Driving 1000 Miles In A 70-year old car — Carmudgeon Show Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep. 193

Helljourno. Just kidding. How do you say it in English? Hello. Hello. Hello. Good day. Yes. This is about an American, this episode of The Car Margin Show, which you are consuming. Featuring a Jason Camisa and a Derek Tam Hyphen Scott. I guess I could say the Derek Tam Hyphen Scott, because there's probably only one of me, but I know that there's more than one of you. This episode is brought to you by Diet Coke. You know that moment when you just need to hit pause and refresh. An ice cold Diet Coke isn't just a break.

It's your chance to catch your breath and save a moment that's all about you. Always refreshing, still the same great taste. Diet Coke, make time for you time.

Just made up on the spot. Yes. It's a 1,000 mile event in 70 plus year old cars. So this is kind of my discussion of the adventure, misadventure, chaos, colorful stories coming from California and the roads they're in. Great. So yes. And away we go. Back to being terrible. I had to break the streak.

Okay. Okay. Oh, and then K doing. We are sponsored by Viper Industrial, the makers of the Viper chairs. This thing right here. It's on the table that is decidedly not a Photoshop. Not a Photoshop. It's not a lightweight model, either. It's built very strongly in America out of real materials.

It looks like a not clear cat. That's probably a gold cat. Can you do cat anymore? Can you actually have things cat plated or is it just a process? I guess you probably can in states outside of California.

We get it's funny looking at restoration and voices for cars that come out of the shops that my business partners father started because it'll be like bring 485 pieces to platter for clear cat gold cat and black oxide.

And black oxide plating and it's just like she's like that's what goes into restorations is literally 500 pieces of hardware to get replayed. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. We're talking about Viper chairs. We are.

And the plating they contain and where and all of that. Yes, because the bolts are beautifully plated and the materials are all real made here in America.

Yes, by car folks, car brothers, two of them who have sought to improve all of the things that are tools or devices you use in a garage.

I take a issue with some of the script that talking points that we've been given because it says no corners cut. And I'm going to say these are rounded corners that are beautifully cut.

Otherwise, they would have to be straight. Is it still a corner if it's rounded? It's a corner. You go around a corner in a car, don't you?

Anyway, fair. Thank you, Viper chairs for this positive and more importantly from now actually from a couple weeks ago through July, June 22nd, they're giving away a 2021 Python green Porsche GT4 for every $5 you spend at Viper industrial.com.

You get entered for a chance to win the GT4 plus $15,000 in cash.

Four rules and details at Viper industrial.com and that's VYPER industrial.com. But don't forget to use the code Carmugin for $50 off.

Good luck spelling that C-A-R-M-U-D-G-E-O-N. Why did it mean to you? I meant to our viewers.

I was supposed to say Carmugin. C-A-R-M-U-D-G-E-O-N. Carmugin.

I won the spelling bee and I forget it was sixth grade maybe.

I was really, really good at spelling and so I was entered into the spelling bee and nerves got the best of me and I think I spelled something like the wrong.

I got on stage and it was like, how? So I'm like H-A-U-S-W-H-O-R-E.

Are you pulling me? Yes, I have.

See? Look at everyone. It's not a photoshop.

While Derek is dismounting the chair, I must point out that I am wearing a button-down shirt.

And the reason for which? Because this morning I was looking at comments from last week's episode.

Last week? Was it last week's episode?

Yeah. And Pat Mickelson said, he had a 8.8 bullet points in a list of things that he won.

Well, that's a substantial comment.

And number three, I will pay $200, Jay will pay Jason $200 to wear a tailored button-down shirt on an episode.

And there are three replies. One is, I second the button shirt.

That's it. So $400 payable to me. Figure out how to get me that money.

Is that tailored? It said how to be tailored. What's that tailored?

You're welcome.

396 of fuck you, Mr. Mickelson.

God damn it. You just cost me $400. Well, Jason's wearing-

Jason's wearing-

Well, you need a gold chain.

It's implied I'm Italian from Brooklyn.

Right. It's silver because I'm classy. Gold is trashy.

I do have a gold chain with the cross because I'm required by law to wear that one of at home.

But silver is more my style anyway.

Although we have in the background two Mercadez disease.

Yeah.

One of which is Smoker's cough silver and the other one is non-smoker silver.

Yes, the regular silver.

The W201 and the W202 both the hottest versions of technically minds not the Evo 2 would have been the hottest version of the 201 available at the time that they were produced

because your car is an 85 that was the hottest version available in 1985.

That was the hottest goddamn car in the goddamn world or something.

And the C43, which is one of the most underrated and undervalued and undervalued Mercades, which is good.

I mean, people are always like, what can I buy that cost reasonable money?

I think this represents a lot of which is why I have one and I daily it.

So that is the C43 AMG and a 2.316.

Just having the we are both here in Mercadez's is today and I am in a non-tailored but non-shirt.

Why would you tailor a shirt just by one that fits you properly to begin with?

If you can find one, it depends on what you're shaped like.

I'm shaped like a person and yet shirts fit me.

Right, none of this has anything to do with today's episode.

Topic is far as I know.

I don't know.

We haven't yet.

Excuse me.

Today's episode is sponsored by Nyquil and Dayquil.

And yes, if you take Nyquil, this episode will be short.

Oh, that'd be fun.

Let's get fucked up on an episode.

Let's just bolt that Nyquil.

I'm sure that's something kind of...

No, Nyquil's long.

We can bolt take Nyquil and see who lasts longer.

Okay.

This episode about my experience on the California Miele.

Miele.

Miele?

A thousand Miele.

So it's named for the Miele Miele, which is a thousand miles, which was an event that ran until 1957 in Italy and it was like a real race.

But then it got resuscitated in 1991 in California as more of a sort of casual drive rally event.

Started by a guy named Martin Swig, who was a local legend and car enthusiast who was always driving around in weird 1100 CC Fiat's and eight cylinder Chrysler Indy cars and all manner of Alfa Romeo's and stuff like that.

And this is TurboTarge Suzuki SX-4.

Really?

That surprises me not at all.

He was a passionate enthusiast of all types of automobiles.

And his sons both live on today in the car world.

One of them is a specialist at Broad Arrow and was previously at RM.

And the other one is likely the guy who says your car is not cool enough to be unbrained trailer.

Or it's too cool for bringing a trailer or it's your price is too high.

I think that's his job.

He's one of the people who is responsible for determining what goes unbrained trailer and with what reserve.

And so they're very actively involved.

And now the California, so Mr. Swig, the elder died probably in 2012.

I'm guessing and his sons and widow ran it for some years after that.

And now it is owned by Haggerty.

And so Haggerty has really elevated it.

It's quite a swanky event.

I've wanted to go on this event since I was a little kid because I was a weird kid.

But you have to weird kids become weird adults.

I am a weird creature.

And so the original Meal Emilia was run on public roads a thousand miles worth over mountain passes in the Apanini.

And in Italy it started in Russia and it went through Rome.

And I think it ended back.

It was like a big loop.

And so Sterling was famously set the record for the fastest ever Meal in 1955,

driving a Mercedes 300 SLR.

That's why we have Mercedes here.

And at an average speed of 98 to point something miles an hour.

Which is public roads, public 50s, with gigantic drum brakes.

So anyway, the last time it was run was 1957 because public roads, cars were getting faster.

They just stopped running it because it was too dangerous.

And so if you want to do the California Meal,

you have to do it in a car that's 1957 or earlier or a model that was available in 1957 but was produced later on.

So 300 SL's, because they were made from 57 to 63.

You could run on any 300 SL, Alpha Julietta's.

But yeah, that's the event in a nutshell.

It is very premium now.

It's quite a swanky affair.

It's probably one of the most swanky rally events that you can do.

And it's the event, oh, you bring your wife on that one because they stay in nice hotels

and they feed you nice food and unlimited alcohol.

I don't know if it's unlimited, but certainly there's no shortage of alcohol available.

Should anyone have the interest and desire.

So my business partner and I decided to do this sort of as an effort to...

I don't know, get ourselves out there.

There's lots of cool people who do this event.

And you were invited to go as well, right?

Yeah, but I was...

Where was I?

Oh, I was filming in the desert as usual.

So you were having a swanky affair and I was in Little Methlehab, getting sunburned.

Yeah.

Bernanated and windburned.

It was great. We have very different lives here and I.

Sometimes they are not so different, but other times they are.

They're right now, they're pretty similar because we're both doing the carmage and show.

And in...

Okay.

So for Mercedes.

Yeah, fair point.

But I am wearing a non-tailored button down shirt and you're in some...

Dinesse.

Hasn't T-shirt.

Yes, today I'm a peasant.

Somebody else noticed in the comments last week that you always wear motorcycle brand and stuff

and wants to know why you never do motorcycle type content.

Because motorcycles are stupid.

I'm much better at cars than I am at motorcycles.

I would not make content if I didn't feel like I could authoritatively speak about it

and I don't feel like I can do that with motorcycles.

I'd prefer that.

Just...

That motorcycles are stupid.

Yeah, just easier.

Because I can't be trusted to ride one as well.

Miles Collier, who started, I think, the SECA and also Collier County, Florida

and the Revs Institute, a sports car institution where his family did start...

He didn't start the county, but his family did.

Anyway, he's made a description of two types of car enthusiasts, which there's probably more than two.

But he describes contemplative enthusiasts and experiential enthusiasts.

You know, contemplative are sort of thinking about things in an intellectual fashion

and thinking about design and engineering.

And it's a sort of more cerebral type and experientials are more like ass hauling

and maybe working on also.

I don't know that...

I mean, some people are all of the above.

Some people skew more towards the other.

I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

I think they're ideal types and everybody exists somewhere on having components of both.

Anyway, I forget why I was talking about...

I was going to say, where the fuck are you going with this?

It's about rally events, I guess.

So you were bringing this back to rally events?

Yes.

So you had an experiential experience?

Yes.

That was a experiential experience.

It was.

I think the driving portion would sort of drive you nuts.

Why?

Because not that many people are hauling ass.

And if you do want to haul ass...

Since 1957 cars, they're not usually made for Collier's.

Well, they were in period.

That's all that they did.

I mean, if you couldn't go 98 miles an hour average speed for a thousand miles on public roads...

That's why you're going to a 300 SL.

You do something that can barely do 48 miles an hour and you drive it 11 times the whole way.

So the most common types of cars in this rally are obviously less expensive cars.

Because you could spend a lot of money on some of these cars.

But like Alphajolietas, because they are common and relatively inexpensive,

you know, anywhere from 40 to 200 to $250,000.

Practically free.

Well, compared to some of the other stuff, they're non-expensive.

Jag XK's, because those are also relatively inexpensive.

Porsche 356's.

You know, for people who want to make it, you do it in a German car.

So 356's.

And then very well represented are Mercedes 300 SL's.

Those are expensive, but they just make it.

And they generally work.

Although there was one that didn't make it.

It ended up on a tow truck.

There's a lot of cars that end up on tow trucks.

Some of the things that make this swanky are that there's two tow trucks that follow the entire event all day long

and pick up the pieces it needed.

So there's like a multiple stage intervention.

You know, step one is the mechanic.

There's a group of mechanics who follow the event around.

And if you have an issue, then they'll spend up to 30 minutes trying to fix your car on the side of the road.

Yes.

That's the start of time.

That's like the policy generally.

And at that point, they'll tag in a tow truck.

And there's two roadside.

There's actually, so the tow trucks that they follow the event route picking up stragglers or, you know, survivors.

And cars cars.

Yeah, exactly.

They'll bring you to the hotel for that night.

And then the mechanics will try and fix your car that night if they can.

They are unable.

Then, haggity roadside takes it to a shop of your choice for them to try and do it.

So, you know, included in the substantial admission is that roadside assistance.

And the guide, you know, the rally mother who puts on the whole event.

He says that if it's not treat this as a four day rolling restoration.

Because there are mechanics there.

And you guys are alpha specialists.

They now have a dedicated 300 S L specials because, you know, out of 81 cars, I think there were probably 10 or 12 300 S Ls.

So, you know, these are for the people who are most interested in making it.

And they made a lot of those cars and they're really good event cars.

And so, you know, but then there's guys who are in weirder stuff.

You know, a car that used to belong to Mr. Martin Swig who started the event is competing or participating this year as a Fiat 1100,

which was extremely well driven and hilarious to watch in the true spirit of the event.

And then there's like Monchoes and some Ferrari's this year.

Ferrari 250 was the featured car.

And so, quite a fair few of those materialized, including I think there were four and a half TDFs.

Explain me half.

It didn't start as a TDF, but it was sort of converted at a later date.

So, I don't know if you want to call that zero of a TDF or it resembled, it looked like a TDF,

but it wasn't an original genuine TDF.

But the TDF was the two generations before the 250GTO, which is very well known for being so expensive.

But these were basically the competition variants of the 250.

There were probably at least two dozen versions of the 250 made over the 10 or so years that they made those cars,

that ranged all the way from like sort of regular comfy elegant street cars to like very competition oriented.

And so, this was the not the first, depends how you count, but it is one of the generations of the competition oriented cars.

So, they're very valuable and there were four or five of those.

On the event, two of which failed to proceed and one of which ended up with us.

And that night they pulled the gearbox out, it's got stuck in reverse.

That night they pulled the gearbox out and took the gearbox apart unstuck it.

The reverse, who was they?

They is a Patrick Otis company who is my co-founders, father's restoration business.

He said Pebble Beach Joe.

The car was local.

Yeah, the car was, you know, an hour or two away from the shop.

It got towed to Patrick Otis.

They pulled the gearbox out that night, disassembled it the next morning, unstuck the reverse gear, which had insufficient clearance.

So, it basically welded itself to the shaft.

So, they did all that, honed it.

So, there was more clearance, put it all back together, and trucked the car back that night so the guy could finish the event in his car.

Wow.

And that guy won an award for sort of...

I can't remember exactly...

The most amount of money on a roadside repair.

It was like the mechanical mishap award.

It had a more formal name than that, more official sounding because it's kind of a high-end event.

But he got an award for his, you know, resilience and getting underway and finishing the event in the car.

Cool.

And then another one, the differential failed.

That was not repaired in time.

But we meaning our business supplied him with a loaner car to finish the event.

And he has a habit of not completing rallies in various cars.

I don't know if I should publicly recount any stories.

But he's bought cars when his primary rally car has failed to complete the rally.

Sometimes more than once on the same rally.

Because the second car also failed.

Sounds like...

Sounds like maybe the problems aren't mechanical in nature, but are the...

I think he's definitely a VMAX kind of guy.

He will use all of the performance capability of the car, for sure.

So we made friends with him because he was one of...

You know, this event by its nature, it's a high-end event.

It's costly.

A lot of guys bring their significant others who may not want to be going at 10-10th Don till dusk.

And so it's different from your and my dirtbag rallies where it's like it's all about the roads and going fast and using all the cars capability.

I would say the majority of participants in this event don't do that.

And it was not... I think you'd find it frustrating for that reason.

It depends on mindset going in and...

Yes, you have to set expectations.

So how many miles total travel?

990 miles plus a bonus 10 mile loop to get to a thousand was provided.

It's a different route every year.

It has never been recycled in the 34-35.

I guess this was probably the 35th instance of it.

They've never repeated route.

It's pretty cool.

And it was interesting to talk to the...

I was with one of the swigs and someone said it was a bittersweet experience for you.

And he said, nope, just sweet.

Because we used to put this on four of us and it was incredibly stressful to get all these people who have high expectations

to all these places and plan hotels and meals and routes and all this stuff.

It was very stressful to put on.

And Haggerty has a whole team of...

You know, the media team who's responsible just for video and photo.

And then they have the event team and the support team.

And, you know, and McEyl Haggerty was there with his wife participating in one of the TDFs also.

And so I mean, they take it very seriously and it's kind of...

I imagine the crown jewel of the Haggerty event portfolio because it's such an iconic thing.

And so he was there and very visible and sort of carrying the torch on and trying to, I think, honor the legacy of Mr. Swig, you know, the elder.

Which I think they did a great job of.

So this week seemed very happy to attend rather than put it on.

Right.

Now, because those of us who are in the business in various ways in the car space, I think, of making the sausage,

we know that it looks nice as a consumer of the product but sometimes making the product can be really stressful.

Well, listen, you've put together how many dirtbag rallies and they're stressful for you.

Yes, yes.

And I mean, same thing.

But it comes out always every time.

Well, yeah. I mean, I put in a shitload of effort and it's just like...

I would give people to turn up and pay and be where they say they're going to do.

And do the thing that I plan.

I'll handle the rest of everything.

I'll figure out where we're going and where we're eating and where we're staying and all that shit.

I just want you to show up and pay me for your share.

And not bitch about roadside elections and potholes and everything else.

Yeah.

It's a lot of work.

A huge amount of work.

Yes. And they are doing this at a high level.

But so, yeah, it was certainly an interesting experience.

And obviously the aesthetics of all these cars and seeing them all out in the world being used and all that.

But with cars that are minimum of 70, 68 years old,

there are definitely a lot of opportunities for things to go wrong.

And they sometimes do various mechanical issues.

We did some roadside repairs.

There was a Citroen ID, which came out of a nine year restoration.

And this, it had like a couple hundred miles of shakedown on it.

And it generally did pretty well.

Although it did a, had an issue with the starter,

which required just the strategic use of a hammer to make it start.

And then the shift linkage failed at one point.

It was a column shift manual.

And in our car, we had a bag of random hardware.

And so we saw them pulled over.

And we said, oh, here, let me, that we investigated.

And the bag of random hardware saved the day.

Because there was a bolt that had just vibrated and the unneeded like a nilock or a lock tight in.

And it had vibrated and fell out.

And so the shift linkage stopped working.

So we fixed that on the side of the road.

You know, incidents like that.

Someone sort of misjudged a three point turn and ended up dropping two wheels off a ledge

and had to get dragged out.

And probably the incident of the event was a,

there's, so there used to be a lot of pre-war cars on this event.

You know, there's a lot of interesting pre-war sports cars, BMW 328s,

Jaguar SS100s, Alpha 8Cs, and 6Cs, Bentley's, all the sort of competition cars of that era.

And there was only one pre-war car,

although nominally pre-war, a lot of this car was post-war because a lot of these pieces of cars

can sort of get reconstituted.

But the car very much looks like a pre-war car.

It was a Bentley.

And on the golden gate bridge, somebody just drove into it.

And the car, the Bentley was in the far right lane.

The person, the woman who in the Honda Accord who hit it was in the center lane

and she spun him around and he ended up in the number, the leftmost lane.

Two lanes away from where he started facing oncoming traffic.

Yeah, so that was whole colorful.

There's video footage of that.

I don't, I don't know if we want to put it in as an insert, but I have it.

I don't, this probably shouldn't be widely publicly shared.

I mean, was it on social media?

One person did post it on social media.

Fair game.

I want to see it.

That's got to be heroin.

And thank God for the barrier because up until what, eight, ten years ago.

Yes.

The services go.

The golden gate bridge did not have a jersey barrier.

Yes.

And there would be famously a lot of head-ons.

So she turned right?

No, she was just target fixated.

She was looking at the car and she drove the car where her eyes were looking into a pre-war Bentley.

I will show it here since it's been on social media.

No one was hurt.

Thank God.

It's on a dashcam of a Tesla.

Yes.

Right.

Holy shit.

Please hold me.

She didn't take off.

No.

She was in the wall.

She alleged, well, she didn't alleged.

Very clearly she was looking at the car and not where she was going and she drove straight into the Bentley.

No one was harmed.

The car completed the event.

They completed the event.

She climbed up that car.

Yes.

The passenger said that she was looking at the underside of the accord at one moment.

But they were very resilient.

They were recognized for their resilience and sort of spirit.

They said, look, this is one of our very favorite activities.

We can't not do it.

Lots of good spree decor and sort of the spirit of the event is very much about it.

It's a mandatory adventure.

Just being in cars that are 70, 80, 90, 100 years old and doing 1,000 miles.

And there's tortuous roads.

I mean, there are types of roads we would use for our rallies for sure.

And it is, like I said, a mandatory adventure.

None of these cars is terribly civilized.

Although there were some person in a kind of Cadillac, which was quite a neat vibe.

Civilized in a straightaway until a corner.

Or when you're on a continuous long descent using your drum brakes.

Thank God you have 62 liters of V8 for engine braking.

So what were you in?

We were in a 1956 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Veloce.

And this is, you know, I had a spider of Veloce, which you drove.

And this car is a good athletic agile car, which likes to go around tight corners.

Sorry, ours was a hot rod, 1,500 ccs on the rebuild.

And it's owned by my business partner and his father bought it from a 50-year owner of the car.

And it's kind of scruffy and some of the paint's coming off.

But in the last 10 years, my business partner has basically gone through and completely rebuilt the car mechanically for kind of just this event.

And his first car was one of these that someone had rolled on the California Miele in 1992.

He was like, the guy who owned the car was like, you can have it free if you fix it.

And so he cut off the crumpled roof and welded on a new roof.

And he was 14 at the time.

And like reconstituted the car and then sold it to go pay for a race car.

And so like, he's always wanted to do this event.

And I've wanted to since I was a kid.

But you know, it's, I think it's a lot of money for us.

Some other people is not, but it's a huge amount of money.

And so neither of us has ever bothered to do it.

But this year, we decided, okay, let's make this happen.

So we ran into McHeal Haggerty on the way to dinner one night.

Tell him, make sure you want to just kill him.

I did not.

That would be something you would say.

I'll tell him.

No problem.

But anyway, my co-founder Taz recorded, recounted this story to McHeal.

And I think it made an impression because we got recognized as the best newcomer first-timer.

Oh, cool.

For the, or whatever.

We don't want an award.

He's the best newcomer.

So you talk about it on the comment.

Sure.

I mean, and I'm earning my keep.

But you know, that story of Taz is, I think, is representative.

It's not a very large group of people.

I mean, I'm, we were by far the youngest car.

I mean, our average in-car age between the two of us is 33 or 34.

You know, and a lot of these people are old-timers anywhere from like 50s is on the younger.

And there were a couple of like father-son aged pairs.

So like one, you know, older person and one person who's probably in their 20s.

But generally speaking, you know, these are people in their 50s, 60s, 70s doing this event,

which is a reflection of both the cost and the types of cars.

Yep.

Which is a bit of a shame, because I think these cars are incredibly, incredibly cool

and to get to see them used in this way.

And it certainly highlights, it's hard on cars, for sure.

Even if you're just puttering around, which I think the majority of people are puttering around,

but we figured out that if you leave meal stops early or leave the drivers meeting early in the morning,

you can get ahead of the traffic.

Because a lot of the traffic is you're just sitting in behind 17, 50s cars being driven by geriatrics, if I'm honest,

who are just trying about completion.

You know, they're not trying to be up on the side walls of their tires or anything like that.

You were, though, because my co-founders have raised car driver and you're a lunatic.

And I'm a lunatic, although, you know, not my car.

So he was definitely driving it harder than I would care to.

And so we figured out if you leave early enough, then you can get some good ass hauling on,

in which we did do.

There's a couple of folks who do it, but I would say that maybe 90% of people,

or maybe 80 to 90% of the people are just out there going for a drive.

Just trying to finish.

A thousand miles in the 1950s.

A massage chair might seem a bit extravagant,

especially these days, eight different settings, adjustable intensity, plus seated.

And it just feels so good.

Yes, a massage chair might seem a bit extravagant, but when it can come with a car.

Suddenly, it seems quite practical.

The Volkswagen Tiguan, packed with premium features like available massaging front seats,

that only feels extravagant.

The 50s car was not a guarantee when these cars were new.

Yes.

It's kind of, even into the 80s, you know, it's kind of important for people to remember.

The 80s and 90s when we think of the sort of, the truly modernization of cars,

where they became reliable.

I was reading, I think it was an XJ Cherokee when I was doing research.

And I was reading car drivers long term, like one year, long term test.

They said it was one of the three cars in the last eight years or something

that had not been on a tow truck for the duration of their long term test.

Which is, what is that, 20,000 miles?

I think it was 30.

Think about that.

I mean, most cars were towed at some point in the first 30,000 miles.

Yeah.

And so, you know, 50s cars were notoriously unreliable by the standards of 80s and 90s cars.

I mean, there's all this mechanical stuff in the ignition system, and the fueling system,

and carburetors, and, you know, the cars are simple, but they need, like,

pedaling and sort of mechanically aware in interventions, even if it's something like the shift linkage,

where it's just a loose bolt that vibrated out.

It's just the state of the automobile at that time was all together different

from what we're used to from the last 40 years.

So, where did this start?

It starts in Half Moon Bay, California at the Ritz Carlton.

It started, right?

This was just, because it's every year is different.

It doesn't, so it used to always start at the Fairmont in San Francisco,

and they decided to move it somewhere a little bit less urban,

and so Half Moon Bay is now the starting place.

I think that they usually use that as the origin, and then it finishes somewhere else every year.

But it was thoughtfully planned in a way to accommodate the fact that, like,

this is the event that you would be most inclined to bring your, you know, significant other

who may not be as enthusiastic about driving all day as you are.

And so, you know, there were two two-night stays, which is kind of luxurious.

So, you get to go back, you don't have to bring your stuff with you a couple of days,

which was nice, and they made sure that every hotel that we stayed at had a spa

in the event that your co-driver may be interested in not attending driving one day or cutting out.

And they also tried to make lunch be within 30 or 45 minutes of the hotel

so that if you had, you know, maybe too much lunch and needed a nap that you could drive,

you could nap instead of drive the second half of the day.

So, there's all these concessions which, to us, are objectionable, like,

not hardcore enough, but this is, you know, that's not what this event is.

And so, it's thoughtfully planned.

The route, kind of, therefore, sort of doubled back on itself a lot in a way that

it was probably my biggest piece of feedback.

I get why they did it, you know, I'm not the target demographic for this event,

but I like the idea of sort of, we're going somewhere, we're covering some distance, you know,

in the Mielemilia you were doing a lap of Italy, basically,

or much of the boot part, not the foot part, but the leg part of the boot of Italy.

And the sensation of kind of going somewhere, I think, adds to the adventure

and it was sort of slightly less adventurous feeling to kind of just be looping constantly.

Well, the end was where?

The end was Callostoga.

So, that's still 200 miles from the start.

Yeah, but, I mean, we covered most of that in a single day.

So, found a couple of new roads and interesting roads that was good too.

And what else to note, quite a bit of variety,

but maybe not as much as in years past when there were a lot of pre-war cars?

Five days?

It's four driving days.

Four driving days.

It's a lot.

250 miles a day.

Yeah, despite the fact that when you get there and there's like a fancy lunch that's all catered

and like beverages and everything is all very, no drinking during the day,

that was something that was removed from the California Miele program some years ago for obvious reasons.

When an insurance company took it over?

I mean, it might have predated that even, but yes.

But yeah, there were some concerns, those different times, you know, 25, 30 years ago,

people would maybe over refresh at lunch.

So, but anyway, like everything's all sort of set up for you and very sort of planned out

and very sort of curated, but you still it's fatiguing to be in these cars all day long

and without air conditioning and lots of ambient noise.

Like five, six, seven hours of driving a day.

Stress, yeah.

You would be, you know, long day would be 300 miles and a short day would be like maybe

a shade under 200 miles.

Yeah, you're not doing 98 miles an hour.

Yes, not average speed, for sure.

That was a little incriminating, wasn't it?

No, it wasn't.

I didn't know if you're talking about it.

So, yeah, that was all, so it's still quite fatiguing.

And, you know, every moment is sort of planned out for you.

There's very little downtime to do much of anything and a couple of surprise and delight moments.

I believe that this was the CEO of Haggardy's wife's idea that started as a joke,

but then they executed it as a real thing, which was drive through oyster tasting and non-alcoholic,

accompanied by non-alcoholic champagne.

And so they set that up.

And you like turn up at these random places and there's like port-a-potties there.

I mean, it's really like the attention did you take?

Port-a-potties or trailers.

They're trailers, you know, like at the kind you would see at like a fancy car auction,

type of situation.

No, it wasn't a honey bucket.

A honey bucket in.

Andy Gump, or was that the other name?

Is it?

That's not something I've seen here.

It may be regional.

No, so how?

Is it?

We just, hold on.

We just had one.

No, here we have the honey bucket.

Honey bucket is the brand that I'm using seeing.

So that's all like incredibly well thought out and prepared and like these sort of little surprise and delight moments and stuff like that.

We spent relatively little time at the coast this year.

Sometimes you spend more time at the coast.

And it was of course entirely sucked in with fog the entire times.

It was good that we were away from the coast for most of the time.

But they're cooler.

A lot of times ones are inland.

It's really hot, right?

Yes, which we did experience.

And in these cars without our conditioning and some cars that, you know, don't have the best cooling capacity,

you want to be in motion as much as you can.

Are you finding it?

I will find it.

There we go.

Yes, Andy Gump.

Andy Gump.

Is that a trade name or is that actually a person's name?

Hold on, I'm zooming.

Another Andy Gump.

Name.

Oh, that looks like a local business.

The signage looks like a local business.

1892927755.

That's right.

Another Andy Gump to take a dim number.

Honey Buck is also disgusting.

Yes.

I think Porta John.

That's less disgusting.

Anyway, so you were...

By the way, that dumpster that Porta Party was filmed while you were luxuriating in beautiful trailers of...

Yes.

That's why I was in the desert.

I've put in some desert to highlight the fact that you should be wearing this.

I've put in some desert time as well.

So, yes.

I highly recommend it.

I mean, it's...

Generally, there's other things about it that are very similar to a rally that you're like,

oh, all rallies.

This sort of sensation of, how do you put this?

A shared experience sort of brings people together, you know, a common interest.

And this was something that repeatedly would come up in meals where people would be nerding out about something just deeply like car nerdy.

And you'd be like, everyone would be like, oh, it's so nice to be in a situation where I can like...

Like, let my freak flag fly and be a true car nerd because normally this stuff gets bottled up because you can't deploy it at a normal, like, social function.

And to be at a social function where, like, that's the result that's red, like, that's pretty cool.

And everyone appreciates that.

And the shared experiences of, you know, people helping each other out when they're on the side of the road.

Or, I mean, there's less of that because there's a mechanics team.

That's the nicest part.

I mean, you know, I could deal without the oysters.

I could deal without the, you know, the spa.

But to have a roving mechanic following...

And a tow truck?

A tow truck afterwards.

I mean, think of all the times that we've had roadside mayhem, we're weighted six days for a tow truck.

And now...

I know.

And so, yeah, that part was very luxurious, for sure.

But the sort of camaraderie of the shared experience.

And especially the mandatory adventure of doing this in old cars, unites people.

And, you know...

So, if you had to do it again, so, would you, if I said, you've been invited on the California melee,

you can choose any car you want from the 1980s.

80s.

70s.

60s.

Where do you think that cars looking backwards got unreliable and shitty enough that it turns that travel?

Like...

The reason I ask, you can get a 1988 Honda Accord.

You know that thing will do 50 million million years without so much as a stumble.

Yeah.

Right?

You want that, right?

You want...

You want to have to...

You paid for that.

You paid for it.

Except for the time that we did this.

And I was like, oh, I'll choose an 80s Mercedes, because we'll definitely complete this rally.

And without incident, it went very poorly for me with my 190E in Europe.

And...

We made it.

We did.

Yes.

That it required some intervention.

Some.

The brakes were on fire more than once.

Yeah.

So, they were on smoke.

They weren't on fire.

And so, you know, you'd think, with the 80s, you have a sporting chance of probably making it without incident.

I think you'd probably have to be in the era of non-electronic ignition.

And carburetors.

Yeah.

And malaise was generally the car for garbage.

So I'd say the 80s is probably the inflection point.

So you would...

You would do that...

You think this event would be just as much fun in a 70s car?

I think there's a pretty good chance of it.

There are other events that are sort of...

Ah!

Gesundheit.

There are other events that are like this that have a different cutoff.

There's a car autogrammed, which is 1960.

So you get three whole additional years.

So that doesn't really materially change things.

There is the copper state, which I think is 1974-75.

And I think you have the similar level of not guaranteed completion.

Right.

So I think, yeah, with a 70s car, you'd probably have a similar level of adventure guaranteed.

You know, we repeatedly were thinking about what is the ideal car to do this in...

That was my next question, obviously.

Yeah.

It's going to be a 300 S.

Yeah.

It's just...

It's kind of the uniform, you know?

Everybody has a 300 S.

Thank you.

It's one of the most...

It's one of the more in your 9-11.

Yeah, I know.

Except for going on a driving event.

Because then it's like, I'm enjoying the drive enough that like this is worth it for me.

But it would be far too capable for this event.

Would it not?

Yeah, I mean, if you had an early one with four and a half inch wheels and stuff like that, it would be pretty entertaining.

But yeah, it depends on what your objectives are.

You know, if you're living for the moments when you have clear road,

then you want something with a little bit of horsepower so you can get around the slow movers.

Because we were definitely peddling pretty hard at times,

trying to pull off passes of people in 300 S.

Who have 100 more horsepower than we do.

But they're doodling.

But in the straight line, they're like, I'm being overtaken.

I can't allow that.

You know, like, not that bad, but definitely a moment where like in a 1500 CC car,

you're like, it's got to be very deliberate when you orchestrate a pass.

Were there any sort of suggestions made to the competitors about like,

hey, if somebody's on your ass.

Participants.

Not competitors.

Sorry, participants.

But we did win.

I mean, we left lunch first on the last day.

So we were the first car to complete the, and we didn't cut off any,

they're not actually scoring.

No, no, no, they're not scoring, but we were.

But they do like these sort of loops, you know,

where you're like, if you want an additional 45 minutes of great roads,

make a left here and do this loop, and then you'll rejoin.

Which is cool because you get to do extra driving.

But it also means that if you were at the front of the pack

and then there's people who bypass the loop, then you end up stuck in traffic again.

And that was like another sort of organizational annoyance for us

because we would try to be up ahead of the pack.

And then we'd also try to do the whole route.

And so you end up in the middle of sort of cruisers as a result of that.

And so that was like, but I get the idea,

the ability to cut off a lobe of the day and expedite to the lunch stop

or the whatever is the value of that outweighs the concerns of the marginal group

of people at the margins like us who were trying to cover all miles and haul ass.

But we did do every mile on the event, which I think most people didn't at some point they'd go back.

So the 990 was including all of it.

The entire programmed route, yes.

Which we did do.

So, yeah, the ideal car, you know,

the Juliet is wonderful for that.

It's just a little low on power, but it revs high and it's happy to run at a high RPM.

But, you know, you get out horse powered.

The Ferrari's are a little too big and maybe not agile.

I mean, on some of this really tight stuff, especially with drum brakes, you know,

the 50s are, I thought they're bulky.

Yeah, they seem small, I guess.

Yeah, they don't feel like it when you're driving them.

Certainly not compared to an alpha.

The alpha is really light steering.

You know, it's not fatiguing.

The Ferrari has kind of heavy steering.

And so that gets tiring if you're on a tight road all day long, you know.

300 SLs are good also, but also maybe even a little ponderous,

but still a very good option.

356s, you know, especially if you have one that has horse power,

which you can certainly hot rod your way into.

But if you want, like, marks for originality,

like, I would be,

Lancia Aurelia Fiat Ottovu.

There was one Fiat Ottovu there with the Gato bodywork that just was spectacular.

And the guy has a bunch of other super cool cars.

And he's a year older than me.

So he's one of the younger attendees for sure.

94.

Yeah, 94 instead of 95.

And yeah, so I would want to be in something like that.

I would actually, especially if you're trying to sort of calm the pace down

and be entertained at lower speeds than the obvious choice is pre-war.

And I would love to do this in a pre-war.

You know, probably the first choice would be an alpha 60, 1750.

It would be like my choice.

But I would be tempted by a BMW 328,

because that's also very easy to drive pre-war car.

Maybe too easy.

Jagass S100 would also be quite neat, I think.

I don't know, depends on whether you want to be an individual or you want

just the car that gives you the best experience.

AC Bristol, I think, would also be pretty interesting,

which is the car that the Cobra was re-engineed to become the Cobra,

with a Ford engine, but it used to have any number of British supplied engines.

British and German supplied.

The Bristol engine was a BMW engine that the Bristol took after the war.

I don't know if it was an under-license because they took it from the Germans

at the end of the war.

So yeah, it's quite the event.

I would certainly do it again.

It's a compliment rather than a substitute for the type of rallying that we do.

But there are definitely similarities in terms of finding a good section of road

with nobody on it where you can haul the mail if you're interested

and sort of this rally as a social activity.

That is the thing that we talk about our own events.

And it is something that if you haven't done one of these before

and you like cars and I think everyone should do some format of rally event

where it's a casual drive like this or something more intentional or concerted

or however you want to phrase it, it's really one of the most fun car activities you can do.

And it's nice to see the cars getting used because especially of this area,

people are less inclined to use the car, especially the valuable ones.

I mean there were some four or five million dollar cars out there getting driven in the real world

and you're just like these people should be commended for driving and using these cars.

And the eligibility for this event because it's over subscribed,

they have to turn people away despite the cost.

But there's demand to do this event.

And I think that these events like this, especially that specify a certain age cutoff,

they are keeping the demand alive for these cars because a lot of the appeal of these cars

is having something to do with it, somewhere to go with it.

And this event certainly does do that.

And so it's a big part of maybe maintaining values and it's certainly a sales point.

I mean people will approach me and say, I want a car to do this event

and like let me know if you come across something suitable and they're not like super set on this car or that car,

it's more like I want to be able to attend this.

Some of the historic races, right?

Yes, definitely.

All right, so if you had to take one thing away from this that you could apply to our rallies,

a lesson learned or a feature or oysters or whatever it is,

what would you say for somebody who can't go to the caliphon,

do you mean they can't afford it or they can't get into it?

I don't know.

I'm an eligible car.

Add this one feature to your...

Well, it's...

I mean the most obvious one would be the roadside support and that adds cost.

And we can't...

So we can't really do that.

We all have had to do roadside.

That's the truth.

Thanks to our insurance policies, right?

But the tow truck is like doing the same route as the cars

and it's something that's behind you, right?

And now we have satellite phones.

Our iPhones all have satellites over so that hopefully will...

Yes.

Something we will never need.

Yes.

So that was luxurious.

I try to do this when I plan routes if I can,

but if it means doing a great road, then I will not do it.

But like returning to the same place and sort of not having to constantly be on a move

and be rallying with your luggage on board and all that tools,

all that stuff necessarily is maybe helpful.

And if tools, then you don't have...

Yes, but...

That's true.

And we did use ours, but we had a pretty light tool arrangement

and it was largely okay.

I had made a couple of notes of things to bring.

It was kind of one of the nice things about having cars,

the shape of most of my cars with trunks and hatchbacks and waggings and stuff like that

is that I can travel.

And the last big, big trip I did was now...

We're coming on 10 years.

It was, what, 16 or 17?

Where I took the Shorako and drove it to Ohio and then from here...

I think it was a total of 5,500 miles I did.

But I had...

I almost put a spare transmission in the trunk.

I mean, I was so convinced it was going to break.

And then the joke was that two miles after I said to my buddy Mike Musto

that I'm like, I'm really genuinely considering pulling out the transmission out of the cabriolet,

cleaning it, putting it in the trunk of the Shorako and bringing it on the trip,

because I'm convinced it's going to go 2.3 miles later that transmission exploded.

Before you left, before I left.

So I did manage to find a new old stock transition to put in there,

but I really do travel.

When on big, long trips like that, I had radiator, alternator, water pump, belts,

timing belt, timing belt kit, the whole...

I mean, you name it.

I need to distribute her fuel pumps, both of them.

Ignition computer, fuel injection computer, you...

I mean, anything that could really kill the car.

Yeah.

Because who wants to be stuck on the side of the road in...

East, nowhere.

Yeah.

Or West, nowhere.

Yeah.

Downtown, nowhere.

Downtown, nowhere is easier.

Yes.

There's probably an app of auto.

We did have to go to...

Oh, we'd had some issues with the alpha.

Generally, it was excellent, but...

So it was interesting to observe how differently prepared these cars are.

Some people just pull it out.

Every time I go to get coffee and it's fine,

and they try to do 1,000 miles in it.

And then you end up with the 4-day rowing restoration.

And then other people are pretty methodical about prepping the car

or having more realistically, having someone prep the car for them.

But, you know, Taz was working on the...

In his dad, we're working on the car for probably two or three months prior

to make sure that everything was sorted.

There was one sort of persistent problem with the car,

which was that at cruising speeds on the highway,

the car would run out of fuel.

And the carburetor bolts...

Because you didn't put fuel in it?

You know, the carb...

Like after a minute at cruising speeds,

the carburetor bolts would empty.

And the fuel pump was basically sensitive to voltage.

And the car was not supplying voltage suitable for this modern electric fuel pump

to deliver enough fuel in a high demand situation,

because it's a 1500cc car.

It's quite a bit of throttle to be maintaining 70 or 80 miles an hour on the highway.

And they spent like a least a month chasing that down.

And eventually I think the combination of rewiring it

and a voltage regulator fixed it.

But then there were too many things on that circuit.

And so we would periodically in response,

possibly there was a short or something,

in response to like a particularly hard landing after a bump,

the fuse would blow.

And so we were running kind of at the tempo of three to four fuses a day,

depending on the... the bumpiness of the roads.

And after a bump,

because there was a short, I think, in the ignition switch,

and it was jostling the wires in a way that eventually was shorted.

And it didn't matter how many amps of a fuse we put in,

it would blow regardless because it was such a...

So torpedo fuses, which are the same ones that Mercedes used through the 80s

into the 90s, is what the car has.

But those are not sold.

We learned at O'Reilly.

What were to be found these days?

They had them out in the back at Napa Auto Parts.

And so we bought like 20 of them.

Five J's worth.

Yeah, on...

This was probably the second, the morning of the second day,

I think it was.

And we would, you know, if the car turned...

It would turn the car off when the fuse blew.

And we reached the point where...

At one time, it happened on a downhill section.

And so...

Taz was able to install a new fuse while we were in motion

before the car came to a stop.

Where's the fuse block in my car?

It's above the driver's knee under the dashboard.

Oh, my God.

So he was able to reinstall...

By the end of it, we was able to do it in motion.

If you were on a downhill, if you're on level ground, probably not enough time.

But on a downhill, we did it.

And actually, the time that he successfully did it,

we were able to actually gain on the car in front of us

while the engine was off and the fuse insulation was occurring.

So, you know, old car stuff.

Old cars.

And then on the last day, the starter failed.

So we were bump starts only from there.

That's why you want a light car.

Yes.

And park on a hill, which we did do.

So those were the only issues.

The car was otherwise faultless.

We discovered a couple of discovered.

Was introduced to a couple of really great new roads.

Most of the roads I had been on were aware of,

but there were a couple of really great new roads

that I learned about from this.

So that was...

So I think what you're saying is we are going to recreate the carmogen melee.

Yeah.

Highlights on the same...

Okay.

Highlight roads.

Because there were some stuff where you're like,

oh, this is boring transit.

It's too fast.

There's not always a case.

Yeah.

But when I plan around,

I aim for 85 plus 90% of good roads

and the requirements opposed by having a five-star hotel

and a swanky lunch establishment

and being able to accommodate 90 vehicles,

including all the support vehicles,

put a lot of constraints on the route

that made it necessary to do more transit

than I would have liked.

And it's just that trade-off you have to make of like,

well, we need to accommodate this many people at this level.

Like, you just can't be in East Nowhere or West Hell

because there's nowhere to put 90 people in a five-star there

because there's no five-star anywhere.

But 10 of us in a shithole.

Yeah.

Then we can get into some of the gruvier roads that we really like.

And so net net, you know, I like...

I would make that trade.

I don't need the champagne and all that stuff.

But they're, like I said, compliments.

Do we have a drive-through in and out?

Yeah.

Okay.

I think most people can.

In California, as long as they have a car,

you can have a drive-through.

I just want to make a trashy muleo-no.

Like, you know.

Like, just one better than the muley.

Or trash.

1,001.

Right.

1,001.

And you reverse the 57 to a 75.

So the car is going to be older, 75 or older,

which I think that would be demand for that.

And, you know, given the fact that it was over-subscribed,

and then, you know, it's limited by the age of the cars,

and it's still over-subscribed.

If you opened this up and other...

Give it another 20 years, I think, and did a similar event.

You would have.

They would be so much demand for something like that.

And so, you know, I could certainly see some opportunity there.

It's nice to get to share...

You know, people come from all over the country.

I mean, Maryland and Hawaii and the Northeast.

Long drive from Hawaii.

Yeah.

Not long and rusty.

So, I mean, it's an attraction.

People make it a point to go there.

And so, if you opened it to newer cars, I'm sure that would be demand.

I'm sorry that I missed it this year.

I typically will intersect with the cars at some point.

Yeah.

And just go and look.

Yeah.

It's very cool to see them all.

And, like, getting used is so weird,

because normally, you see them in static contexts.

Cool.

So, I highly recommend it.

If for some reason it's an option or you're able,

I think it's a pretty singular experience that does...

You know, the most important thing was that it created that sense of comradery

and shared experience that to me is the magic of a rally event.

And that gives you that...

Anything that gives you the calm down afterwards where you're like...

Sitting at my desk.

And there's nothing to do with my feet.

There's no clutching or anything like that.

You know, I hate this.

So, yeah, it definitely creates that.

And I mean, lots of cool people...

Because it takes a certain person.

You know, it's not going to be the frumpiest or stodgiest of old car people

because they're not going to sign up for that.

And there's lots of events like this in Europe,

fewer in the United States, which is a shame.

But there are some.

For sure.

Geography is so huge.

That's why California is so well-suited to it

because you can cover a lot of interesting miles on great roads.

Right.

I did one rally in Florida.

Oh my god.

It's the orange blossom rally done by the grassroots motor sports guys.

I mean, then you just need like an incredibly fast car on a...

You know, even better.

I was at a Mazda Cosmo.

It's incredibly unreliable car.

We broke down 20, 30 times a day.

It was fun.

It was genuinely fun.

Holy shit, they made it.

And we had one of the stages was a lap of the banking at Daytona.

Ash we didn't do.

Because the car was the banking and cranked cranked cranked cranked cranked

and right when it was done, the fucking thing finally fired.

So we didn't get to do it.

All of these rallies are always...

Yes.

When they wind up being about the people.

Yes.

And the cars bring the people together.

And that's a strange thing for...

To say, to understand, because we're car people.

I hate people.

Yes.

And yet you come away from these events.

Meeting really cool people.

Yes.

Definitely some cool people.

Some duds.

I mean, it happens anytime.

You get 90 people or wherever many people.

More than 90.

Because you include plus ones.

Which most cars were double.

So they were 90.

81 cars.

Most of which were double occupancy.

So it's a lot of humans.

A lot of cars.

A lot of humans.

A lot of cars.

It's a lot of potential for people to see.

Definitely attrition.

There was definitely attrition.

How many cars did you know?

I don't.

But definitely some cars where I would look back at photos from the first day.

And they were like, I don't ever remember seeing that car after the first day.

And substitutions.

You know, if your car fails to proceed.

Oh, that's the other thing.

The luxurious thing was Alfa Romeo is a sponsor.

And they would give you a Julia loner if your car failed to complete the day.

With a joke there as a thing.

If you had a Julia quadrifoli, it would have also failed.

Yes.

I'd actually never heard that joke being made.

But I'm sure a lot of people were thinking it.

My old, my 1950, whatever, and stuff.

Better not break down.

Or I'm going to be broken down to the 2025 Alfa.

Yeah.

They're not that bad.

And people would sub in various cars if theirs failed to proceed.

If they had something handy nearby, we provided a loner car that was from the 70s.

And one guy trucked down a replacement for his car after his car failed on the first day.

So you know, you make it happen.

Yeah, it was a guy in a modern Ferrari who is obviously a substitution and a guy in a Porsche 993.

So the group gets increasingly sort of less orderly and more like

discordant as time progresses.

Cool.

Well, I hope to go next year.

Yes.

I hope to do that at some point.

Certainly worth attending.

You do a live podcast.

A thousand mile live podcast next year.

In the car.

Yeah.

I think it would be valuable.

And I'm replacing a fuse.

Yes.

It's just a vlog.

Yeah.

It would be a vlog of like, well, now we're stuck on the road doing this.

Or that.

Yeah, I did this once with in the Bay Bradley, which is a big apple to Big Easy.

That was a.

So I love that your latest experience is the most prestigious rally in the country.

And my favorite was the two was a 200 bucks or 500 bucks.

$500 shipbox rally was a Bay Bradley big apple to Big Easy.

And we've talked about this in the past where we got a $400 Cadillac stretch limo.

I was an 83 caddy stretch limo.

We had to make it from New York to New Orleans and broke down.

Yes.

400,000 times.

You're trying to.

In costume and you know.

Yeah.

It was amazing.

Trying to create opportunity for chaos, basically controlled chaos.

That's what all of this is in some sense.

But the Bay Bradley really should have had mechanics on site.

Yeah.

And trailers, because we all did break a lot.

Yeah.

Whatever.

It's, you know, whether you're rich or poor, chaos is fun.

Yes.

That's right.

Take away.

Okay.

Thanks for joining us.

We'll be back next week probably.

Hopefully.

Okay.

Driving 1000 Miles In A 70-year old car — Carmudgeon Show Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep. 193

About this episode

Porsche GT4

Mercedes-Benz C43

Chrysler Indy car

Fiat 1100

Bentley

Volkswagen Cabriolet

Mazda Cosmo

Request an Explanation

Want to learn more?

Help improve this episode

More from The Carmudgeon Show