24 months, but that's with $3649 due at signing

before taxes and fees.

So Chevrolet trying to push the Equinox EV, the Trax.

That Trax is a vehicle you and I have been screaming from the rooftop

for a long, long time, $269 a month for 36 months.

It's a $2,500 due at signing Honda trying to move the prologue.

We've got an EV lease deal at $159 a month for 24 months, $2,599 due at signing.

Could you imagine getting in a brand new Honda for under $160 a month?

Like, these promotions work for a reason.

And here's the deal.

If you don't put the $2,500 down, the payment goes up $41 a month

for every $1,000 you don't put down.

So $41 and $41 is 82 and a half of $41 is, what, $2, so that would be,

the payment's going to go up $62 from the $159 a month.

You're still at like $225 a month with zero out of pocket other than tax title.

For two years.

I mean, that's ridiculous.

Okay, $220 a month, $225 a month for two years.

That's not a lot of money to have use of a vehicle.

And I understand that a lot of people have to go, but you own nothing.

Well, you haven't invested all that much either.

Yeah, seriously.

Seriously, this is like, you need transportation from point A to point B

and you're comfortable with an EV.

Honda's making it hard not.

I mean, it's a nearly 50,000.

Like Justin wrote it here.

It's nearly a $50,000 car.

Okay, Hyundai debt.

Hyundai's pushing the Palisade, 0% financing for 60 months is kind of wild

considering the Palisade was one of those vehicles that was seeing

additional dealer markups and things like that.

Not too long ago.

Fast.

The Santa Fe as well, dad, the redesigned Santa Fe, 0% financing

for 60 months here as well.

So Hyundai being very aggressive, not on the lease side

with their internal combustion engine vehicle on the finance side.

Let's keep going here Jeep, dad.

The 2025 Gran Cherokee L, you've got $6,000 and a bonus cash incentive,

a big cash incentive there from Jeep Lincoln.

You see that?

2024 folks, 2024 Lincoln Corsair.

They're doing a lease deal for $276 a month for 24 months

with $4,300.

Do it saying, think about that for a second when we tell you

the longer a vehicle's been sitting on the lot,

the more likely they are to want to move on from it.

This is the 2024 Lincoln Corsair in August, end of August,

2025 getting this type of promotional treatment.

It seems to me it probably should have gotten that promotional

treatment about a year ago.

But what do I know?

I only spent 43 years in the retail automotive space.

You know, I mean who the hell wants to be carrying that car

in the inventory for a year, a year and a half?

Mazda, we've talked about the CX-90, Phev, they've got

the $10,000 lease cash on the Phev, so that's a great option

over there.

Nissan, dad, Nissan's got all sorts of deals right now,

0% financing across the Rogue, Murano and Pathfinder.

So Nissan similarly to Hyundai being really aggressive

on the financing side.

Yes, and as I like to say, especially in Nissan's case,

they're 0% financing offered because there's zero interest

in their vehicles at the moment.

Tesla's also got an offer, dad, on the Tesla Model Y,

$399 a month for 36 months with $3,000 due at signing.

So Tesla getting aggressive on these incentives as well.

Volkswagen with the ID for another electric vehicle here.

In this case, they're offering 0% financing for a look

at that 72 months.

Yeah. Wow.

That's pretty good.

That is free money, ladies and gentlemen.

That is free money.

You just pay it back over time with no interest for six years.

I think you could take that money and you could put it somewhere.

My guess is you're going to get more than 0%.

So that's a hell of an opportunity.

The only problem with it is, well, you're driving an ID for,

but if you don't mind doing that,

that is, they're basically offering you free money.

Pops, let's come here to the chat from Chris.

Thank you, Chris, for the generous contribution.

So if I have a 2025 model on the lot for 150 plus days

with a market day supply of 100 plus days,

is it reasonable to ask for a dealer discount to the target sale price below invoice?

And if so, what percent below invoice would be okay?

So I think what Chris is referencing is we have a target discount back on the caredge.com car search.

I would definitely ask for more than that if the vehicle has been sitting for 150 plus days

and the day supply is over 100.

I would absolutely be asking for a bigger discount.

There's definitely some need to move it.

And don't forget, I mean, if even if you buy it at invoice,

it's not like the dealer isn't making money

because they're making their hold back on that,

which is what, 2.5%, 3% of the original MSRP.

So, you know, if it was a $50,000 car,

they're still making maybe $1,500 bucks in hold back.

So there's money to be made

and you're not even talking any incentives from Ford yet to get you below invoice.

I will say this to Chris and every other person out there.

You will never get what you don't ask for.

However, what you ask for has to be based somewhat in what is reasonable.

Okay, I have seen in 43 years in retail automotive

and you can talk to anybody who has been in retail automotive

that a lot of people have unrealistic or unreasonable expectations.

I remember one time I had a customer at the Pontiac store,

a son Pontiac in Mesa, Arizona,

offered me, I don't know, it was like $15,000 off on a firebird.

And there was no way to get there.

And he looked at me and said,

well, you have to do that.

I said, why is that?

He said, well, because the customer is always right.

I said, I said, yeah, the customer is always right until today.

Okay, you are so wrong because it's not based in reality.

So whatever offer you make has to be based somewhat in reality.

So, Pops, Chris has fallen up here.

So that's why I asked a question,

what percent request would be reasonable?

We don't know the vehicle, Chris,

so if you mind sharing that, that'd be helpful.

But just based off the stats that we know,

which Chris shared, which is 150 days on the lot,

the day supply in his area is over 100 days.

You're shooting for 5% below invoice.

You're shooting for 2% below invoice.

What do you think is a reasonable ask?

Well, you know, if the dealer is making 3% hold back,

can you be 5% below invoice utilizing factory incentives perhaps?

If there are no factory incentives, that'll make it harder.

So for a vehicle that's been there 150 plus days,

if the dealer were to net zero out of selling the vehicle...

The Nero EV, that's what we're talking about.

Okay, well, that probably doesn't have a 3% hold back.

So there are probably large sums of factory to dealer money on Nero's

along with whatever customer incentives there are.

My supposition is that there's not a lot of markup

between the invoice amount and the MSRP on that vehicle.

So based on, and I don't know off the top of my head

how much the key of dealers are getting back for their Nero's,

but yeah, you should be able to be an invoice or below

and, you know, 2%, 3%, 4% perhaps below invoice

after you factor in all the incentives.

That would seem to be somewhat reasonable.

I think that lands well with me as well.

Dad, that's coming up from David.

Thank you, David.

Is $60,000 out the door a lot for a 2025 Chevy Traverse RS?

Wow, a Chevrolet Traverse at $60,000.

That just sounds expensive off the bat.

Oh, that seems like a lot.

It's a Chevy, you know.

That seems like a lot for a Chevy Traverse RS,

but $60,000 out the door is relative to where you live.

If you live in a high tax rate state,

you know, like when we lived in Arizona,

in Scottsdale, I think if I remember correctly,

the sales tax in Scottsdale was like 8.75%.

You know, that quickly adds up into your out the door price.

So it depends on the state in which you live,

and especially also in Arizona,

the way the license plate fees are calculated

are based as a percentage of the MSRP

so that, you know, to register the vehicle for a year

could be $800.

So it depends.

I agree.

It does depend.

The fact that we talk about like the Mazda CX-90P

have being $60,000, a Chevy Traverse being $60,000.

It's just crazy.

Crazy.

Also, I want to just pull up here.

We've got some comments from Space,

as well as Igor talking about not using the invoice price

as your end-all be-all for negotiations.

I think Chris, that's really well said from Space here.

Target 11% off MSRP pre-incentives.

All right.

So there you go.

Some really good info here, which we appreciate.

Thank you, Space.

Thank you, Igor, in the chat.

Let's remind everyone once more, if we can help out,

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Dad, we'll be back tomorrow with more CarEdge live.

I think there's some really, really,

really interesting auto loan delinquency data.

I'll actually share it with you in advance

so you're up to speed on it.

We'll cover that at the start of tomorrow's show.

And yeah, then we'll, we'll, you know,

head ourselves into the weekend.

I'm not going to be able to do the show Friday.

So I'll talk to Justice, see if we're doing a show,

see if we're not doing a show.

And then no show Monday of next week.

So you got to tune in tomorrow, folks.

You got to tune in tomorrow.

Why, just because Monday's Labor Day?

Monday's Labor Day.

I'll be driving back from Kentucky.

So I won't be able to do the show.

I don't want to get your gig.

You know, you hardly work.

Hey.

When you work, you, you work hard,

but, but you hardly do it anymore.

I mean, I, I need this day off.

I need that day off.

How much PTO time do you get?

Hey, last time I checked, I'm still working when I'm off.

All right.

Thank you, Justice.

Appreciate you.

Go into Red River Gorge.

Have you ever looked at Red River Gorge, Dad?

Why would I look at it?

I don't know.

I'm just, what's there?

Is there, I look like, is there a Red River?

Is there a Gorge of some kind?

Looks gorgeous, man.

It does.

And other than climbing, would there be a reason for me to go

since I don't climb?

No, I don't think there's a reason for you to go.

Okay.

Yeah.

No, it looks pretty.

And that's in Kentucky somewhere.

In Kentucky.

Where?

Not a clue.

Perfect.

Okay.

All right, folks.

We're back tomorrow.

Love you, Pops.

Love you, too, handsome.

See you, everybody.

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BMW and Mercedes-Benz SHOCK the Auto Industry | Episode 912

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